DELTA vs SWA from another thread....

[General Lee]

It didn't know you meant the contractual raises. I thought you meant bigger raises like AA is trying to negotiate.

Good on you for posting facts.

Everything I post is the truth, 100% of the time.... Anyway, I think we will try to get a larger raise, and if we are doing well at the time it might be easier.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

It has already come true, the only reason SW is not in the red right now is because they have enough cash on hand to pay down debts. They had $4 billion in cash and investments at the start of 2005, today they have $1.7 billion in cash and none in investments. After the rest of this years stock buy backs and equipment updates, they will have zero cash on hand. A total loss of $4 billion over the last 3 years just like every other airline.

Things SW normally pays cash for, i.e. airplanes, ground equipment, gates, advertising fees, office supplies, investments, gates, maintenance parts, stock buy backs, etc... will all enter the cash flow and become long term debt. The cash flow however will be in the red in 2008 leading to an almost certain bankruptcy by 2009 or so.

I recommend this post as a contender for "Stoopidest Post of the Year."

 

[CF34-3B1]

so do 5 legs a day with 25 minute turns.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I try to stay out of the whole my airline can beat up your airline thing, but this is the one SWA bashing line that just never made even a little bit of sense to me.

Are you guys saying you would RATHER have 45 min or an hour + turns with multiple aircraft swaps?

You don't get paid for airport sit time.

It lengthens your duty day.

The airplane (and crew) doesn't generate revenue sitting at the gate.

I don't get it.........

If you want to fly over the pond, fine, you know where to go.

If you hate LBB so much it actually factors into a career decision for you, fine, great, you know where not to go.

But how can quick turns possibly be a negative and long airport sits a posivitve?

Some one explain please. (And use small words for all us dumb TX pilots)

 

[Widow's Son]

I haven't read all these posts, but here is how I would answer the original question.

I would look at the fleet composition and order/option book and identify where the airplane is that is going to upgrade me and where the money is going to come from to buy that precious airplane. I would also make sure that an appropriate adjustment was made for large blocks of airplanes in the fleet that are getting due to go away.

True quality of life comes from the bidding power of seniority and the largess of the left seat. In other words, it is better to be a 250k Captain laying on the beach in San Diego or Ft Lauderdale on a weekday than an 125k FO laying on the beach in Europe or South America over the holidays.

 

[General Lee]

I haven't read all these posts, but here is how I would answer the original question.

I would look at the fleet composition and order/option book and identify where the airplane is that is going to upgrade me and where the money is going to come from to buy that precious airplane. I would also make sure that an appropriate adjustment was made for large blocks of airplanes in the fleet that are getting due to go away.

True quality of life comes from the bidding power of seniority and the largess of the left seat. In other words, it is better to be a 250k Captain laying on the beach in San Diego or Ft Lauderdale on a weekday than an 125k FO laying on the beach in Europe or South America over the holidays.

You sound like a genius, not. You don't know what Delta's future plans are. Sounds like there could be huge growth. Then, you would be totally wrong. And I guess you don't like variety, either. Go ahead, start off your career in ELP and end it there too. How long again would it take you to get $250,000 a year at SWA and get weekends off with SAN or FLL layovers? You think a few years... Right. You could be in Paris within the first year at Delta. (not Paris, TX)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ivauir]

You sound like a genius, not. You don't know what Delta's future plans are. Sounds like there could be huge growth. Then, you would be totally wrong. And I guess you don't like variety, either. Go ahead, start off your career in ELP and end it there too. How long again would it take you to get $250,000 a year at SWA and get weekends off with SAN or FLL layovers? You think a few years... Right. You could be in Paris within the first year at Delta. (not Paris, TX)

Bye Bye--General Lee

I was in SAN my second month at SWA. I go to LBB so rarly that I have no idea what the runway layout is or what hotel we use.

If anybody is spouting off what they don't know about it is you El General. I try to be even handed in these things, but your continual misrepresentation of QOL at SWA ticks me off. You either don't understand, refuse to understand or intentionally mislead people about what working for SWA is like.

Delta's "plans"? Common, didn't Delta "plan" to pay pensions? Didn't Delta "plan" to dominate the LCC market place with Song? I hate to get dragged down to your level, but SWA's plans have a lot more credibility than Delta's.

If you want great QOL, pay and security go to SWA. If you want to buy a lottery ticket go to Delta. It might pay big ....

 

[puddlejumper101]

You sound like a genius, not. You don't know what Delta's future plans are. Sounds like there could be huge growth. Then, you would be totally wrong. And I guess you don't like variety, either. Go ahead, start off your career in ELP and end it there too. How long again would it take you to get $250,000 a year at SWA and get weekends off with SAN or FLL layovers? You think a few years... Right. You could be in Paris within the first year at Delta. (not Paris, TX)

Bye Bye--General Lee

A few years?? try a few months...as far as the schedule goes. $250,000 might take as long as DAL...but FLL and SAN with weekends off?? Less than a year General...and I should know.

 

[General Lee]

I was in SAN my second month at SWA. I go to LBB so rarly that I have no idea what the runway layout is or what hotel we use.

If anybody is spouting off what they don't know about it is you El General. I try to be even handed in these things, but your continual misrepresentation of QOL at SWA ticks me off. You either don't understand, refuse to understand or intentionally mislead people about what working for SWA is like.

Delta's "plans"? Common, didn't Delta "plan" to pay pensions? Didn't Delta "plan" to dominate the LCC market place with Song? I hate to get dragged down to your level, but SWA's plans have a lot more credibility than Delta's.

If you want great QOL, pay and security go to SWA. If you want to buy a lottery ticket go to Delta. It might pay big ....

I can belt out all of the rumors, but that probably wouldn't be a good idea. To say that we will not get back to our past glory is like saying you will always have your high pay. You never know. But, I do know somethings about Southwest that you cannot refute. You will be flying a 737 for the rest of your career (no orders for anything different), domestically (Kelly said ATA might be doing some INTL stuff). with multiple legs per day (more of those days than 1 leg days for sure), and 25 minute turns. (according to Kelly) If that sounds fun to you, then go for Southwest. The pay is great currently, and the stews can be fun.

If you want to a chance to see the world on the companies' dime, fly a variety of aircraft that can give you different lifestyles, at good rates that have to go up eventually, then go to Delta.


There Ivauir, did I hurt your feelings again? Anything up there that I said wrong? Correct me please.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

A few years?? try a few months...as far as the schedule goes. $250,000 might take as long as DAL...but FLL and SAN with weekends off?? Less than a year General...and I should know.

Wow, same can happen at DL depending on your base. And a couple newhires already bid the INTL 767 at Delta and will be doing Paris, Budapest, Rome, Athens, Venice, Nice, Milan, Frankfurt, Bucharest, Pisa, Moscow, Kiev, Barcelona, Madrid, Shannon, Dublin, Manchester, Brussels, Amsterdam, Berlin, Istanbul, and beautiful Accra within 6 months. (we are also adding 13-15 more 757ERs to JFK by next Summer, so they should be line holders by then and we will probably add places like Oslo, Stockholm, etc) They can see FLL and SAN later in their 25 year careers. Less than a year puddle, and if they don't like it they can bid domestic and see Anchorage, San Diego, San Francisco, etc....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mdf]

deleted...not worth the bandwidth.

 

[ivauir]

There Ivauir, did I hurt your feelings again? Anything up there that I said wrong? Correct me please.......

No hurt feelings, I'm just keeping you honest, because you are unable to do so yourself.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Sounds like there could be huge growth<<

I'll bet those sounds get louder the closer to the men's room you stand.

Huge growth takes two things.

1. Money
2. Airplanes

1. Money. You don't have any. Fresh out of BK you still have 8 Billion (with a "B") dollars in debt. That takes approximately a billion dollars a year off the bottom line JUST FOR DEBT SERVICE. You can always borrow more but your interest rates are junk because your credit rating is junk.
What about the equity markets? Well your Market Cap is half what your outstanding debt is and your debt to equity ratio is in the same men's room the growth sounds are eminating from. Your financial state is best summarized by a little hand written sign at the Burger King in PHL. It states that they will no longer accept food vouchers from Delta Airlines.

2. Airplanes. You currently have approximately 135 gas guzzling, skin cracking, ain't worth d!ck on the used market, MD's that provide work for 1300 of your pilots. When the next fuel spike inevitably happens, guess where those Maddogs and their 1300 jobs are going. Hint: Google search "Marana". In a few years you can crush a little piece of history into your forehead after a cool refreshing Coors light.
While it is true that you have a handful of shiney new 777's coming at a blistering rate of two a year, it is also true that you have almost 40 firm orders for fuel efficient B737-800's that are worth so much on the market that you are selling those 400 jobs, oops I mean, purchase options on the open "healthy" market for a profit. Apparently you need the cash bump and the avoidance of capital expenditure more than new jobs, oops I mean, fuel efficient airplanes.
Even if you could muster up the cash and credit to buy new airplanes, the order books for Boeing and Airbus are several years booked out, so grab a number quick.
Not all is bleak however, I have seen many news items concerning new flights and growth that Delta is starting. You just open the news story and read a bit and find out that it is actually SkyWest who can both get the airplanes and afford to pay for them.

 

[momalley81]

I know two people who left Delta and have now been flying with SWA for about a year.

One was a 9 year JFK Based International B-767 FO.

Another was a 25 Year International B-767 Captain. He retired early to protect his A fund and came to SWA at the age of 56 to pull the gear.

Flying heavies international can only go so far. The way you are treated by your company, your pay, and your QOL are much more important.

Some think it is better at Delta, some think it is better at SWA. However, I do find it ironic that 2 tenured Delta Pilots left to come to SWA because they stated that Delta "was a lost cause." Who knows if they will be right in the end.

 

[General Lee]

No hurt feelings, I'm just keeping you honest, because you are unable to do so yourself.

You guys love to say that, but then never put up any of your own proof. I don't care what you say, you are lying if you say you don't fly a lot of legs per trip. Sure, some days may only have a couple, or maybe even ONE (wow). Most have a lot, and those trips are meant to be productive, but that also means exhausting. (unless you are Superman) You might be able to handle it now early on, but in 10 or 15 years, those 25 minute turns and multiple legs are going to get to you. To say otherwise is LYING. The regionals have the same type of schedule usually, and most people want to get out of the regionals. Your AVERAGE schedule is like a high paying regional. But, there is NO DOUBT you guys have fun people there. That is great. And the current high pay is FANTABULOUS. I hope it always stays that way, or there will be a run for the door.

Tell me what I am lying about please. And remember, I have friends over there and can give you examples of recent trips if you want. One friend based in OAK on his last day of a 4 day went LAX--PHX--SNA--SMF--SNA--OAK in one day. No thanks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

I know two people who left Delta and have now been flying with SWA for about a year.

One was a 9 year JFK Based International B-767 FO.

Another was a 25 Year International B-767 Captain. He retired early to protect his A fund and came to SWA at the age of 56 to pull the gear.

Flying heavies international can only go so far. The way you are treated by your company, your pay, and your QOL are much more important.

Some think it is better at Delta, some think it is better at SWA. However, I do find it ironic that 2 tenured Delta Pilots left to come to SWA because they stated that Delta "was a lost cause." Who knows if they will be right in the end.

Wow, that guy came to SWA at age 56? How does he like 4-6 legs per day with 25 minute turns? Does he look forward to doing those flights for the rest of his career (hopefully not to age 65)? At that age I'd rather play golf after that many years of flying. The SWA pilots I know seem to be exhausted all the time... Thank god they make good money.

As for Delta's financial situation, Delta is in the best position of any legacy carrier in terms of its balance sheet. It reduced a HUGE amount of debt and legacy costs (i.e., pilot pensions) and now it is in a great position to grow its international network even more. How will it do this? Currently adding ETOPS 757s from AA/TWA and more 777s and future 787s on order. All or most 767-400s and 767-300s will be used for less-competitive international routes. Adding 737-700s with winglets that can be used for Mexico, Caribbean and some Latin America. Delta's margins on international flights are huge. I would say that Delta's financial situation will be improving because bankruptcy has freed it from a lot of the legacy cost burdens (renegotiated the majority of airplane leases as well) that other airlines must bare.

Widow's Son, next time you mention "crap financials," you need to back that up with facts.........

 

[General Lee]

deleted...not worth the bandwidth.

So says a guy who can't debate.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I know two people who left Delta and have now been flying with SWA for about a year.

One was a 9 year JFK Based International B-767 FO.

Another was a 25 Year International B-767 Captain. He retired early to protect his A fund and came to SWA at the age of 56 to pull the gear.

Flying heavies international can only go so far. The way you are treated by your company, your pay, and your QOL are much more important.

Some think it is better at Delta, some think it is better at SWA. However, I do find it ironic that 2 tenured Delta Pilots left to come to SWA because they stated that Delta "was a lost cause." Who knows if they will be right in the end.

A lot of guys left when there was a lot of uncertainty in the beginning of BK, and when our old management was bailing with their own pensions. Those guys will grow tired quickly of their multiple leg days with 25 minute turns. That ex JFK 767 FO will dream of past layovers in Nice, Barcelona, and new ones he could have tried, like Pisa, Budapest, and Kiev. Oh well, enjoy ELP.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

>>Sounds like there could be huge growth<<

I'll bet those sounds get louder the closer to the men's room you stand.

Huge growth takes two things.

1. Money
2. Airplanes

1. Money. You don't have any. Fresh out of BK you still have 8 Billion (with a "B") dollars in debt. That takes approximately a billion dollars a year off the bottom line JUST FOR DEBT SERVICE. You can always borrow more but your interest rates are junk because your credit rating is junk.
What about the equity markets? Well your Market Cap is half what your outstanding debt is and your debt to equity ratio is in the same men's room the growth sounds are eminating from. Your financial state is best summarized by a little hand written sign at the Burger King in PHL. It states that they will no longer accept food vouchers from Delta Airlines.

2. Airplanes. You currently have approximately 135 gas guzzling, skin cracking, ain't worth d!ck on the used market, MD's that provide work for 1300 of your pilots. When the next fuel spike inevitably happens, guess where those Maddogs and their 1300 jobs are going. Hint: Google search "Marana". In a few years you can crush a little piece of history into your forehead after a cool refreshing Coors light.
While it is true that you have a handful of shiney new 777's coming at a blistering rate of two a year, it is also true that you have almost 40 firm orders for fuel efficient B737-800's that are worth so much on the market that you are selling those 400 jobs, oops I mean, purchase options on the open "healthy" market for a profit. Apparently you need the cash bump and the avoidance of capital expenditure more than new jobs, oops I mean, fuel efficient airplanes.
Even if you could muster up the cash and credit to buy new airplanes, the order books for Boeing and Airbus are several years booked out, so grab a number quick.
Not all is bleak however, I have seen many news items concerning new flights and growth that Delta is starting. You just open the news story and read a bit and find out that it is actually SkyWest who can both get the airplanes and afford to pay for them.

You really are misinformed. We have plenty of orders that you do not know about. Those 737 orders were sold, and we promptly ordered 737-700s with winglets to do longer range missions. We are getting used 757ERs (15 of them) from AA and will be deploying them on Western Europe flights from JFK. We supposedly will be making an announcement for many widebody orders (a good rumor) soon. Here is part of an article for you to read:


Delta likely to order 787s this year, says CEO

By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter


Delta Air Lines will likely be the first of the big three U.S. legacy airlines to order Boeing's 787, chief executive Gerald Grinstein said Friday in Seattle.
The 74-year-old Grinstein, set to leave Delta this summer after guiding it through Chapter 11, said his successor will make any order decision — but he'd be surprised if the carrier doesn't buy its first Dreamliners by the end of the year.
In the last year Delta added more than 60 new international routes, which typically require long-range widebody jets.
Delta flies more than 100 mid-size 767 jets. Grinstein, in town for the Microsoft CEO summit, said in a brief interview that those planes need to be replaced starting as early as 2011.
"Of course, you could wait for the (Airbus) A350," he said, "But why?"
The new Boeing jet is "perfect" for the needs of the U.S. carriers, with the right size and the necessary range, he said. The bigger A350 rival that Airbus is proposing could be too big for many of the routes Delta wants to fly, Grinstein said.
"Boeing has got it right," he said..
Grinstein said he is not worried about the availability of delivery slots for the 787, because Boeing can always "miraculously" find slots when it needs them for a big order. The company does that either through keeping some delivery slots available for significant customers or by arranging for other airlines to defer their orders until later.


Here is another article for YOU.

Delta Looks To Fill Narrowbody Gap By 2010

Apr 24, 2007

By Lori Ranson/Aviation Daily

Delta hasn't begun a campaign to fill the gap between its
76-seat regional jets and 142-seat MD-80s, but its business
plan calls for 25 small-gauge narrowbodies by 2010.

The carrier is taking on 15 124-seat Boeing 737-700s, but
Chief Operating Officer Jim Whitehurst recently said those
aircraft are targeted for very specific performance-limited
airports, citing Vail, Mexico City and some islands in the
Caribbean, where the carrier currently has to fly 757s and
would like to have fewer seats or operate additional
frequencies.

The 737-700s slated for the targeted markets aren't viewed
as small-gauge, narrowbody aircraft. Whitehurst explained
that for markets such as Atlanta-Knoxville or -Buffalo,
Delta does have a gap between 76-seats and 142-seats, and
"we will look at all the alternatives out there to close
that gap."

Delta will also likely need to make a widebody replacement
decision within 12 months. Whitehurst pointed out the
airline probably won't need new aircraft until 2011 or 2012
-- the point Delta where will have exhausted its move of
widebody aircraft from domestic to international service. At
that time, Delta will need replacement of some of its older
767s, as well as additional growth.

Whitehurst noted one big benefit of the 787 -- an aircraft
Delta knows a lot about -- is not only economic gains from
replacing older planes but the 787's longer range


And another article for you:
Delta Returns to Trading
With Strong Balance Sheet

By THOMAS G. DONLAN
May 13, 2007

Pilots often say that any landing you walk away from is a good landing. By that standard, Delta Air Lines made a good landing into bankruptcy in 2005, for the company walked away from the wreckage and spread its wings for a new take-off this month.
Not so the old shareholders, who were wiped out. The 400 million new shares that opened for trading on the New York Stock Exchange May 3 were issued to former Delta unsecured creditors, employees, managers and the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.
Trading under the old ticker symbol, DAL, the shares finished last week at about $19. Over the next two quarters, however, the company should do well enough to justify a price closer to $25. Looking further ahead, two Morgan Stanley analysts may well be right when they say "buy on material weakness," and project a share price of $27 to $29.
Delta shed about $13 billion of debt and lease obligations, 6,000 people and 82 planes during its bankruptcy-law proceedings. It now has one of the stronger balance sheets in the industry. And it is looking to grow primarily on international routes, which can be more profitable than domestic business. Moreover, there's a general uptrend in the airline industry and summer is always its best period.
But Delta and all airlines are risky investments, highly vulnerable to slumps, terrorism, fuel-price increases and overcapacity. They face intense competition on key routes. They do well in good times and atrociously in bad times.
Delta's operating losses hit $3.3 billion in 2004 and $2 billion in 2005, before an operating profit of $58 million in 2006. For 2007, Delta projects a pretax profit of about $800 million -- about $2 a new share, meaning the shares are trading for about 10 times 2007 earnings.
Thomas G. Donlan is a staff writer at Barron's magazine, available online at www.barrons.com

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[momalley81]

A lot of guys left when there was a lot of uncertainty in the beginning of BK, and when our old management was bailing with their own pensions. Those guys will grow tired quickly of their multiple leg days with 25 minute turns. That ex JFK 767 FO will dream of past layovers in Nice, Barcelona, and new ones he could have tried, like Pisa, Budapest, and Kiev. Oh well, enjoy ELP.


Bye Bye--General Lee

How do you know he will get tired of SWA? Do you know who I am talking about?

 

[Whataburger]

I have flown a couple a 7leg day, a couple 6leg days, some 5 leg days, tons of 4 leg days, some 3leg days, and some 2leg days. I can honestly say that I have NEVER ended a day or a trip exhausted. This job is not rocket surgery. Checklist, push, fly, land, checklist, and repeat. I have flown with 20-25 year guys that are 55-59 and have NEVER heard one say he/she has been exhausted. At the end of the 4-5leg days I find myself saying, "Where'd the day go?" It goes very quickly. It's not for everyone, but it's for me because I dont mind work, I enjoy actuallyflying, and I enjoy working with people who want to be at work and enjoy it also.
I found international flying terribly boring. It's as braindead as any flying except for your ears have to be better to understand the way the rest of the world speaks English. -position report, sit for 1hr, postion report, sit for an hour, repeat. Go out after napping 'til noon, walk around in a daze around London, eat some overpriced fish and chips, sleep, come home.
And finally, if ya dont wanna work for your money, dont come here.