Delta TA on SCOPE

[nwaf16dude]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

This is cut&pasted from Dalpa's answer to that question...sorry about the formatting.

• Current PWA Limits
  •  No limit on propeller-driven aircraft up to 70 seats and 70,000 lbs.
  •  No limit on jet aircraft up to 50-seats and 65,000 lbs.
  o Currently at 343 50-seat jet aircraft
   No more than 255 70 and 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
  o Currently at 102 70-seat jet aircraft and 153 76-seat jet aircraft (total of 255)
  o Weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs.
   Baseline of 153 76-seat jet aircraft that may weigh up to 86,000 lbs.
  o 3 for 1 growth of 76 seat aircraft once there are more than 767 aircraft on the mainline. Up to a maximum of 255 76-seat aircraft
• 
  TA Limits
   End state cap of 450 DCI aircraft
  o Exception for propeller-driven or turboprop aircraft of up to 37 seats and/or 37,000 lbs.
  o Exception for Delta Private Jets of up to 19 seats and 65,000 lbs.  Five aircraft may weigh up to 99,900 lbs

o Exception for up to nine aircraft operated under a prorate agreement with Chautauqua Airlines or Shuttle America, seating capacity up to 44 seats and less than 65,000 lbs.



 End state cap of 125 50-seat aircraft of up to 65,000 lbs. based on ratio reduction o Company plans to have 343 50-seat jet aircraft on July 1, 2012


o Under TA, reduction of 50-seat aircraft based on deliveries of new 76-seat
aircraft
o Zero future growth allowed
 Immediate hard cap of 102 70-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
o Zero future growth allowed
 End state hard cap of 223 76-seat aircraft of up to 86,000 lbs.
o Existing weight exception for 36 Compass EMB-175 at 89,000 lbs. remains o Requires 1.25 SNB in fleet for each 76-seat aircraft added above current
153 in fleet up to maximum of 223
o This is a reduction of 32 76-seat aircraft from current PWA limit (based on
the current 3:1 growth metric and up to 255 76-seat aircraft)
o The combined cap on 70 and 76-seat aircraft increases to 325 (102 70-seat +
223 76-seat)
o Eliminates 3:1 growth over 767 mainline aircraft up to 255 o Zero future growth allowed



Delivery of additional 76-seat aircraft is prohibited until SNB aircraft are first added to the mainline fleet, and then, a simultaneous reduction of 50-seat aircraft is required. This is an event-based process and not time or date-based. As Delta implements their business plan and adds more SNBs, only then may they add more 76-seat aircraft, while also removing 50-seat aircraft. Once a 50-seat aircraft is removed, the number of allowable 50-seat aircraft is capped at that level until the next removal and so on. That cap can then never increase.
When the up-gauging is complete, the mainline share of domestic flying will have increasedfromthepresent54%to64%(basedonDelta’scurrentbusinessplan).



Put another way, this will result in a significant increase in mainline pilots’ share of Delta domestic flying.



As SNBs are added to the fleet, allowing faster access to the first additional 76-seat aircraft, a required minimum ratio of domestic mainline block hours to DCI block hours will be established and must be maintained. (For this purpose, domestic mainline block hours includes flying on all narrow body aircraft and all B-767-300 (non – ER) aircraft.) Under the minimum block hour ratio in this TA, Delta pilots will fly no less than 61% of the total Delta domestic system block hours once the last group of 76-seat aircraft are added. In other words, any reduction of domestic mainline block hours below a 1.56 ratio will trigger a mandatory reduction in DCI block hours in order to maintain the 1.56




ratio. Any future growth of Delta aircraft, will, by definition, be mainline growth. Even if Delta does not fully execute its business plan, we will have in place guarantees for our share of the domestic system flying, guarantees that do not exist under the current contract. We will be the only legacy airline pilot group that has gained domestic flying without flying small aircraft and/or agreeing to substantially lower pay rates or different work rules.

 

[JOPILOT]

It seems that the ratio of flying will swing in the DAL pilots favor with or without the approval of the TA since the economics of the 50 seat RJ are not sustainable. I see the purchase of the 717's as inevitable as well as the parking of DC-9's and other older A/C.

The scope limits are always changing with every TA so I do not see them as a victory as some have stated here.

I ultimately feel this TA is concesionary since we lose profit sharing just as Delta anticipates billions in profits, and would like to return to it's share holders. Pay raises in the TA will be paid for by the loss of profit sharing by the entire employee group which makes us less liked by our fellow employees ( I don't give a rip ). Reserve rule changes will eliminate a large portion of Green Slips, each day a GS is flown equals a 1% pay raise.

Last year I flew 9 days of Green and had a profit sharing check equal to a 4% raise,which if duplicated in 2012 ( of which I am on track) will equal a 13% raise. If we vote this in I will lose my remaining Greens and most likely a portion of the profit sharing.
As a junior line holder I do not see a lot of pay value in this TA and my quality of life on reserve if I choose is probably going to be lowered despite any raises, be it minimal.

I am strongly leaning toward a NO vote, I feel this is management's first offer and if it is rejected there will be an improved offer before Section 6 takes place. Risky but I feel a NO vote is the prudent vote.

JP

 

[aircombat]

I know pilots all think that the world revolves around them, but reality is quite different. Your pay rate is a tiny portion of the overall pie. What makes the regionals so cheap isn't just pilot pay rates, it's also benefits plans, corporate overhead, rampers, flight attendants, mechanics, customer service, etc. It is impossible for you to do the flying at mainline for as cheap as the regionals do it. Therefore, the only way to reign scope back in is to do it gradually at every legacy carrier until there is no outsourcing, leaving management without the problem of having to compete with other airlines that are able to outsource. If just one airline were to stop the outsourcing while the others did not, then they would be at a horrible competitive disadvantage.

Well if you believe it's impossible then it will be. I guess the vicious cycle will continue. We will just wait until the next Delta bankruptcy for you to blame why the regionals are flying so many 900s

 

[PCL_128]

Well if you believe it's impossible then it will be.

Prove me wrong, then. Explain how it's possible for mainline to fly the airplanes for the same cost.

 

[xjhawk]

Its not, All rates are higher than a regional airline. Pilots (rates and work rules), FA's, Mechanics etc. All lower costs for the 900 than if a mainline did it. Otherwise the regionals would not have been given that flying in the first place.

 

[General Lee]

Do you think it will get too 200-300 before it is cut off due to staffing issues?

Depends. There is a wide number of Capts and FOs that probably qualify on different fleets. I've flown with 767 Captains that could hold the 744 but chose not to. There are senior FOs on the 330 that might look at it too, just for the insurance. Critical staffing? You mean SD's email? Delta is still fat on pilots until possible 717s come. This Summer we'll still be down a few percentage points compared to last Summer. Look at the Europe pull down.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Gennerall Lee and Speed Tape,

You both must understand regionalism is here to stay unless we kill it now when we have negotiating leverage. Delta is at a tipping point with spiking costs of an aging 50 seat fleet don't give DAL an out.

Otherwise, DAL, UAL and AMR will establish Ab Initio Programs for their regionals—they won't let their investments die.

If you want to stop puppy pilot regional farms than do so now. The 717s are needed to replace DC9s, they're not all growth. If Delta needs the airframes than they will get them regardless how DALPA votes on this TA.

.

There are only 17 DC9 left, and 88 717s coming over the next three years, plus 25 MD90s this year alone. There are also some routes that can't sustain a 717 or 319, and creating a 76 seat regional airline flown by mainline would be prohibitively expensive, primarily because there would be more than mainline pilots working there, with FAs, mechanics, gate agents, and rampers also. That means mainline wages for everyone, which would be well over and above what current regionals are paid. As a business looking to make profits, that would be unwise, and probably turned down by any board of directors.

The best we can do is try to bring down the numbers in total, get a solid number for a cap, and keep a ratio that finally favors mainline pilots. Any parking of mainline planes would result in parking of RJs. Then, we need tighter scope on INTL joint ventures and domestic code shares like Alaska Air. Those things endanger careers too, even for the RJ guys who eventually want to fly for mainline and want to fly widebodies to far away places. This TA does all of that, with a 19% raise over 3 years. That is pretty good.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

Again PCL- treat me like a 3rd grader

How does this TA improve scope?

Wave, you often have a lot of good posts on here. However, in this instance PCL has spelled it out pretty clearly with facts and a realistic perspective on scope and DAL's TA. You, on the other hand, are coming across as a bit of a broken record. You are coming across as someone who will attack anything ALPA, no matter what they do.
DAL bumped up the hourly rate for 737 flying (thank you SWAPA for moving it up when you guys were negotiating), they also are turning the scope pendulum around.
We all want to see any airline make gains (as DAL has done), whether we compete with them our not.

 

[waveflyer]

No Dan, I think the current generation of ALPA pilots has done a great disservice to their predecessors- even APA- I don't believe in outsourcing.
First, PCL has not made his case, ive just been enjoying Memorial day. But I'll get to that.

Again, it's ethical-DALPA has stated over and again that they need a false market, created by them and their bosses, where all employees will be constantly whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low while simultaneously dangling the "one day you might get to work at mainline" carrot to keep a fresh crop of hopefuls applying, in order to make an expensive 17c/asm airplane profitable. - which I disagree that it ever is- no RJ has ever turned a profit on a leg or route - even with that whipsawed labor market- its the network in total that is profitable- passengers must connect, and frequency must be achieved for that to make sense- but ultimately, don't fool yourself about what the regionals are- a money drain that devalues the profession- it splits the seniority lists and allows startups to have qualified apps who are willing to fly for less than majors, as long as its more than their regional-

But look at the selfishness here as well- they want artificially low wages at regionals in order to make profits that they can take for themselves. ???? WTF is that? How about earning your own profits General? You basically espoused outright theft of other pilots efforts by keeping them institutionally disenfranchised.
Those regional pilots will not get the vote you are about to cast. Remember that. The pilots you throw under the bus for your ********************ING pay raise will never get to vote on how much flying they do so you can steal any profits!!

Then view this in context- all the legacies are currently fighting one scope battle-> LARGER RJs. That's where the fight is at all airlines right now. This DALPA TA makes gains in the 50 seat war that isn't really being fought by anyone- but it consummates the 2006 BK deal that allowed a very non-standard -900 to be flown at regionals. Delta is the strongest legacy right now and it will be very hard for either UAL or AA in weaker bargaining positions to keep -900's in house. And they won't necessarily get the gains at the bottom end- all the BK judge will notice is that the company profiting a $1Billion/year is allowing -900's why shouldn't AA.

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

It's great you are trying to "fight the good fight" here, but why don't you turn your efforts to something you can actually do to benefit people in your own company and future new hires there? Fight the "pay for your own type rating" scheme at SWA! What a crock that is. SWA can afford to pay for their own pilots ratings. Admit it, it is ridiculous. Good luck.


Bye Bye---General Lee