Delta TA impact on Delta Connection...

[General Lee]

We've never heard that one before! This profession is screwed...

It is actually tied into the new 76 seaters. For every 1.25 new planes (717s or A319s), DCI gets a new 76 seater, up to 223 total (there are 153 now). But, there will be 125 total 50 or 70 seaters, TOTAL. That is a big reduction. And, the mainline numbers will be tied to DCI numbers. When Delta decides to dump the remaining DC9s (in 2014 now supposedly), that will be tied to any new planes coming in.

In better news, according to the TA, 35% of all newhires in upcoming classes will come from ALPA DCI carriers.

I am still looking at this TA, and I should be getting a summary from ALPA shortly. It should make it easier to understand, rather than just reading the TA which has a lot of lawyer speak.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The CR2's were going away before the TA. It sounds like there is a big SPIN being put on the idea that you were able to use negotiation capital and leverage to simply memorialize something that was going to happen any way! Smoke and Mirrors, mi Main Line Brothers!

I agree they were going away, but supposedly they will still be on lease. Someone (?) signed a long lease agreement that lasts for awhile longer. I guess you could keep them parked, and still pay for them. The rub is the company and the manufacturer came up with a deal to trade SOME OF THEM up for newer ones. GENIUS! But, what I am concerned with is the TOTAL number. Yes, high oil is helping to remove them, and that isn't anyone's fault. I want to listen to Dalpa and the spin they put on it. I am sure it will be entertaining.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Overall the contract is a net reduction of DCI, more mainline flying, pay raises and only a 3 year contract which means that in 3 years you will negotiate again. IF you say no, you will be negotiating for the next 3 years in mediation anyways. I hope people dont get too caught up in the 76 seat thing. It is important i am not denying that but the amount of mainline flying you will get in exchange will outweigh it.

There is truth in what you say. But, a lot of the mainline pilots currently have sticker shock. A lot was promised pay wise, and scope wise. A few days to calm down and literature from ALPA describing this with a roadshow or two will do all of us some good. I have a few questions I want to ask too.


The following is something copied from the Dalpa internal website and I think it explains, in one guy's view, what the SCOPE section of the TA may say. He is famous on the website, and his first letter in his first name is J. Anyway, more will have to come from that Negotiator's Notepad. Here is what he stated, and it doesn't mean he is exactly right, but I think he made some good points, and here they are:



"First, under the current agreement the company has the authority to grow the 76 fleet to 256 hulls, under this one they are capped at 223 (153+70)

Second, The company has a financing problem with the 50 seat leases and can park them to lose 100% of potential or keep them and lose less than 100%. There are options where the lessors could take the 50 (losing some income) and replace them with 76's (and insure a longer revenue stream). IOW, the 50 IS going away, we can create an environment to accelerate that fact to our benefit our not. This agreement does...

Third, they can only take advantage of this exchange under 2 simultaneous events. They must FIRST place 1.25 NEW narrow bodies into action for each new swapped 76 AND they must remove 2-3 50's. At that point a snap shot is taken to establish a hard block hour ratio which can not be reduced. As they add more NB, they get more 76 (1.25 to 1) and they remove more 50's, a new more favorable mainline ratio is established. In the end of the day, should they chose to shrink ML for any reason, they will be required to shrink RJ by a greater degree (simple math).

Fourth, should they entertain a furlough, before the first pilot hits the street, they would have to pull 6 seats out or EVERY 76 plane being flown (not one, but ALL)

Fifth, they have finally achieved access to the JV/CS world and are in position to place defined limits."




Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nimtz]

GL if you still put faith in literature from ALPA then you might as well vote YES now...

 

[Flyprdu]

Overall the contract is a net reduction of DCI, more mainline flying...

Incorrect. It may be a reduction of airframes, but it is a marked increase in Available Seat Miles for DCI.

This is bad news for the industry. I suggest to Delta pilots to vote NO.

 

[777forever]

Incorrect. It may be a reduction of airframes, but it is a marked increase in Available Seat Miles for DCI.

This is bad news for the industry. I suggest to Delta pilots to vote NO.

Negative. Check your math. Overall block hrs flown by DCI stands to be reduced significantly

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[Flyprdu]

Negative. Check your math. Overall block hrs flown by DCI stands to be reduced significantly

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Yeah.. block hours.. but SEAT miles are going to be up. You add 150 more planes with 50% more capacity, then there's going to be more lift flown by DCI.

 

[79%N1]

Isn't it better for Delta pilots to have it that way? Less airframes at DCI, but the ones that are flying have more seats/first class? It's about revenue and costs, right? If the plane is going to fly, isn't it better to have more people on it, more revenue? This makeds DAL's bottom line healthier and increases your profit sharing check. A profitable company means more stability and possibly growth, no? You have protection by the overall (less) number of planes flying for DCI, and have capped the size at current levels. Sounds like a win. You geta all balled up by the seats. The plane is going to fly DCI from MEM to GPT anyway. Isn't it better to have it carry 70 people - maybe some paying a higher first class premium - than have it fly with 50 people.

 

[777forever]

Yeah.. block hours.. but SEAT miles are going to be up. You add 150 more planes with 50% more capacity, then there's going to be more lift flown by DCI.

Negative. Your facts are exaggerated, and math still off. They are adding 70 76 seaters MAX while reducing 200ish 50 seaters. At the same time they are adding 88 SNB jets to mainline.

70*76seats= 5320 seats
-200*50= 10,000 seats
---------------------------
Total= -4680 Available seats

You can bet that the new SNB jet flying will cover some of that loss, increasing the ratio of block hours towards mainline's benefit

"First, under the current agreement the company has the authority to grow the 76 fleet to 256 hulls, under this one they are capped at 223 (153+70)

Second, The company has a financing problem with the 50 seat leases and can park them to lose 100% of potential or keep them and lose less than 100%. There are options where the lessors could take the 50 (losing some income) and replace them with 76's (and insure a longer revenue stream). IOW, the 50 IS going away, we can create an environment to accelerate that fact to our benefit our not. This agreement does...

Third, they can only take advantage of this exchange under 2 simultaneous events. They must FIRST place 1.25 NEW narrow bodies into action for each new swapped 76 AND they must remove 2-3 50's. At that point a snap shot is taken to establish a hard block hour ratio which can not be reduced. As they add more NB, they get more 76 (1.25 to 1) and they remove more 50's, a new more favorable mainline ratio is established. In the end of the day, should they chose to shrink ML for any reason, they will be required to shrink RJ by a greater degree (simple math).

Fourth, should they entertain a furlough, before the first pilot hits the street, they would have to pull 6 seats out or EVERY 76 plane being flown (not one, but ALL)

Fifth, they have finally achieved access to the JV/CS world and are in position to place defined limits."

 

[DoinTime]

http://biz.yahoo.com/n/y/y0002.html

 

[General Lee]

GL if you still put faith in literature from ALPA then you might as well vote YES now...

Faith literature? I just want to read how Dalpa sees this, and not have to hire a lawyer myself just to read the TA. I am sure there will be plenty of questions at each of the roadshows.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Isn't it better for Delta pilots to have it that way? Less airframes at DCI, but the ones that are flying have more seats/first class? It's about revenue and costs, right? If the plane is going to fly, isn't it better to have more people on it, more revenue? This makeds DAL's bottom line healthier and increases your profit sharing check. A profitable company means more stability and possibly growth, no? You have protection by the overall (less) number of planes flying for DCI, and have capped the size at current levels. Sounds like a win. You geta all balled up by the seats. The plane is going to fly DCI from MEM to GPT anyway. Isn't it better to have it carry 70 people - maybe some paying a higher first class premium - than have it fly with 50 people.

That's how some people are looking at it. The 50 seaters are money losers with high gas, and we can all wish them to go away, but what if there are leases on them that prohibit that economically. We can be mad at the people who did that, or we can accept it and then try to figure out what to do next. We can just continue to fly them at a loss, park them and pay for them, or unfortunately do this.


Here is the "carrot" for allowing this (and we all know it is a carrot):



Delta to Take Delivery of Boeing 717 Aircraft Upon Ratification of Pilot Tentative Agreement

Delta to upgauge fleet while replacing less efficient aircraft
Pilot agreement and aircraft transactions provide value to Delta people, customers and shareholders


ATLANTA, May 22, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines will begin taking delivery of Boeing 717 aircraft as early as 2013 upon ratification of a new tentative agreement covering Delta's more than 12,000 pilots. The tentative agreement was approved on May 21 by the Master Executive Council (MEC) of the Delta Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), and now will be presented to pilots for review and ratification through June 30.

The tentative agreement provides career growth opportunities as well as pay and benefits improvements for Delta pilots, while providing Delta productivity gains and additional aircraft flexibility, including an opportunity to accelerate its domestic fleet restructuring to provide a better customer travel experience.

If ratified, the agreement will accelerate Delta's domestic fleet restructuring strategy. To this end, Delta has reached an agreement in principle with Southwest Airlines and Boeing to lease 88 Boeing 717 aircraft currently in service at Southwest subsidiary AirTran Airways that is conditioned upon pilot ratification of the tentative agreement. The aircraft will primarily replace inefficient 50-seat regional jets and some older DC-9 aircraft still in service, on a capacity-neutral basis.

The tentative agreement also provides Delta with additional flexibility to acquire up to 70 larger two-class, 76-seat regional jets as the Boeing 717 aircraft are delivered to Delta. Delta currently operates 255 larger two-class regional jets; the fleet will be increased to 325 aircraft.

"These actions pave the way for us to restructure and upgauge our domestic fleet, which will lower our costs, provide more pilot jobs and improve the onboard experience for our customers," said Delta CEO Richard Anderson. "The addition of the Boeing 717s, additional large regional jets and the planned replacement of 50-seat aircraft continue Delta's commitment to operating an efficient, flexible domestic fleet that offers customers even more opportunities to upgrade to our First Class and Economy Comfort cabins."

In addition to aircraft flexibility, the tentative agreement will provide for productivity enhancements as well as improvements to the total compensation package for Delta pilots, including increases to base pay. The agreement also provides for a modification of the profit sharing program for pilots so that it pays 10 percent of profits, compared with 15 percent today, on the first $2.5 billion of profits effective Jan. 1, 2013. The plan will continue to pay 20 percent of profits above $2.5 billion. A voluntary early retirement option recently offered to Delta's other employee groups also will be available to Delta pilots upon ratification of the tentative agreement.

"Delta, our pilots and ALPA continue to benefit from a very constructive, proactive relationship, one that is unprecedented in our industry," said Mike Campbell, executive vice president – Human Resources and Labor Relations. "This tentative agreement represents an investment in our pilots and our company as it gives Delta significant fleet flexibility, the ability to continue running a reliable operation for our customers, and a profitable enterprise for shareholders and for all Delta people. The fleet changes provided by this agreement, coupled with the productivity and profit sharing changes, cover the investments in our employees.

"We strongly support the Delta MEC's endorsement and are optimistic that Delta pilots will ratify the tentative agreement," Campbell said.
Pilots have approximately five weeks to review and ratify the tentative agreement. If approved by the June 30 deadline, the agreement would take effect July 1, 2012. The agreement becomes amendable Dec. 31, 2015.





Some people said "I'll believe it when I see it." Well, there it is. Don't forget the 27 MD90s that are coming this year too (more after that probably), along with the 737-900s.(which will replace some outgoing older 757s and some domestic 767s) I would say that is a build up of the domestic fleet. Hopefully there will be an order for INTL widebodies too (rumors), and maybe more in the domestic arena too.


Remember, I am just looking at the scope section here. I am still not very pleased with the compensation part.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[wms]

It's a carrot and unfortunately, you guys will take it.

 

[General Lee]

It's a carrot and unfortunately, you guys will take it.

Give me an answer to what you would do with the 50 seaters. Let's just say that someone up high did renew the leases, and now they will pay for them for 10 more years. Knowing that, what would you do with them? Just park them? Fly them at a loss? What about what to do with new CR9s? Yes, DL pilots could fly the new ones, but what about the rest of the people working with them? Rampers, flight attendants, mechanics, etc? Would they all be mainline employees? Or just the pilots? Tell me how that would work?

They are getting the 717s now, and that is good. There could be more things out there in the pipeline, but some people said the 717 order was suspect. Well, it looks official now. And, there are protections in this TA to not allow those additional RJs to come unless mainline grows. Not a great deal, but unfortunately one that you have to look at as a whole and see what is best with the situation DL has.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sweptback]

Give me an answer to what you would do with the 50 seaters. Let's just say that someone up high did renew the leases, and now they will pay for them for 10 more years. Knowing that, what would you do with them? Just park them? Fly them at a loss? What about what to do with new CR9s? Yes, DL pilots could fly the new ones, but what about the rest of the people working with them? Rampers, flight attendants, mechanics, etc? Would they all be mainline employees? Or just the pilots? Tell me how that would work?

They are getting the 717s now, and that is good. There could be more things out there in the pipeline, but some people said the 717 order was suspect. Well, it looks official now. And, there are protections in this TA to not allow those additional RJs to come unless mainline grows. Not a great deal, but unfortunately one that you have to look at as a whole and see what is best with the situation DL has.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Who cares about the 50 seaters, they are going away anyway! Why negotiate to speed up something that will happen anyway -- especially since the 50 seaters aren't a threat to mainline. The 76 seaters are a threat to mainline and should be limited, not expanded.

You guys negotiate your deal, we'll worry about our house. 50 seaters will eventually be parked with or without Delta pilots negotiating it.

 

[WWEfan]

What happened to Genital Lee? All that big tough talk about holding fast to scope and then DL throws a few bucks his way and he folds like laundry. Thanks, from all of us at the regionals who will be here that much longer.

 

[Inconceivable]

What happened to Genital Lee? All that big tough talk about holding fast to scope and then DL throws a few bucks his way and he folds like laundry. Thanks, from all of us at the regionals who will be here that much longer.

+1 ... and some extra text to make the post minimum

 

[SPDBRD747400]

Wow 35% of new hires will come from DCI ALPA carriers, so it would seem that if you are not ALPA you'll be in the 65% range (much better odds)! So how does this benefit an DCI ALPA group??? Thanks ALPA for helping us out, why do I pay dues again?

 

[79%N1]

Wow 35% of new hires will come from DCI ALPA carriers, so it would seem that if you are not ALPA you'll be in the 65% range (much better odds)! So how does this benefit an DCI ALPA group??? Thanks ALPA for helping us out, why do I pay dues again?

Hmm, good point. I suppose other than military the others would come from OTHER carriers, ALPA or not. That does put DCI guys in the minority though.

 

[777forever]

I agree with the General and with the Delta NC. Very good scope protections are built into this TA and Delta pilots would be unwise not to vote yes and take the pay increases, upgrades, and movement that come with a short 3 year contract that moves a significant amount of block hours to mainline.

100 737-900s on the way
88 717s on the way

That's a lot of movement that will get a significant amount of folks up out of the regionals, which would be a good idea since probably one or two DCI carriers are about to get the HAMMER when it comes to cutting 50 seat jets.