Delta Shuttle to be flown by Republic/Chautauqua/Shuttle America with "RJ's"

[~~~^~~~]

Why didn't you want to participate in the litigation?

A whole bunch of reasons, but some are self evident. For one, just like you I applied via normal channels and got a great job. Secondly, Haber and I did not agree on a good many things. It was my opinion the strategy was flawed and that Haber would put his interests ahead of his Clients'.

John Malone seemed to get along with JC and Bob. The ASA & Comair MEC's were not a threat at all and I'm convinced the Delta MEC wanted to outsource this flying as a strategy to protect as much as they could of Contract 2000. I think it was a sale, plain and simple.

JC was a bogeyman and played the role unwittingly. The result was more political support for the Delta MEC when they needed support. Win/win - JMHO - could be wrong and probably am.

Totally understand fins, but a judge could come to the conclusion that while ruling in favor of the ASA and CMR pilots that such a ruling could lead to further lawsuits by other carriers as a precedent would have been set.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if it meant that pilots within the brand were compelled to work together on scope, I think that might would be a good thing. The airlines that have been growing are non-ALPA. The airlines that have been shrinking are mainline & ALPA. I'd like to see that trend reversed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

By extending an olive branch to the Delta pilots then maybe something could have been done, but the Delta would have to ask.

Since management doesn't like these agreements what makes you think they would like having reps from ASA and CMR at the negotiating table for the Delta pilot contract negotiations?

You have to use leverage...The same leverage you use to get more money and better workrules.....you don't do it when you are furloughing and losing money....

In 2000 things were relatively good and both DAL and CMR were in the "endgame".....In 2002 things were terrible....All you could have done was say "pretty please"....Want'a take a guess what managment would have said?

What incentive did DAL management have in 2002 to increase training costs and unify the 3 groups?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well ... all 3 groups were in bargaining at the same time.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Amazing we are still arguing this case after a decade.

Shows you how this example of alter ego outsourcing really defined a decade of flying, maybe even a generation of pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well ... all 3 groups were in bargaining at the same time.....

In 2000 DAL and CMR were....not in 2002 when Plug's group circulated it's petition....DAL was furloughing and ASA was just ramping up negotiations.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Amazing we are still arguing this case after a decade.

Shows you how this example of alter ego outsourcing really defined a decade of flying, maybe even a generation of pilots.

It's been almost 14 years since Dan made his first crossbid proposal at the first of many ALPA scope committees...This is why I am sceptical....

 

[Plug]

A whole bunch of reasons, but some are self evident. For one, just like you I applied via normal channels and got a job I like a lot. Secondly, Haber and I did not agree on a good many things. It was my opinion the strategy was flawed and that Haber would put his interests ahead of his Clients'.

John Malone seemed to get along with JC and Bob. The ASA & Comair MEC's were not a threat at all and I'm convinced the Delta MEC wanted to outsource this flying as a strategy to protect as much as they could of Contract 2000. I think it was a sale, plain and simple.

JC was a bogeyman and played the role unwittingly. The result was more political support for the Delta MEC when they needed support. Win/win - JMHO - could be wrong and probably am.

And this was my biggest problem with RJDC. I got hired at ASA not to stay and fly RJ's but to get my time and get out, as most pilots did. The RJDC was appealed to the career regional pilots who neither cared to suit up and interview or simply couldn't and there is nothing wrong with that. Captains at ASA make good money but the flying is more "here today gone tomorrow." You bailed for the reason I thought you bailed, for an interview at DAL. I don't blame you but your admission is telling.

JC, Bob, John et al I think had a lot of politics amongst them but I think JC was a rogue who got carried away with his leadership. After the strike he walked around like he was a "king pin" when he really wasn't. He thought he'd flex a little muscle at the big Delta pilots and tell them that the CMR MEC would not help those furloughed from mainline secure jobs without resigning their Delta number. Bob told Skip when asked that he didn't care who ASA hired and if they resigned their number.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And this was my biggest problem with RJDC. I got hired at ASA not stay and fly RJ's but to get my time and get out, as most pilots did. The RJDC was appealed to the career regional pilots who neither cared to suit up and interview or simply couldn't and there is nothing wrong with that. Captains at ASA make good money but the flying is more "here today gone tomorrow."

....and mainline flying isn't these days? How long have you been at CAL and how far are you off the bottom now?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Plug,

Well, I'm sympathetic to these senior regional guys in as much as their longevity should not be destroyed by crossing an arbitrary line.

I'm not saying they should get seniority for their longevity, but companies should not thrive on destroying longevity and using that lowered cost structure to beat up on other airlines.

 

[Plug]

You have to use leverage...The same leverage you use to get more money and better workrules.....you don't do it when you are furloughing and losing money....

In 2000 things were relatively good and both DAL and CMR were in the "endgame".....In 2002 things were terrible....All you could have done was say "pretty please"....Want'a take a guess what managment would have said?

What incentive did DAL management have in 2002 to increase training costs and unify the 3 groups?

What more leverage do you than scope? Our goal was to convince the Delta MEC that should scope relief occur to tie the language directly to ASA and in turn we would allow their furloughed pilots to fill the vacancies. We all know that DAL wanted scope relief.

 

[hmmurdock]

Just look at the loads on TravelNet. The Shuttle was losing money every day. It sucks, but at least they are doing something about it. Take the planes and relocate them on routes built for the MD-88.

The Boston portion will be the next to go. I wonder if they will keep the NYC 88 crew base open? Who knows. I am sorry for the people who commute out of DCA. No more overnights at home.

Greetings. On the last AE I was diplaced to NYC on the 88. I wonder what this will mean for me. I live in CVG and would just as soon stay there, plus I wouldnt have to commute. Anyways, I guess time will tell.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What more leverage do you than scope? Our goal was to convince the Delta MEC that should scope relief occur to tie the language directly to ASA and in turn we would allow their furloughed pilots to fill the vacancies. We all know that DAL wanted scope relief.

That should have been done in 2000 when times were good and 2 of the 3 carriers were in the end game....In 2002 all you could do was ask....Still not sure what leverage you were planning on using....

DAL got the scope relief they were looking for during the concessionary bargaining....along with big paycuts and pension termination.....The DAL pilots sure as heck aren't going to do anything that benefits ASA and CMR pilots when they are losing half their pay and their pensions....

 

[Plug]

....and mainline flying isn't these days? How long have you been at CAL and how far are you off the bottom now?

You are correct but I have language in my contract that directly controls CO flying and every airplane out there with a "meatball" on the tail is allowed for in my contract. They start transferring assets like they did with ASA and Skywest they would be in huge violation of our contract that has it spelled out in black and white. Believe it or not we have some of the best scope in the industry. But I see what you are getting and I agree nothing is safe but I'll take my scope languge and hold it up against ASA's any day of the week and twice on Sunday

After the 147 furloughed I am 700 from the bottom and sit at about 68% on the 757/767 in EWR. I'll have a Guiness for you in Dublin on Thursday.

 

[Plug]

That should have been done in 2000 when times were good and 2 of the 3 carriers were in the end game....In 2002 all you could do was ask....Still not sure what leverage you were planning on using....

DAL got the scope relief they were looking for during the concessionary bargaining....along with big paycuts and pension termination.....The DAL pilots sure as heck aren't going to do anything that benefits ASA and CMR pilots when they are losing half their pay and their pensions....

It could have been sought after in 2000 just as easy as it could have been sought after in 2002. You never know what could have happened because it was never sought.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are correct but I have language in my contract that directly controls CO flying and every airplane out there with a "meatball" on the tail is allowed for in my contract.

...as does UAL, AAA, AMR, and DAL....doesn't equate to job security....

After the 147 furloughed I am 700 from the bottom and sit at about 68% on the 757/767 in EWR. I'll have a Guiness for you in Dublin on Thursday.

I still wouldn't trade places with you....I'm glad your happy....How long have you been at CAL now?