Delta RFP on 10-20 widebodies maybe coming in next 2-3 years--article

[General Lee]

All I gotta say is WOW.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SplitBar]

That Wave guy has some serious issues. Sucks to be him.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Red,

Your airline and my airline have bad issues in the past. The RJ problem did start with mine, but progressed faster during a BK. If you haven't been through one, it sucks, and I hope you never have to. Anyway, the last contract did address scope issues and pay issues, now that DL is seriously kicking tail. There were issues about RJ MX, but they could have been pushed off until 2015 or later, and that would have meant NOT taking your 717s in the BEST DEAL EVER. Face it, SWA paying $137 million to DL to use their planes against them, and then getting the right to purchase them after the leases at then value was pure genius. Then, parking inefficient RJs and having 70 new 76 seaters fill in for departing 50 seaters, while making DCI fight for them, was great too. Throw in a 20% raise over 3 years, and many things were accomplished. Throw in tighter INTL scope, and more of the "pie" for domestic flying and codeshare with AK, and the outsourcing problem was addressed. Maybe not totally fixed, but on the way. It's hard to fix it all at once. You will see that in your next negotiations.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Maybe for you, meanwhile all our FO's now qualify for food stamps and the captains are being displaced north while watching their savings shrink. And I still haven't seen a single job opening at Delta for all these new wonderous mainline jobs that this is supposed to have created.

 

[JAM-BRO]

I am a Delta pilot and on one thing Wave is right. DALPA sucks!! It's a good'ol boys club, who think of themselves as an extension of management. I have seen some sneaky crap going on with DALPA. A lot of missed the opportunities, including two contract negotiations. One in 2008, where Moak, then the DAL MEC chair, stabbed the NWA pilot group in the back and went into a one sided negotiation with DAL and NWA management. Recently in 2012, another prime opportunity was wasted when we agreed to a concessionary contract when we were projecting billions in profit.

 

[goahead]

Maybe for you, meanwhile all our FO's now qualify for food stamps and the captains are being displaced north while watching their savings shrink. And I still haven't seen a single job opening at Delta for all these new wonderous mainline jobs that this is supposed to have created.

Agree it sucks

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I am a Delta pilot and on one thing Wave is right. DALPA sucks!! It's a good'ol boys club, who think of themselves as an extension of management. I have seen some sneaky crap going on with DALPA. A lot of missed the opportunities, including two contract negotiations. One in 2008, where Moak, then the DAL MEC chair, stabbed the NWA pilot group in the back and went into a one sided negotiation with DAL and NWA management. Recently in 2012, another prime opportunity was wasted when we agreed to a concessionary contract when we were projecting billions in profit.

So I take it you are a North guy?

We're you in the room for the backstabbing or is this just part of an agenda? Run for office or quit pulling drivebys with your sneaky crap opinions.

 

[waveflyer]

That Wave guy has some serious issues. Sucks to be him.

Yeah- it REALLY does. I mean who'd ever want to be me? Probably nobody on FI- they'd rather be on the Internet than out making money or a difference

But you're right - I do have serious issues with outsourcing.
I'm sorry you don't want to hear about how much damage it's caused

 

[General Lee]

Yeah- it REALLY does. I mean who'd ever want to be me? Probably nobody on FI- they'd rather be on the Internet than out making money or a difference

But you're right - I do have serious issues with outsourcing.
I'm sorry you don't want to hear about how much damage it's caused

Wave,

Your main problem is you can't acknowledge when that problem is being fixed. You don't understand the DL plan, with outgoing 50 seaters being replaced by larger RJs (fewer of them btw), and your 717s coming in to replace the 76 seaters, and RECAPTURING old mainline routes. You just can't see it, and it's sad.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SplitBar]

Yeah- it REALLY does. I mean who'd ever want to be me? Probably nobody on FI- they'd rather be on the Internet than out making money or a difference

But you're right - I do have serious issues with outsourcing.
I'm sorry you don't want to hear about how much damage it's caused

Says the guy with nearly 7,000 posts. Who needs to get off the internet?

 

[redflyer65]

DALPA sucks!! It's a good'ol boys club, who think of themselves as an extension of management..

And there you go...


Explains why Regional pilots are flying the same sized planes that mainline used to fly. 'Throw me a few extra dollars and you can do whatever you want'.

 

[General Lee]

And there you go...


Explains why Regional pilots are flying the same sized planes that mainline used to fly. 'Throw me a few extra dollars and you can do whatever you want'.

Red,

We are picking up 88 planes that you used to fly, and putting them on routes that were flown by planes that covered for those old DC9-10s you were talking about. See, the problem is being fixed, while getting a 20% raise over 3 years too. Amazing! Nobody can just dump all feed in an instant and cover them with new mainline planes. But, dumping 140 50 seaters, adding fewer 76 seaters to replace those outgoing planes (70), and then adding 88 mainline 717s to cover for them is really making good headway towards reducing the problem of outsourcing. You can't instantly fix it, but you can make big strides, something this last contract did.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

General, can you site where in your contract it says -900's will only be deployed on old 50 seat routes?
Why couldn't mainline pilots fly those new big rj's?

Oh yeah- bc that would mean caring about that type of flying enough to wait on a raise

 

[redflyer65]

You have to admit it was a slick play by Delta management. They had the read on DALPA. They knew the Delta pilots were sabre rattling for a bigger payraise. DL crafted a deal that gave them that, and let management off the hook for the extra cost.

They were facing a several million dollar re-engine hit on the small RJs. So.....throw DALPA a small portion of that money and pocket the rest, while allowing more larger RJs under the guise of fuel economy.

It looks like RA is the master and DALPA is the puppet.

 

[General Lee]

General, can you site where in your contract it says -900's will only be deployed on old 50 seat routes?
Why couldn't mainline pilots fly those new big rj's?

Oh yeah- bc that would mean caring about that type of flying enough to wait on a raise

Why would 717s cover outgoing 50 seater routes? Do you understand the problem? These 50 seaters seemingly can't make money on most routes due to high gas prices. So, throw 70 or 76 seaters on then, lower the CASM, hunt for a profit with more seats. A 717 has what? 110 seats? Why put that on a 50 seat route? But, putting them over 76 seat routes is more logical. 140 total 50 seaters will be parked by 2015, but their routes won't just go away.

As far as who flies them, DL doesn't own all of those planes. They do own some, and there are pay rates for those same planes with over 76 seats, but 76 seats and fewer were established in BK, and that horse has left the barn. Decreasing total number of RJs is probably the best way to limit the outsourcing, and this contract has started that process. 76 seats and below have already been given to the Regionals, and even Air Canada just gave up their E175s to a local Regional (not Jazz), so their smallest plane will be the E190. Looks like that is the "new line", and we'll just have to continue to go for planes in the 100 seat range, like 717s, to try to recapture as many routes as we can. It's a start.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

But you're right - I do have serious issues with outsourcing.
I'm sorry you don't want to hear about how much damage it's caused

Yes, no question outsourcing has been a terrible thing for the industry. But to keep bringing it up is like bringing up the fact that SWA and its low wage low cost model killed off the extremely lucrative airline pilot career of the past. The damage has already been done and we have the industry we have now.

 

[General Lee]

You have to admit it was a slick play by Delta management. They had the read on DALPA. They knew the Delta pilots were sabre rattling for a bigger payraise. DL crafted a deal that gave them that, and let management off the hook for the extra cost.

They were facing a several million dollar re-engine hit on the small RJs. So.....throw DALPA a small portion of that money and pocket the rest, while allowing more larger RJs under the guise of fuel economy.

It looks like RA is the master and DALPA is the puppet.

Red,

The WHOLE plan was good, for everyone. Do you think there would only be a raise, and no extra mainline planes? Did you know the additional 76 seaters were tied to the 717s? No 717s, no 76 seaters. That was key. Then throw in a higher mainline ratio of flying domestically compared to DCI, a better percentage against AF/KLM for that JV, and better percentages against Alaska Air, and you start to see the picture. Guarantee to park 140 50 seaters, add 88 717s, add scope protections, and a raise---that was the deal. Not just a raise. How are you guys going to do on upcoming negotiations?



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Time will tell then GL-

Will you be more willing to eat crow if you're wrong, then when you sold that last TA after promising for years to get outsourcing under control-

Now before you get on with the same arguments- size of the outsourced airplane is more important than how many- once DALPA set precedent on -900's it knows it can get more later once that size is accepted- and then it creeps ... Ever bigger

50's were always expensive- they were used by DAL to get pilots used to the idea of regional pilots flying jets - the next step has always been to creep on up

Understand the long term strategy against us an you get why I don't give you a pass

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, no question outsourcing has been a terrible thing for the industry. But to keep bringing it up is like bringing up the fact that SWA and its low wage low cost model killed off the extremely lucrative airline pilot career of the past. The damage has already been done and we have the industry we have now.

The difference is that SWA pilots chose for themselves to work at that wage for that stock deal- believe me, I don't feel bad for those early pilots-

DALPA pilots don't have to work in the whipsaw market they created-

Hence the term sellout.

An individual's choice is a LOT different than choosing FOR other pilots

 

[General Lee]

Time will tell then GL-

Will you be more willing to eat crow if you're wrong, then when you sold that last TA after promising for years to get outsourcing under control-

Now before you get on with the same arguments- size of the outsourced airplane is more important than how many- once DALPA set precedent on -900's it knows it can get more later once that size is accepted- and then it creeps ... Ever bigger

50's were always expensive- they were used by DAL to get pilots used to the idea of regional pilots flying jets - the next step has always been to creep on up

Understand the long term strategy against us an you get why I don't give you a pass

I am not looking for your acceptance. What I am trying to point out is what has actually happened. 76 seaters for DL and NWA came during both BKs. They grew to 153 in the previous contract, which started in BK. BK isn't fun, ask the AA guys who just gave AA a bunch of E175s from Republic. So, the cat is out of the bag. Now, you have to limit them, and this last deal, tied to 88 717s and guaranteed parking of 140 50 seaters, was a good trade. It helped everyone, but really helped us. That's good. Fingers crossed for your upcoming negotiations too.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Scoot 11]

Yeah- it REALLY does. I mean who'd ever want to be me? Probably nobody on FI- they'd rather be on the Internet than out making money or a difference

But you're right - I do have serious issues with outsourcing.
I'm sorry you don't want to hear about how much damage it's caused

You're a PFT troll and *************************! You talk about how you hate outsourcing and take an outsourced job. You couldn't get hired at Delta and are pissed because the only job you could get is where you had to pay for it. Does the light hurt your eyes when you come out to the sunlight from under the rock you're hiding under?
You give all the Sputhwest pilots I know a bad name. I'm sure your boyfriend is lonely by now, so,get lost

 

[Scoot 11]

And there you go...


Explains why Regional pilots are flying the same sized planes that mainline used to fly. 'Throw me a few extra dollars and you can do whatever you want'.

At least we now know who waves man love is. :blush:

 

[redflyer65]

At least we now know who waves man love is. :blush:

Great comeback Scoot. I knew I could count on you for your excellent debating skills. You make the General look good with your witty comments!

 

[Scoot 11]

Great comeback Scoot. I knew I could count on you for your excellent debating skills. You make the General look good with your witty comments!

Red:
Why don't you troll the regional boards, and tell them all how bad they suck, and how much better SW is than them. It's kinda played out here on every DL thread, and I find you and your boyfriend waveflyer to be quite annoying!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Seriously Red.....you and wave need to get a room.

Head over to the Warrior Cave and circle jerk each other about how you guys are the model saviors of the industry.

 

[dalad]

Seriously Red.....you and wave need to get a room.

Head over to the Warrior Cave and circle jerk each other about how you guys are the model saviors of the industry.

The only problem is that neither one wants to be the Alpha male in the relationship. They would rather receive than give.

 

[redflyer65]

They would rather receive than give.

You mean like DALPA does everytime RA comes calling?

Get ready for the 100 seaters next time guys. They are a little bit bigger as well...and hopefully RA will bring some lube (ie...payraises again) Haha!

Actually, the General is the regional troll. He just can't stay away, but lately debates better than both Scoot and Bill L. Go figure.


I'm done. You guys enjoy your larger RJs and I hope you can decrease them over time (for everyone's sake). In the meantime, we'll keep them off our property completely.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

You mean like DALPA does everytime RA comes calling?

Get ready for the 100 seaters next time guys. They are a little bit bigger as well...and hopefully RA will bring some lube (ie...payraises again) Haha!

Actually, the General is the regional troll. He just can't stay away, but lately debates better than both Scoot and Bill L. Go figure.


I'm done. You guys enjoy your larger RJs and I hope you can decrease them over time (for everyone's sake). In the meantime, we'll keep them off our property completely.

Super......Can't debate Stupid.....

 

[Scoot 11]

I'm done.

Great! Stop back when you have less time! And take that colossal ****************************** bag wave with you!
Maybe by then you'll be dressing in men's clothing!

 

[waveflyer]

Nicely done guys. Each of you trying to childishly (and homophobically) one-upping the last.
Have you looked at this last page?

I am critiquing DALPA. And I know that's hard to hear, bc im doing it relentlessly. But I am not making it personal and calling anyone names- I'm calling the collective out- I am giving you rational reasons and defining the term 'sellout' (you get to vote on decisions that affect OTHER pilots who have to fly in a falsely more competitive WHIPSAW market)

Sorry, but 50 seaters were going away regardless. To "trade" those for -900's was remarkably ignorant. You reloaded the whipsaw market with a sustainable airplane just as very real economic pressures made the -200's a liability. So it's been said.
Apparently, one gets a more bitter perspective when they're the one's who have been furloughed and seen their job replaced by one of these things- when the choice becomes: fly an RJ or get out of flying

So spool up all you like scoot, dalad, bill- say all the crazy things you want- there are thousands of pilots just like me that were sold out by those left on the property at a legacy. I focus on delta because you guys tend to lead on this- the bottom line is you help make a group of second class pilots, not on your seniority list, whipsawed against each other, who have no vote on outsourcing, but who also fly a MAJORITY of your domestic flights.

That's your legacy. More than just me ought to be speaking up against it.

 

[General Lee]

Wave,

You aren't looking at the three way trade. Dump 140 50 seaters, add 70 76 seaters, and then add 88 717s. The 717s are tied to the 76 seaters, if they don't arrive at mainline, then the 76 seaters don't go to DCI. Then throw the 70 and 76 seaters on the outgoing 50 seater current routes, and then you have mainline recapturing DCI routes, which is GREAT. You always leave that part out, convienently. That is your problem. Mainline gets routes back, at higher rates, and will have to hire by next year most likely. That is good.



Bye Bye---General Lee