Delta RFP on 10-20 widebodies maybe coming in next 2-3 years--article

[waveflyer]

For us or you guys?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Us?

.......

SWA doesn't outsource and our group saw fit to nip it before it ever got a foothold- learning the lesson that delta didn't -

That's too big an airplane to have outsourced GL..

But thanks for quoting me so coward bill will know what I said-
He has to ignore me though so he can continue believing everyone is envious of him and the sellout DALPA pilots-

God I can't wait til this boomer generation dies off - have they left anything at all that's better for the next generation ?

 

[General Lee]

Us?

.......

SWA doesn't outsource and our group saw fit to nip it before it ever got a foothold- learning the lesson that delta didn't -

That's too big an airplane to have outsourced GL..

But thanks for quoting me so coward bill will know what I said-
He has to ignore me though so he can continue believing everyone is envious of him and the sellout DALPA pilots-

God I can't wait til this boomer generation dies off - have they left anything at all that's better for the next generation ?

Wave,

You guys gave away 17 cities that AT will no longer be serving thanks to your merger. That's ok, DL will use YOUR 717s to those communities and more, and TAKE BACK current routes that are used by CR9s now, which will in turn cover outgoing 50 seat routes. You fail to acknowledge any of that. Recapturing routes is a GOOD thing, for the next generation especially. Acknowledge that, and you will feel better....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[dalad]

Us?

.......

SWA doesn't outsource and our group saw fit to nip it before it ever got a foothold- learning the lesson that delta didn't -

That's too big an airplane to have outsourced GL..

But thanks for quoting me so coward bill will know what I said-
He has to ignore me though so he can continue believing everyone is envious of him and the sellout DALPA pilots-

God I can't wait til this boomer generation dies off - have they left anything at all that's better for the next generation ?

Says the SCAB who elected to outsource himself. Filthy piece of garbage.

 

[waveflyer]

I'm a scab?

Do you know the definition?

I never got a vote in outsourcing. I didn't fly an RJ for my old legacy- so what are you talking about? That your way of projecting what was your responsibility onto someone else. Oh I know- All other rj pilots and i should have just quit flying

Whatever, take responsibility for your vote.

Mainline delta pilots had a say in outsourcing and got convinced to outsource in the 90's-then voted to reload it again, while not in bankruptcy, just when financial pressures were mounting on the 50's-

They don't care that they get rid many more 50-seaters now than -900's they pick up. Now that precedent is set, they'll just complicate the issue again and know you'll vote to allow more -900's again- bc what's another 20% more -900's when this contract gives me so much, and besides, they're already outsourced.

Piss off delta. You guys suck and I would never work for you or any other legacy. But keep chasing that carrot-

Post some more articles about widebodies you MIGHT get GL- you're still a sellout

 

[General Lee]

I'm a scab?

Do you know the definition?

I never got a vote in outsourcing. I didn't fly an RJ for my old legacy- so what are you talking about? That your way of projecting what was your responsibility onto someone else. Oh I know- All other rj pilots and i should have just quit flying

Whatever, take responsibility for your vote.

Mainline delta pilots had a say in outsourcing and got convinced to outsource in the 90's-then voted to reload it again, while not in bankruptcy, just when financial pressures were mounting on the 50's-

They don't care that they get rid many more 50-seaters now than -900's they pick up. Now that precedent is set, they'll just complicate the issue again and know you'll vote to allow more -900's again- bc what's another 20% more -900's when this contract gives me so much, and besides, they're already outsourced.

Piss off delta. You guys suck and I would never work for you or any other legacy. But keep chasing that carrot-

Post some more articles about widebodies you MIGHT get GL- you're still a sellout

Come on Wave, you sold out by paying for your training. Sure, people pay for ratings everyday, but not at this level. Your airline could easily afford paying for training (they are doing it for AT 717 pilots who have never flown the 737), but you elected to do it yourself. You didn't have to, and at this level it should be shunned.

If you want to keep going, then let's talk about your company's treatment of the AT guys. I can easily get into that morass, and it is a shame also. A sellout doesn't try to "do the right thing." This latest contract recaptured DCI flying that was thought "lost." Not anymore. You still can't seem to see that those extra CR9s are covering OUTGOING 50 seaters. That means bigger planes on routes that saw smaller ones that didn't make money with higher oil. Then, add 717s to CURRENT CR9 or E170 routes. That is called GENIUS. You can't seem to understand that concept, still. It is GOOD for us. More CR9s that cover outgoing planes, and even MORE 717s (more than the number of new 76 seaters) to cover them. Wow, what a concept. 140 RJs leaving total, and 88 717s recapturing routes, thanks to you guys. Thanks!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

My post above absolutely acknowledges the outgoing 50 v -900's-
But of course you need to deflect to SWA issues and ignore what I actually wrote- maybe because you have no good defense for reloading the outsourcing market with bigger, more efficient planes??? Maybe.

Sellouts. Those planes ought to be flown by mainline.

You do know the definition of sellout, right? I CAN'T "sellout" my own self. I made the decision to buy my type, just like I made the decision to pay for my lessons at the fbo. Key words- I decided for me. I didn't decide for others. What you did at delta was sign off on the creation of an outsourced market that OTHER PILOTS WOULD HAVE TO FLY IN. Not YOU. You don't have to fly in that whipsaw market- others do. Or quit flying. It's a systemic professional issue.

There's NO EXCUSE FOR NOT KNOWING WHAT THAT WHIPSAW MARKET HAS DONE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO TO THE PILOT CAREER.

But don't worry, the next generation is already correcting for it- by NOT BECOMING PILOTS IN THE FIRST PLACE. You must be so proud of THAT LEGACY.

 

[waveflyer]

Today, -900's twice flew between SLC-LAX

And I can fill pages on FI with other routes if you want-

So you want to dispense with the bull?

It's going to supplement mainline flying just like it always have, but do it with cheaper pilots who will never have leverage to improve their lot- lest they go the way of comair.

Didn't YOU use to fly for them?

 

[redflyer65]

DC9-10 seats in the Northwest config - 78 seats.

CRJ-900 number of seats in the Delta config - 76 seats.


Anyone else see the problem here?

Regional pilots are NOW doing mainline flying. PERIOD.

Any other arguement is just smoke and mirrors to justify the above facts.




RA will bring the 100 seaters on next for a little pay bump at mainline, watch and learn.

 

[maxblast72]

If you want to keep going, then let's talk about your company's treatment of the AT guys.

Gary Kelly acted just like any other airline CEO after getting poked in the eye. Tim Hoeksma, former Midwest Airlines CEO, gave Joe Leonard the middle finger back in 2007. Joe responded by tripling AirTran's MKE capacity in about 2 years.

Fast forward 2-3 years, the AirTran MEC gave Gary Kelly the middle finger after being offered 30-40% pay raises on 4/1/12, a 9 year fence around ATL, and a 9 year Captain Retention Slot program. The C&Rs of SIA #1 were designed to blunt the seniority pain caused by the ISL until a substantial number of SWA pilots retired. Gary Kelly decided to show the ATN MEC who was boss just like Joe Leonard showed Tim Hoeksma who was boss back in 2009.

 

[General Lee]

Today, -900's twice flew between SLC-LAX

And I can fill pages on FI with other routes if you want-

So you want to dispense with the bull?

It's going to supplement mainline flying just like it always have, but do it with cheaper pilots who will never have leverage to improve their lot- lest they go the way of comair.

Didn't YOU use to fly for them?

It's great you can find CR9s and the routes they CURRENTLY fly. That all will change when your airline gives up 88 717s. Just think about that for one minute. Then think about 140 50 seaters leaving also within the next few years. Those routes won't disappear, they will be filled by larger RJs, and the current routes by larger RJs will be covered by MAINLINE 717s.

What happens when a time of day cannot fill a mainline jet, but maybe something smaller? With your airline, you drop the service (GEG and BOI to SEA), or do a couple flights a day. With a hub and spoke, there may be smaller airplanes (like CR9s) flying in between banks. Would it be nice to have them all being flown by mainline pilots? Sure, but mainline doesn't always own those planes. And to recapture ALL of the RJs would mean zero pay increase, zero other scope recapture (INTL and domestic code share), zero additional DC % increases, zero everything else. You simply CANNOT go for all of it at once. So, what to do..... How about chip away at it and increase your percentage of the domestic flying pie? Guess what? That was done with this last contract. Scope tightened? Yup. RJs parked? Yup. More mainline planes at higher rates? Yup. Get the picture? You should...... You will soon figure this out with your NEXT contract negotiations. You won't get everything you want, nope.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Gary Kelly acted just like any other airline CEO after getting poked in the eye. Tim Hoeksma, former Midwest Airlines CEO, gave Joe Leonard the middle finger back in 2007. Joe responded by tripling AirTran's MKE capacity in about 2 years.

Fast forward 2-3 years, the AirTran MEC gave Gary Kelly the middle finger after being offered 30-40% pay raises on 4/1/12, a 9 year fence around ATL, and a 9 year Captain Retention Slot program. The C&Rs of SIA #1 were designed to blunt the seniority pain caused by the ISL until a substantial number of SWA pilots retired. Gary Kelly decided to show the ATN MEC who was boss just like Joe Leonard showed Tim Hoeksma who was boss back in 2009.

What? Why the aggression? Not a good way to BLEND future employees into the current fold. You DON'T GET INVOLVED IN SLI negotiations. NOPE. Let the pilots do it. If they can't get it done, then take it to NEUTRALS. They will figure out what is FAIR. Why is this so hard to understand? IF the SWA pilots thought they "were the tops and deserved it all", then they could have argued their point to the arbitrator panel. I wonder why they didn't want to do that???? And, I don't know one merger that never had 1 capt slot on the other side still standing after the merger was complete. What a complete joke. AT brought over a lot of planes, many you are dumping. But, there are 737s also coming over, and ZERO capt slots??? Huh???? Sorry, but that is just plain WRONG. I am pretty sure NO ARBITRATORS would ever allow that to happen, ever. You can offer huge pay raises, but that doesn't take care of half of the equation, which is QOL and using seniority to be in the left seat. That wasn't an option, it seems.

You guys had the advantage of watching a couple mergers prior to yours, and to choose the path you could take. You chose the WRONG one. Just ask almost every AT guy on here if he/she thought it was fair. If you don't care, then that also makes my point. Many don't care, which isn't good.

Max, do you think you should have retained your Capt seat at SWA after the merger if you could hold it? How long have you been a Capt at AT? What is your opinion on all AT Capts being forced to become FOs at SWA? Do you think arbitration would have allowed that to happen? Did any TWA pilots get Capt slots at AA?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

DC9-10 seats in the Northwest config - 78 seats.

CRJ-900 number of seats in the Delta config - 76 seats.


Anyone else see the problem here?

Regional pilots are NOW doing mainline flying. PERIOD.

Any other arguement is just smoke and mirrors to justify the above facts.




RA will bring the 100 seaters on next for a little pay bump at mainline, watch and learn.

So, what you are saying is that DL should still be flying DC9-10 series planes? Still? Why aren't you flying the 717s? Obviously that plane didn't fit in your plan. Should DL still be flying the DC9-10? I think SWA should be flying Lockeed Electras between Dallas Love and Lubbock. Why aren't you doing that NOW???

Regional pilots do fly larger planes, but they are also losing most of their smaller planes, and the larger ones are sticking around to hopefully make a profit on the 50 seat routes, that can't make money due to high oil. Why is SWA pulling out of SEA-BOI and SEA-GEG? How about PIT to PHL? Any reason you can give Red? If the route doesn't make money, you either dump it or find a plane that can make money on it. Looks like 50 seaters can't make money, but maybe 70 or 76 seaters can. Time to put them on the routes, and then YOUR 717s will fill in on the 76 seat routes. Sounds like a FANTASTIC plan...... you're welcome....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

The problem is you don't see how flying a jet with a whipsaw market off the mainline seniority list, that artificially keeps pilot wages low is selling out.

How is that NOT selling out GL?
The CRJ -900 IS in Delta's plans- they just don't want you to fly it. I'm sure they'd
outsource your 777's if they could- I don't blame mgmt for asking- it's DALPA's weakness, greed, and inability to see 10 years down the road that allows it

 

[General Lee]

The problem is you don't see how flying a jet with a whipsaw market off the mainline seniority list, that artificially keeps pilot wages low is selling out.

How is that NOT selling out GL?
The CRJ -900 IS in Delta's plans- they just don't want you to fly it. I'm sure they'd
outsource your 777's if they could- I don't blame mgmt for asking- it's DALPA's weakness, greed, and inability to see 10 years down the road that allows it

We are taking care of our side of the business. The Regionals have always had their part in a hub and spoke. Not every city can have a 717 or 737, as 17 of AT's former cities will soon find out. So, they are a separate side. Now, they have increased in size (fleet and plane wise), but that trend is now going DOWN, thanks to high oil. And mainline flying is growing thanks to new additions that will take back current large RJ routes.

You also seem to forget that the CR9 and other 76 seaters came out of BK. That was allowed while a judge watched. Since you haven't been there yet, you might not understand. Ask the AA guys how they feel about the new agreement with Republic. Not fun.

So, what can ALPA do? They could have asked for IT ALL BACK, but got nothing else in return. (also management would balk and it would have taken years, the NMB not being as friendly as you think) Or, ALPA could have taken a constructive approach that started the process of recapturing routes, increasing share in domestic flying (vs DCI), increased the share of INTL JVs and codeshares, and brought pay back in an upward motion. They did that, and things are headed in the right direction, but you just can't get it all at once. And, when you don't own all of the 76 seaters outright, it's hard to demand things from the owners, especially if they have solid contracts right now. It just doesn't work that way, Wave. Maybe it will for your next contract, but I sorta doubt it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Again, with the tired old arguments that I'm not making- you seem to have to embellish my arguments in order to defend dalpa pilots on that seriously dumb, damaging vote-

Answer this: how many -900's were allowed before the latest contract?

And now how many?

I never said take it all back. Show me where I said that?

Will or will not brand new -900's increase in number flying for delta?

Try and simply answer the questions as asked

 

[waveflyer]

ATL-EWR today

Flight 4950 cr7
Flt 5212 cr9
Flt 5044 cr7

Ord-dtw 4 out 8 flights are large RJ's e170's,cr7& cr9

JFK-CVG both delta flights are outsourced -900's
LGA-CVG all 5 delta flights are outsourced -700's

Should I keep going? I know you see it every day

CVG-DFW- 3 flights, no mainline - cr7, and 2 cr9's

ATL- OKC 5 flights, 4 large RJ's 1-700 and 3-900's

When's this mythical taking back of routes going to happen?

Because nothing spells "REGIONAL FLYING" like ATLANTA to NEWARK, just linking up a couple of Podunk towns, nothing more, eh?

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

The way Wave trolls our boards and whines about RJs and sell outs.......I'm starting to think he isn't at SWA.

Save the response Jackhole....I only get your stupidity when someone else quotes it.

 

[waveflyer]

Bum nuts

 

[Quack]

wave...this isn't anything new. Delta does it, American does it, united does it, us air does it...it's a business model that works for the parent companies, no different than SWA flying point to point, the model works for XYZ company. The largest change needed is for the big airlines to stop mislabeling their RJ carriers "Regionals" and start labeling them as Contract Carriers. And for Bombardier/Embraer/Mitsubishi to stop labeling their products as regional aircraft when they can cover 2,000 n.m.

 

[Scoot 11]

Just making sure you guys know what the industry thinks of you. We didnt forget. No need to puff out that double breast and act cocky- you aren't the best job in the industry and you've done quite a bit of damage.
A year later- it isn't forgotten-
You aren't USAPA- but you don't have a good track record-

So no acting cool on the van- we don't think you're cool, we don't care if you don't talk or thumb your noses up at anyone- you just look like an idiot when you do considering who you are and what you've voted for

Aaaw come on junior. Did I hit a nerve? You're just another legacy carrier. You bought your job, because you couldn't get hired anywhere else. It's ok sport. Enjoy that 20 year stagnation yanking yourself, and gear for that Air Tran pilot....who, by the way, ironically, didn't have to buy his job at Southwest!:laugh: