Delta Pilots stapled to the bottom of the list.

[jetjockey#1]

I am a "premerger" DAL guy, and a 1996 hire, and you need to tell the entire story. Yes, there are about FOUR OR FIVE late 96/early 97 hires flying 767 Capt out of LAX.

NOWHERE else in the entire DAL system is there a 767 captain (either domestic or international) hired prior to Jan 92...and those guys are near the absolute bottom.

There is not nearly as much distance between "an 89 NWA hire" and a 96 hire as your post would lead people to believe.




I predict that you will have one heck of a great career going forward at the new DAL, and that Lee Moak will have been an instrumental player in the process that enabled all that.

But you won't see it. In fact, I doubt you will even want to see it.

Sir, there is a huge difference, yes a 1996 B767 Cpt is the plug at DAL, just like a 1989 A330 Cpt is the plug at NWA. DAL hired 1710 pilots between 1989 and 1996, so that's your difference.
To put it in prospective, General Lee stated a few previous posts that NWA is planning on retiring 1000 pilots in the next five years, and that's supposed to be great, so you do the math. I would venture to say that 70% of NWA pilots today can hold higher paying equipment that they did the day before this merger. You think that's fair, fine, I do not. A five year fence would've prevented this.
Lee Moak might've had great intentions; however the NWA union from the day one was more aggressive, more set on their ways, and all or nothing attitude. DAL union from the very beginning talked about compromising, negotiating, both parties giving up some, so on and so forth, and honestly they came across as naive, and guess what, NWA union got the lion share of it all for their pilot group, and we DAL, compromised for the shake of the airline. NWA union did a superb job for their pilots, and I hope they keep up the good work from here on out representing all of us.
I am so glad you have such a good attitude, I believe you are going to need it, when you see partial stagnation on your own career, but that's ok, right?

 

[jetjockey#1]

Great post, thanks for telling the whole story. Luckily we only have a handful of these idiots on both sides. I look forward to a great career at a great airline!

yeah it's got to be great going from holding DC9-A320 to be able to hold mid way up the list of a widebody. I would feel the same way, if today I was able to hold a line on your B744.

 

[JohnQ]

Sir, there is a huge difference, yes a 1996 B767 Cpt is the plug at DAL, just like a 1989 A330 Cpt is the plug at NWA. DAL hired 1710 pilots between 1989 and 1996, so that's your difference.
To put it in prospective, General Lee stated a few previous posts that NWA is planning on retiring 1000 pilots in the next five years, and that's supposed to be great, so you do the math. I would venture to say that 70% of NWA pilots today can hold higher paying equipment that they did the day before this merger. You think that's fair, fine, I do not. A five year fence would've prevented this.
Lee Moak might've had great intentions; however the NWA union from the day one was more aggressive, more set on their ways, and all or nothing attitude. DAL union from the very beginning talked about compromising, negotiating, both parties giving up some, so on and so forth, and honestly they came across as naive, and guess what, NWA union got the lion share of it all for their pilot group, and we DAL, compromised for the shake of the airline. NWA union did a superb job for their pilots, and I hope they keep up the good work from here on out representing all of us.
I am so glad you have such a good attitude, I believe you are going to need it, when you see partial stagnation on your own career, but that's ok, right?

Well I don't think there will be as much stagnation as you think. However, given this merger, the only way for it to have been completely "fair" was a long-term "B" scale for prior NWA guys. Do you really think that would be best for the combined group? I do not.

The reason I had to submit my post was because back in Feb, many NWA guys were falsely claiming that 7ER captain was easily attainable anywhere for 1997 hires (and hardly any of our captains were older than 50, blah blah)...and that therefore they deserved the lion's share of goodies, including a SLI bump, due to the fact that we had "gotten ours" already.

I disputed that then with the same logic that I am your post now. We have literally five widebody captains at the premerger DAL that were hired 1996 or later. Your post implied that anyone hired in 96/97 could just bid for a widebody captain position any time he or she felt.

As for career stagnation due to this SLI...well, time will tell. I hope you are wrong. As for LM and his strategy...these arbtitrators are not stupid, nor have they never seen hardline grandstanding. I am convinced that this award would have been NO different had we opened with "staple all NWA pilots" and the NWA guys with "let's all just get along"--or vice versa.

The award was far from perfect, but I think as the years go on we will acknowledge that it was reasonable for the combined pilot group, even though there are any number of individual pilots who probably have legitimate gripes.

 

[jetjockey#1]

I hope I am wrong as well. I am not sure if the union's attitude would've been different, we would've got a different outcome. I guess we will never know.

As far as the B scale for the NWA guys, it's just plain silly. What I thought it would've been fair is for DAL pilots to get a one time check equaling the difference on the % of the pay raises. Remember NWA pilots furloughed in 01 who came back in 05 were on 4th year pay, today 8th year pay, I think it's great, their union did a heck of a job. I just wish we could say the same thing about ours.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Well I don't think there will be as much stagnation as you think. However, given this merger, the only way for it to have been completely "fair" was a long-term "B" scale for prior NWA guys. Do you really think that would be best for the combined group? I do not.

The reason I had to submit my post was because back in Feb, many NWA guys were falsely claiming that 7ER captain was easily attainable anywhere for 1997 hires (and hardly any of our captains were older than 50, blah blah)...and that therefore they deserved the lion's share of goodies, including a SLI bump, due to the fact that we had "gotten ours" already.

I disputed that then with the same logic that I am your post now. We have literally five widebody captains at the premerger DAL that were hired 1996 or later. Your post implied that anyone hired in 96/97 could just bid for a widebody captain position any time he or she felt.

As for career stagnation due to this SLI...well, time will tell. I hope you are wrong. As for LM and his strategy...these arbtitrators are not stupid, nor have they never seen hardline grandstanding. I am convinced that this award would have been NO different had we opened with "staple all NWA pilots" and the NWA guys with "let's all just get along"--or vice versa.

The award was far from perfect, but I think as the years go on we will acknowledge that it was reasonable for the combined pilot group, even though there are any number of individual pilots who probably have legitimate gripes.

Who do you think is going to bid the new 777 cpt slots. the 767 captains moving up to the 777. So the trend shows 76 cpt slots being filled by 96-97 hires, unless this trend changes and starts going the other direction, a 96-97 pilot was able to hold widebody cpt at DAL. I don't think that will be the case anymore after the SOC. You seem to think that's okay, and fair, fine, I do not. Once again, a five year fence would've avoided all the drama.

 

[JumpJetter]

This is AA/TWA 2001 all over again.

 

[Monster Buck]

Not even close.

 

[flynryan15]

I was in one of the first classes cancelled at NWA. I will be happy to trade with you so I can enure your mistreatment.

Are you initials R.H.?

 

[General Lee]

Cobra, Don't try to reason with this complete idiot.
He writes:
What a tool. Ever notice how no DAL pilots ever come to his defense here? He is an embarrassment to himself and his pilot group (which is now our pilot group too).
The rantings of a loser who thinks he is owed the world due to some perceived injustice. Read his history here and you can see he has hung his collective hat, in career and life in general, on that premise. He tricked the system by getting hired. That SHOULD be enough for him but, as you can see, it's not.

Speedbird, as others here have said: please quit. After all, there's more to life than the new Delta.

He's obviously nervous, so give him a little slack, although he does need to tone it down a bit. I think we are headed into better times, and Bastain said that in the webcast. We supposedly will have around $7.5 billion in cash, and maybe another acquisition may be in the works, that will make us even stronger. Also, atleast our guys (everyone) has the Compass deal to fall back on IF anything does happen.

And, even I am trying to mellow out a bit. I am fairly happy with the outcome, and am ready to tone it down A TAD, but still keep it entertaining. Hey, that is my job here at FI.......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Who do you think is going to bid the new 777 cpt slots. the 767 captains moving up to the 777. So the trend shows 76 cpt slots being filled by 96-97 hires, unless this trend changes and starts going the other direction, a 96-97 pilot was able to hold widebody cpt at DAL. I don't think that will be the case anymore after the SOC. You seem to think that's okay, and fair, fine, I do not. Once again, a five year fence would've avoided all the drama.

The company was involved too with the final negotiations, and they didn't want ANY fences. They wanted the flexibility to move planes around, HOPING that our combined pilots would just stay in their bases and not take moves, and fly the new planes. I think a 5 year fence on some of the planes is better than none..... As far as the future 777s go, it depends on what Delta does with the 787 orders. If they push them back and try to get the second version, or larger one, I would assume that would mean they aren't replacing anything, rather pushing them back. Our 777s we are getting now were pushed back due to a Boeing strike. If Delta states "we are replacing the 787s with 777LRs", then that is a different story. They have not stated that so far.(WSJ said they were thinking about it) Things happen, though......


Bye Bye--General Lee