Delta Pilots don't check for frost on wings

[callowayhd]

at some companies it is ok to take off with frost adhering to the BOTTOM of the wing caused by cold soaked fuel

 

[ACL65PILOT]

at some companies it is ok to take off with frost adhering to the BOTTOM of the wing caused by cold soaked fuel

It has more to do with the manufacturer specs.

Most can take off with less than a 1/4 inch of frost on the bottom side, but it has to be approved by the airplane maker.

 

[generaltso]

it was probably dew

 

[DH106]

If the original poster, batsky2000, wasn't such a useless troll, he'd have either defended himself by now or admitted his ignorance.

But, he hasn't spoken up in 3 pages of threads. Time to just let this thread die.

Just be glad that none of us will be on his supposed Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Who knows... it's probably a Microsoft Flight Simualtor G, anyway.

 

[pipejockey]

I can't speak for DL, but hot water is no longer an approved method to remove frost from the wings anymore, at least at WN. I'm sure that DAB doesn't have a way to deice Airplanes either. We've had this problem as well out in CA with cold soaked fuel frost and not having any way to remove it other than to wait for it to melt. It sounds like the crew did the only thing they could which was wait for the frost to melt. Sorry you missed your connecting flight.

I disagree. The other option was to not let a passenger dictate whether a plane departs or not. This putz should have been ignored. I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if we came to his office and started telling him how to do his job. Time to black out the windows I suppose. The cattle back there doesn't pay enough for the privilege of the view anyway.

 

[Linedriver]

I disagree. The other option was to not let a passenger dictate whether a plane departs or not. This putz should have been ignored. I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if we came to his office and started telling him how to do his job. Time to black out the windows I suppose. The cattle back there doesn't pay enough for the privilege of the view anyway.

You can't ignore or disregard a public comment like that, it has to be addressed by the crew and dealt with at that moment. If not, it opens the airline up to speculation and liability. The crew did the right thing. Hopefully the frost did form after the wing inspection and I'm sure that is getting looked into as well.

 

[Abernathy]

I disagree. The other option was to not let a passenger dictate whether a plane departs or not. This putz should have been ignored. I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy if we came to his office and started telling him how to do his job. Time to black out the windows I suppose. The cattle back there doesn't pay enough for the privilege of the view anyway.

You mean if a pax notices frost or ice on the wing that would be illegal to depart with, you would just ignore it because it was noticed by a pax?

 

[maru657]

The experience level at the FAA has dropped to an astonishing low as evidenced by their worries about frost. I'm hearing about FED's for major 121 carriers with no 121 or large airplane experience at all.

 

[relief tube]

I just want to say thanks to the Delta Pilots on yesterday's Flight DL1954 DAB to ATL for making myself as well as 3/4 of the rest of the passengers miss their connections.

The flight was set to depart at 0600, but taxied out at 0630. We taxied to the runway, stopped short of taxing onto it when a passenger told a FA that they saw frost on the wing, the Captain came out putting on his hat and jacket with a flashlight to look outside through the window, after a couple more looks we taxied back and he made the decision to wait till the sun came out to heat the wings and melt the frost.

My question is don't you guys do walk arounds anymore? That should have been found before you taxi out of the ramp. Plus when we got back to the ramp, these idiots never even walked out to inspect for themselves, they just waited till the sun came out.


Just for future reference, HOT WATER works great when by 0630 the temp was well abouve freezing.

Even if the flight left by 0700, everyone would have made their connections, heck the Delta flight that was due to fly after us, took off first

I was going to SMF, since I missed that I had to fly to SFO and drive, thanks.

What a bunch of idiots, morons, etc................

why the ******************** are passengers posting ******************** on here?

Seriously, this place should require your pilots cert. number to have an account so we don't have to listen to dumb ******************** like this.

As "idiotic" as that pilot was, he manned up by having the sense to not take off, embarassing as it was for him.

 

[EV120]

Remember this was DAL. Good goes around, great lands on Mike...

Couldn't resist, sorry.

 

[relief tube]

I think I speak for most airline pilots.....I don't give a sh-t if you make your connection. My job is to get you there alive and well.

exactly. we dont pick those 35 minute connenctions on orbitz for you. Hell, if there was no orbitz and no internet fare searches you'd actually be paying a fare that actually covers the cost and we wouldn't have lost 40% of our paychecks in this industry.

 

[Wesb737fo]

As far as the original poster, I read about half of his post and the " furloughed DL pilot " indicator lit up. Only to be confirmed by Voice of Reason a few post later.

I guess we haven't heard form Batsky because he checked into the funny farm after realizing what a tool he was. He's probably sitting in front of the television quoting TOP GUN lines....." Maverick...you'll get your RIO when you get to your ship...if not...call me ....I'll fly with you."

 

[Mike man]

I guess we haven't heard form Batsky because he checked into the funny farm after realizing what a tool he was. He's probably sitting in front of the television quoting TOP GUN lines....." Maverick...you'll get your RIO when you get to your ship...if not...call me ....I'll fly with you."

No way...he will post in a day or two with some terrific story about how he was doing something in China or Inner Mongolia for some fractional with growth opportunity, and didn't have internet because it was too primitive of a place but somehow has a need for a GV to fly in executives from Europe to go on a skiing trip with their family.

Or something like that...

 

[ex-nutjeter]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

 

[volav8r1]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

I was going to ignore this but i just can't. I'm curious where you flew all those airplanes in your profile?

1.) Assuming their is any validity to the original post (which I highly doubt), the crew would have requested a "tactile inspection" of the upper wing. If there was something there they would have de-iced. End of story! If there wasn't deiceing fluid available then there really isn't much choice but to wait till the contaminant melted.

The reason I ask where you flew all those big airplanes, is I would love to know which airline has a "Just throw some hot water on the wing" clause in their deice specs. Maybe the temp was above freezing, but even boiling hot water will cool very quickly when thrown on a cold soaked wing! especially when you take into account there is freezing cold fuel in that wing. Congratulations! You succeeded in melting the frost, but now you have a sheet of clear ice on a criticle surface! Seriously? You have never seen in the regs where it prohibits this?! Think about that statement! The regs don't specifically state I can't shut down both engines at 10,000 feet and coast in to the airport then restart & taxi to the gate either, but would that be a good idea?

Maybe in the Corporate Aviation world there is "always a way to make things happen". But in the "Airline World" we operate under a little thing called "SOP" (Standard Operating Proceedure). Maybe you are willing to put your ticket on the line to get "Mr. CEO" to TEB on time, but I am not at all willing to do the same to get people like the original poster to ATL in time to make a connection that he really had NO WAY of making anyway.

"Throw some hot water on it"!.....HA, that's a good one!!

 

[ex-nutjeter]

I wasn't looking at picking a fight, but how do you know that the fuel was freezing? Is it stored above ground, underground?? makes a difference..

Also, I never relied on someone else doing the "Tactle Inspection", I guess you are willing to risk you ticket on someone else telling you it is OK? You are the PIC, you are solely responsible, the blame will be on you no matter what someone else tells you.

You will loose your ticket for taking off with a contaminated wing, but to remove the contamination with hot water is not illegal, I have never seen that written in any SOP's that I have copies of. I have a copy of a Hot Water deicing procedures manual if you want. It is co-written by Transport Canada and the FAA. I have asked this question to a POI that I know, not illegal as long as it is not forbiden in your specific SOP's...

As to this guys flight, He said he was leaving DAB at 0600, if you look up the flights on delta.com, simple check, he would have had over an hour to make his connection to SMF, that is not tight, pretty normal, would have been easy to check before everyone nailed him for making a tight connection

 

[volav8r1]

I wasn't looking at picking a fight, but how do you know that the fuel was freezing? Is it stored above ground, underground?? makes a difference..

Also, I never relied on someone else doing the "Tactle Inspection", I guess you are willing to risk you ticket on someone else telling you it is OK? You are the PIC, you are solely responsible, the blame will be on you no matter what someone else tells you.

You will loose your ticket for taking off with a contaminated wing, but to remove the contamination with hot water is not illegal, I have never seen that written in any SOP's that I have copies of. I have a copy of a Hot Water deicing procedures manual if you want. It is co-written by Transport Canada and the FAA. I have asked this question to a POI that I know, not illegal as long as it is not forbiden in your specific SOP's...

As to this guys flight, He said he was leaving DAB at 0600, if you look up the flights on delta.com, simple check, he would have had over an hour to make his connection to SMF, that is not tight, pretty normal, would have been easy to check before everyone nailed him for making a tight connection

Not trying to pick a fight either. I have been doing this a long time so maybe i am just jaded by the airline game. There is a reason this is the safest sysyem in the world, its because we do NOT allow our pilots to just make up thier own proceedures. Throwing Water on a contaminated wing is NOT a good option. If it is cold enough for frost to form (whatever caused it) then introducing water without some form of Glycol mixed in, is a BAD idea, period! I am going to go out on a limb here and state that I doubt you will find a single OPS Spec at any 121 carrier that allows throwing water of any kind on the wings to melt ice. I can't believe i'm even having this discussion.

As far as relying on someone else to do your wing inspection, thats the way we do it at the airlines. We are not talking about wings that you can see the top of from the ramp. We are talking about Commercial Airliner wings that are between 10 and 30 feet in the air. I spent a lot of years on the 747 flying out of Anchorage. You couldn't see the top of that wing from the ramp if you wanted to. Much less put your hand on it to check it! When the conditions warranted we called for an "Upperwing Inspection". We rely on the trained personnel to tell us if we are contaminated or not. This is the approved proceedure by the FAA and our airline. NWA/DAL tells me this is how its done so thats the way I do it. On the other hand, if a pilot notices ice of any kind (outside our approved tolerances, in our ops specs) then we deice no matter what.

You are comparing Part 121 ops to, what i'm assuming, is Part 91 ops. Totally different animals!!! I will end this discussion from my end by emphasising that throwing water on a wing is NOT an approved proceedure at a 121 airline (for Damn good reason). Even if you could find enough hot water it is a bad idea for a myriad of reasons! I would think someone with the "Big" airplane experience you claim to have would understand 121 ops a little better. Or where those airplanes all flown in Part 91 ops.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

No time today...just a couple of many shenanigans

Hey all looks like the OP, batsky2000 has another screen name
ex-nutjeter instead of coming back as "himself". No time for the whole thing but here's two that point to same person...many others, including many airline bashing ones and bragging of many FF points and claiming whatever experience a given thread calls for

ex-nutjeter[/B];1954857]Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

5-16-2006 Just to mix things up a bit, Frontier has some real winners for captains, a captain who will remain nameless, while checking for contamination on the wings, could not see past the frost on the window at the emergency exit, opened the window and inflated the slide over the wing, well I guess it became contaminated then with a slide

"well folks we have a winner"

02-22-2007, 23:53 #15 ex-nutjeter
Registered User

Posts: 62
Civ/Mil: Both
A/C Flown: B-757,B-767,B-727,B-737,A319,CE-750
Ratings: ATP - look above
Total Time: 12,000


Just to give you guys a heads up on how fast the process is, I went to the Decenber 12th open house, was invited for a Feb. 2nd interview, got the e-mail that I passed phase 1 a week later on Feb. 9th, got a call from a recruiter on Feb. 13th that offered me an A320 class that starts Feb. 28th.

They are filling classes for both aircraft, just depends on your background, I have A320 time and Heavy PIC time in a B737, so I got the A320.

The speed in which you get a class depends on how fast you get through the background checks, I only had my current and 1 other employer since they only go back 5 years, and they both responded rather quickly with the PRIA paperwork.

Besides that, I was still suprised that I was offered a class that fast, in the e-mail that I got that said that I passed phase 1, it said that it could take up to 2 months to get a class, but then again, if your backgrond check go's smothly, then all is good.

Hope to get FLL Base, I am only 2 hours drive from there, so for any of the B6 pilots out there, how soon could I expect FLL as a newhire?

Good luck to you guys

 

[Griswold]

Hey all looks like the OP, batsky2000 has another screen name
ex-nutjeter instead of coming back as "himself". No time for the whole thing but here's two that point to same person...many others, including many airline bashing ones and bragging of many FF points and claiming whatever experience a given thread calls for





02-22-2007, 23:53 #15 ex-nutjeter
Registered User

Posts: 62
Civ/Mil: Both
A/C Flown: B-757,B-767,B-727,B-737,A319,CE-750
Ratings: ATP - look above
Total Time: 12,000


Just to give you guys a heads up on how fast the process is, I went to the Decenber 12th open house, was invited for a Feb. 2nd interview, got the e-mail that I passed phase 1 a week later on Feb. 9th, got a call from a recruiter on Feb. 13th that offered me an A320 class that starts Feb. 28th.

They are filling classes for both aircraft, just depends on your background, I have A320 time and Heavy PIC time in a B737, so I got the A320.

The speed in which you get a class depends on how fast you get through the background checks, I only had my current and 1 other employer since they only go back 5 years, and they both responded rather quickly with the PRIA paperwork.

Besides that, I was still suprised that I was offered a class that fast, in the e-mail that I got that said that I passed phase 1, it said that it could take up to 2 months to get a class, but then again, if your backgrond check go's smothly, then all is good.

Hope to get FLL Base, I am only 2 hours drive from there, so for any of the B6 pilots out there, how soon could I expect FLL as a newhire?

Good luck to you guys

Did you not want to wait for your SW class

 

[volav8r1]

I still want to know where he got his B-757/767, B737, B727, A320, etc.. time. Some of the things he said just don't add up to come from someone with all that experience. All in all I guess it doesn't matter.

Have a good weekend guys

 

[ex-nutjeter]

I give up, you have one guy VOR who has no Reason other than to dig up whatever he feels like without putting any input of his own, just another Jerry Springer wanna be...Then you got someone else that tells me you can't use hot water when the FAA and Transport Canada say you can, and have a manual for it.

And for your info, no, I have most of my experience in P135 ops, not much different than P121 ops, in some ways, more restrictive.

To VOR, I am not Batsky200 and I don't care either way who he is, I was just adding to the discussion of the topic, you seem to want to bring a Jerry Springer show to the forum... Good Luck with that!!

 

[ultrarunner]

..hen you got someone else that tells me you can't use hot water when the FAA and Transport Canada say you can, and have a manual for it....

Who cares what manuals the FAA and the Canuks have! Really!

What matters is WHAT is the the DAL FOM! Got it!

And if hosing down the top of the wing with hot water aint in the FOM, that's that!

WHY is that so hard to understand?

 

[ableone]

I believe that the hot water treatment is prohibited at most if not all 121 operations.

 

[General Lee]

Remember this was DAL. Good goes around, great lands on Mike...

Couldn't resist, sorry.

Didn't you just go off the runway in Peoria? Sorry, couldn't resist, and you guys obviously have more experience than a mainline crew flying from LAX to JFK. Sorry, couldn't resist, again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Metrojet]

Since everyone seems to have not liked the poster's thread, most of the reply's have been against him, and not about the topic. I want to get back to the topic at hand.

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

If your company sends an aircraft to a station that doesn't have the capability to de-ice/anti -ice, and you encounter ground icing conditions - then you cannot depart. End of story. Because if you decide to go - and this passenger expert has a smart phone with a video - the next thing you know - it will be on you-tube with your flight and date. Is your license worth taking a chance like that in todays world?

This is the real world we operate in today - and you have to understand that when you go to work.

Metrojet

 

[kmox29]

The experience level at the FAA has dropped to an astonishing low as evidenced by their worries about frost. I'm hearing about FED's for major 121 carriers with no 121 or large airplane experience at all.

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "as evidenced by their worries about frost", but I can say in our office we have a very good experience level. Additionally, in our office, every Inspector assigned to an air carrier has 121 experience.

 

[kmox29]

Who cares what manuals the FAA and the Canuks have! Really!

What matters is WHAT is the the DAL FOM! Got it!

And if hosing down the top of the wing with hot water aint in the FOM, that's that!

Absolutely correct. Operations Specifications A023 gives an operator the authorization to operate in known icing conditions. In that Ops Spec, it details the program the authorization is granted under (usually titled 'XYZ Airlines Ground Deicing Program').

If hot water deicing is not part of the A023 program, it doesn't exist for that operator.

 

[UALRATT]

You beat me to it! The only Idiot, Moron, etc... is the original poster. More and more pax these days are becoming beligerent "Backseat" drivers. I would be willing to bet that this specific situation didn't go down exactly like you described it. More than likely the original poster missed his (or her) connection and is a little pi$$ed.

Solution: Stop booking 30 min connections at some of the largest & busiest airports in the world!!! Problem solved! Some of you people sound like my wife...

"why would we take this flight? We are going to have to sit for an hour and 15 mins in detroit when we could take flight "XYZ" and we only have to stay in Detroit for 25 mins"

I have ZERO sympathy for you!!!! Coming on here and blasting a professional flight crew for what sounds to me to be a very suspect senario only shows your ignorance! Do us all a favor and please fly Southwest Airlines next time! They do not get frost!

You know some of the post on here does make sense but your's just sound like it coming from guy who's wife is holding out on him.

First your comment about more and more passengers these days are... I think the poster said that it was a passenger who passed the message of frost on the wing to the FA. Like a true professional the pilot came out to assessed it himself, and using prudent judgement elected to delay the departure (Clean wing policy).

Secondly, you were not present so be quiet.

Third, I have never known of a customer booking a connection. That's taken care of by the airline themselves. Besides, time is money and it's only us pilots who like to sit around airports twiddling our thumbs.

Ok, we don't have to sympathize with them when all most really ever think about is a cheap fare and then get out to the plane expecting whatever.

Look, it sums up everything that is wrong with the system. The mentality that the climate will VFR, 59 degrees C and 29.92 inches of mercury, 365 days of the year so no need to provide the basic of equipment to efficiently conduct your business. A system that measures it's performance on the time it pushes pack from the gate. A system that has to subsidizes it's sale of cheap seats by cutting of most of its fingers.

The question is had the passenger not told the FA about the frost on the wing would it have been a successful takeoff? We'll never know the answer to that but what we do no is that it doesn't take very long for the smallest issue to disrupt our daily patterns. A proper prefight requires visually checking the wing, and using ones understanding of existing limitations such as low light or visibility challenges, along with the knowledge of current atmospheric conditions it would be prudent to uses alternative methods like viewing through the cabin window or heck request a ladder. Fact is it needs to be checked as clean, and viewing limitations doesn't excuse it.

So you should be a bit forgiving to the poster.

 

[Glacialfury1906]

I am curious about something, if a passenger tells you they see frost, so you walk back with a flashlight and look out, make the decision to taxi back to the ramp, but don't go out to do a physical inspection yourself and just decide to wait for the sun? Would it not have made sense to do a tactle touch of the surface as required by the regs? Do they not have ladders at DAB? And I don't remember anything in the regs that says you can't use hot water to get rid of frost?, In places like DAB, that is your only choice, the original poster said the temp was above freezing, so the water would not freeze back anyways.

I guess that is the difference between corporate aviation and airline, we improvise to solve a problem to get out on time, I am not trying to add more fuel to the fire, but com'on guys, there are always ways to make things happen. It is too bad that the old days where the airlines would look out for their number 1 commodity are long gone, the days where they would hold a flight a few minutes so that a passenger would not have to miss their connection, things like that, now we are used to paying for everything and getting bad service for it.

A couple quick questions and no flamebait... When was the last time you did a physical inspection of your 767 wing? How did you get up there? Do you feel like telling the fed that you just "threw some hot water on it" would pass the BS test? I'm honestly curious.....

And honestly, if the (so called) number 1 commodity actually cared about anything outside of how cheap they can get from A to B, they wouldn't wear flip flops, pajama pants, and baggy jeans on the plane. My grandfather always used to say, "you get what you pay for." As long as they can walk off the plane at their destination, I can keep my job/ticket and they can use the plane again, everything else doesn't really matter to me...

 

[ableone]

I disagree. I'm not sure what you mean by "as evidenced by their worries about frost", but I can say in our office we have a very good experience level. Additionally, in our office, every Inspector assigned to an air carrier has 121 experience.

We have an inspector who's heaviest airplane was a king air.

She was not the only one.