Delta pilots-accuracy in reporting re:your contract

[redflyer65]

Apparently AirTran was the bomb gentlemen.

Bad pay, check.

RJ codeshare, check.

Airport reserve, check.

Hostile management, check.

Bad retirement, check.
You see when you have crap wages a higher retirement percentage doesn't even make up the difference.

No Profit Sharing, check.

Paid parking....oh yeah! NOW that's one hell of a benefit.

 

[taxicabdriver]

Ground times for Delta pilots, as I've been told from my Delta buds, are to ensure schedule preserverence. The weather can be somewhat challenging several months a year. This does need to change. However, I do agree the min pay per day needs to greatly improve. Any United bubbas have similar credit trips? Just for the sake of the hopeful newbs researching?

Min 5 hrs/day pay or tafb/3.5 are the trip rigs at ual and they usually build trips around that so they don't have to pay much soft time.

 

[HowardBorden]

That will be fixed due to several factors. Huge retirements, sustained profitability, consolidation, and new FARs dealing with work and fatigue rules.

Oh how quickly we forget!

There is only one US airline that has achieved sustained profitability. Maybe you can guess which one it is.

 

[Roomwithaview]

I'm still interested in trying to get an apples to apples as much as that is possible. Instead of using social media to beat each other to death with who has the biggest Johnson, how bout we stick to the facts. At least on this thread.

So, DAL, let's call it, min 4 day, blocks 21.4 x $210 = $4494
SWA min 4 day 26 x 189 = $4914

Beyond that is the bennies and deductions. Not a whole lot of bennies on the SWA side. PS?? is all I can come up with and that's after Kelly and the boys monkeyf$ck the numbers to meet their desires.

Deductions:
Self funded 401K
Union dues
VEBA
PMA
LTD
Parking
Uniforms

It all adds up. I max out my 401k and with FICA, state and local tax, SSDI that 15k is a shell of itself.

 

[redflyer65]

The funny thing is Bubba that Red started this by showing his ignorance yet again about DL trips, stating DL pilots had inefficient 4 days, and seemed to infer that that was the "norm", totally disregarding the multitude of other type trips DL offers. He started it, and I ended it.




Bye Bye---General Lee

Haha. Not really doosh, I provided factual data and you turned and ran. Typical of you when you are flat out wrong. Just ignore the facts and let the thread die, that's your MO.

Genny you need me to pull another 20 inefficient trips for you? Just let me know I'd be glad to help.

 

[PCL_128]

One man's "inefficient trip" is another man's relaxing day at work. You couldn't pay me enough to do those "efficient trips" that you love so much.

 

[pave driver]

I'm still interested in trying to get an apples to apples as much as that is possible. Instead of using social media to beat each other to death with who has the biggest Johnson, how bout we stick to the facts. At least on this thread.

So, DAL, let's call it, min 4 day, blocks 21.4 x $210 = $4494
SWA min 4 day 26 x 189 = $4914

Beyond that is the bennies and deductions. Not a whole lot of bennies on the SWA side. PS?? is all I can come up with and that's after Kelly and the boys monkeyf$ck the numbers to meet their desires.

Deductions:
Self funded 401K
Union dues
VEBA
PMA
LTD
Parking
Uniforms

It all adds up. I max out my 401k and with FICA, state and local tax, SSDI that 15k is a shell of itself.

I respectfully understand your desire to align all the numbers and make a neat spreadsheet however the crux of the matter is that it will never be an apples to apples comparison. I am also type A but as I age I quickly realize some quests such as this is nearly impossible.

I believe a lot of pilots point out the exception and not the rule comparing QOL and pay. We are no where near compensated as we should for our profession. Gloating, sensationalizing, exaggerating does not help our fellow pilots and it is counter productive to contract improvements. How long will you be a wide body Captain? Some one quoted 200 credit hours in a single month, for example, although only feasible 1% of the time. If this is the case, credit caps should be in place to increase staffing and help new pilots come on board and increase seniority for those already there.

There are countless differences between flying for a legacy vs an LCC. I would never compare a Merc to a Chevy. Sure they both get from A to B but they are just vastly different. I used to own a Jeep and loved to off-road in the Sierra Nevada. I just have changed as I age and now love my Merc. There is certainly a lot of nice driving Chevys but they can't compare. Nor can you compare most things tangible and intangible unique to different style carriers.

As we climb the seniority latter rapidly at the big 3, other things become increasingly important to most. With tremendous variety one is not stuck. Some like their old pair of jeans and that works for them! Some favor smaller family feel airlines and a few close friends. By the way, you can achieve a similar feel with small base/equipment if desired at the big 3. Most overlook this when job searching, pondering and comparing. However, larger carriers are more appealing to most when one projects their career in it's entirety. Some are happy to never fly a 73 the rest of their career. Many leg days are not for some. Some domestic 4 day trips the older folks love have 4 legs! 3 day 5-6 leg trips commutable each side is my current favorite color. I was bulletproof in my 20s and now not so much. As I get older I no longer desire 4 day trips (regardless of credit) nor short flights and many leg trips. Do you want just large cities and sometimes desire just press a few buttons for a nice quality delivered meal? Are foreign large cities desirable? Yes they are! Does your contract have high hotel standards? These things become increasingly important to most.

Can the following be quantified via a spreadsheet? I take my family on an average of 4 vacations per year around the world. Yes I certainly do! I feel it's vital to a child's upbringing. If one chooses to fly for Southwest, these trips would not be financially feasible year after year for most young pilots' families. The flights would literally cost 10s of thousands per year - priorities and opportunities. Do you have vacation passes? 95% of the time the flights can be made with well thought out planning and timing. For example, we took the kids out of school to "study" Geology in another country and they returned with a detailed Geology report as required by the school. We often leave before the last two days of a school break. What cost would you put on this (although continually declining) benefit? Time and education with family is priceless for most.

Pay for the big 3 will most definitely be the highest paying careers a pilot can choose, many varying factors applied, however everyone has a unique life and chooses accordingly. Of all I've read regarding choosing a company or career that makes one happy, none have ever said, "choose the highest paying company in your field." Too many things change down the road. The most important assessment of one's career was well said by Stephan R. Covey, "If the ladder is not leaning against the right wall, every step we take just gets us to the wrong place faster."

Nitty gritty very rough guesstimate of yearly big 3 pay in thousands current complete compensation= FOs avg. = $158k CAs average = $242k Upgrade time to narrowbody will near 6 years in certain. These numbers are not even remotely close to what they should be for our profession but will definitely improve in the very near future at the big 3. Sincerely, good luck to all!

 

[redflyer65]

One man's "inefficient trip" is another man's relaxing day at work. You couldn't pay me enough to do those "efficient trips" that you love so much.

Just to prove my point PCL, here's the other side of that coin at SW...


Day One: LAS-BWI-MHT (50 min ground time in BWI)
Day Two: MHT-MDW-BHM (1 hour of ground time in MDW)
Day Three: BHM-LAS (report at 915am Central)

Done in Vegas at 1130am local. By the pool drinking by 1pm.

Pay?

19.5 (block of 14, total of 5 legs)

That's ONE tough trip! Are there four leg days in the system? Absolutely, and those are going to pay 22-25 for your time on the road.

 

[General Lee]

Haha. Not really doosh, I provided factual data and you turned and ran. Typical of you when you are flat out wrong. Just ignore the facts and let the thread die, that's your MO.

Genny you need me to pull another 20 inefficient trips for you? Just let me know I'd be glad to help.

Ahahahaha! I thought you had my responses on ignore? You're the doosh! Just like you say not all of your trips are 5 legs to LBB, only good ones, right? Only 2 legs a day for you, no multiple leg days? Hilarious. Face it Red, both airlines have some bad trips, which probably go to junior pilots. But with 5000 pilots leaving one of the two airlines, your chances of remaining junior longer are better at your airline. You lose again Red. Better opportunities are available now at the 3 legacies. Tell me that isn't "factual."



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Just to prove my point PCL, here's the other side of that coin at SW...


Day One: LAS-BWI-MHT (50 min ground time in BWI)
Day Two: MHT-MDW-BHM (1 hour of ground time in MDW)
Day Three: BHM-LAS (report at 915am Central)

Done in Vegas at 1130am local. By the pool drinking by 1pm.

Pay?

19.5 (block of 14, total of 5 legs)

That's ONE tough trip! Are there four leg days in the system? Absolutely, and those are going to pay 22-25 for your time on the road.

How about one leg from ATL to Dusseldorf, with a 3 hour nap in a first class seat enroute and a nice meal? Take a nap when you land, wake up and have a great dinner with the crew, then the next day fly back to ATL with another 3 hour nap enroute and back in ATL around 115pm? You get almost 19 hours of pay, higher pre diem and an INTL override, 2 naps enroute, a great meal with the crew, and fewer legs to fly.

Better Red? Yeah. Huge retirements over the next 10 years allows more people to fly those types of trips, and that is just on the ER fleet, not the 330, 765, 744, 777, etc. All have their good and bad trips. Variety though is good, and the choice to try them all if wanted is there. Or, you can go back to domestic..



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

Just to prove my point PCL, here's the other side of that coin at SW...


Day One: LAS-BWI-MHT (50 min ground time in BWI)
Day Two: MHT-MDW-BHM (1 hour of ground time in MDW)
Day Three: BHM-LAS (report at 915am Central)

Done in Vegas at 1130am local. By the pool drinking by 1pm.

Pay?

19.5 (block of 14, total of 5 legs)

That's ONE tough trip! Are there four leg days in the system? Absolutely, and those are going to pay 22-25 for your time on the road.

redclown, stop trying to con people. We've seen your bid packets, and we know how rare those trips are, especially for people who aren't near the top of the list or who don't live their life sitting around a computer waiting for primo open time to hit. That said, it's not much better at DAL nowadays. Their -88 and 717 trips are atrocious.

 

[redflyer65]

Face it Red, both airlines have some bad trips, which probably go to junior pilots.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Are you that dense? Really?

Here's the point of the thread so you can follow along (and hopefully stay on topic)....

Delta has crap rigs. SW doesn't. Similar to codeshare.

Did I say anything about retirements, or LBB, or international? No.

I hope you get hired by Delta so you can actually bring us real info from the line. You've shown over and over again that you don't know the details about Delta. You know enough to look good initially, but when going a little deeper you fail. Good luck if you get an interview over there.

 

[redflyer65]

redclown, stop trying to con people. We've seen your bid packets, and we know how rare those trips are, especially for people who aren't near the top of the list or who don't live their life sitting around a computer waiting for primo open time to hit. That said, it's not much better at DAL nowadays. Their -88 and 717 trips are atrocious.

Again PCL, you have no clue because you aren't at SW. Just like Genny not being at either SW or DL.

Guess what happens to the trip I showed you? A lot of time it drops into open time because guys actually WANT to work harder to make more. I know that's a foreign idea to you.....working hard on the line. SW pilots many times are looking for the higher paying trips and they are really rewarded for it.

Why did I fly that trip above more than once? Sometimes I like to take break and still get paid 19.5 for an insanely low block. My next trip is the opposite. It's a ball buster that's going to pay close to 25.

At SW you can float or work your ass off. If you take it easy, you're still going to get a great rig for very little work. THAT's the difference.

PS - I'm not one to work the computer at all hours and I'm definitely NOT senior. So I'm not sure why you'd say I'm trying to 'con' people. The reality is you're just clueless about what goes on over here.

 

[zman]

I respectfully understand your desire to align all the numbers and make a neat spreadsheet however the crux of the matter is that it will never be an apples to apples comparison. I am also type A but as I age I quickly realize some quests such as this is nearly impossible.

I believe a lot of pilots point out the exception and not the rule comparing QOL and pay. We are no where near compensated as we should for our profession. Gloating, sensationalizing, exaggerating does not help our fellow pilots and it is counter productive to contract improvements. How long will you be a wide body Captain? Some one quoted 200 credit hours in a single month, for example, although only feasible 1% of the time. If this is the case, credit caps should be in place to increase staffing and help new pilots come on board and increase seniority for those already there.

There are countless differences between flying for a legacy vs an LCC. I would never compare a Merc to a Chevy. Sure they both get from A to B but they are just vastly different. I used to own a Jeep and loved to off-road in the Sierra Nevada. I just have changed as I age and now love my Merc. There is certainly a lot of nice driving Chevys but they can't compare. Nor can you compare most things tangible and intangible unique to different style carriers.

As we climb the seniority latter rapidly at the big 3, other things become increasingly important to most. With tremendous variety one is not stuck. Some like their old pair of jeans and that works for them! Some favor smaller family feel airlines and a few close friends. By the way, you can achieve a similar feel with small base/equipment if desired at the big 3. Most overlook this when job searching, pondering and comparing. However, larger carriers are more appealing to most when one projects their career in it's entirety. Some are happy to never fly a 73 the rest of their career. Many leg days are not for some. Some domestic 4 day trips the older folks love have 4 legs! 3 day 5-6 leg trips commutable each side is my current favorite color. I was bulletproof in my 20s and now not so much. As I get older I no longer desire 4 day trips (regardless of credit) nor short flights and many leg trips. Do you want just large cities and sometimes desire just press a few buttons for a nice quality delivered meal? Are foreign large cities desirable? Yes they are! Does your contract have high hotel standards? These things become increasingly important to most.

Can the following be quantified via a spreadsheet? I take my family on an average of 4 vacations per year around the world. Yes I certainly do! I feel it's vital to a child's upbringing. If one chooses to fly for Southwest, these trips would not be financially feasible year after year for most young pilots' families. The flights would literally cost 10s of thousands per year - priorities and opportunities. Do you have vacation passes? 95% of the time the flights can be made with well thought out planning and timing. For example, we took the kids out of school to "study" Geology in another country and they returned with a detailed Geology report as required by the school. We often leave before the last two days of a school break. What cost would you put on this (although continually declining) benefit? Time and education with family is priceless for most.

Pay for the big 3 will most definitely be the highest paying careers a pilot can choose, many varying factors applied, however everyone has a unique life and chooses accordingly. Of all I've read regarding choosing a company or career that makes one happy, none have ever said, "choose the highest paying company in your field." Too many things change down the road. The most important assessment of one's career was well said by Stephan R. Covey, "If the ladder is not leaning against the right wall, every step we take just gets us to the wrong place faster."

Nitty gritty very rough guesstimate of yearly big 3 pay in thousands current complete compensation= FOs avg. = $158k CAs average = $242k Upgrade time to narrowbody will near 6 years in certain. These numbers are not even remotely close to what they should be for our profession but will definitely improve in the very near future at the big 3. Sincerely, good luck to all!

Good post very true

 

[Roomwithaview]

pave

Nitty gritty very rough guesstimate of yearly big 3 pay in thousands current complete compensation= FOs avg. = $158k CAs average = $242k Upgrade time to narrowbody will near 6 years in certain. These numbers are not even remotely close to what they should be for our profession but will definitely improve in the very near future at the big 3. Sincerely, good luck to all!

Couldn't you have just said this?

I'll leave the d*ck measuring and touchy feely BS about the job to the SLI and "my girlfriend's hotter than yours" threads. FWIW, the down to earth nothing to prove ones were always the best in my world!

I am, however, looking for those numbers on the spread sheet. Just the facts so we (individually) can look at our peers and get a real understanding of where we stand on the basics:

Pay
Schedules
Time worked vs Time off
Sick Bank
Vacation Accrual and ROIC on Vacation
Retirement-The Good the Bad and the Ugly
Profit Sharing
Equity Stake for Mergers, Acquisitions
Medical
Retirement Medical
Ancillary Items, Parking, Uniform, Headsets

We didn't get where we are because a bunch of ND40 guys were hanging around the Oar house telling Herb what a great guy he is and he said, "Thanks, let me open up my check book and give you whatever you want!"

We did so through the CB process. By using our peers as a barometer. Not necessarily decrying, "Me Too" but deciding what is right (most important) for our place (yours) and fighting for that.

Being armed with specific information about where we stand compared to our peers empowers us against our adversaries (internal and external) when they attempt to bamboozle us with graphs, charts, road shows, power point presentations, and slick clay paper handouts that claim "WE WON!!!!"

 

[Roomwithaview]

Day One: LAS-BWI-MHT (50 min ground time in BWI)
Day Two: MHT-MDW-BHM (1 hour of ground time in MDW)
Day Three: BHM-LAS (report at 915am Central)

Done in Vegas at 1130am local. By the pool drinking by 1pm.

Pay?

19.5 (block of 14, total of 5 legs)

If that trip were in giveaway it wouldn't be picked up out of LAS. ATL, MCO maybe but not a 19.5 three day.

Trips like that are a dime a dozen.

Just sayin'

 

[pave driver]

Couldn't you have just said this?

I'll leave the d*ck measuring and touchy feely BS about the job to the SLI and "my girlfriend's hotter than yours" threads. FWIW, the down to earth nothing to prove ones were always the best in my world!

I am, however, looking for those numbers on the spread sheet. Just the facts so we (individually) can look at our peers and get a real understanding of where we stand on the basics:

Pay
Schedules
Time worked vs Time off
Sick Bank
Vacation Accrual and ROIC on Vacation
Retirement-The Good the Bad and the Ugly
Profit Sharing
Equity Stake for Mergers, Acquisitions
Medical
Retirement Medical
Ancillary Items, Parking, Uniform, Headsets

We didn't get where we are because a bunch of ND40 guys were hanging around the Oar house telling Herb what a great guy he is and he said, "Thanks, let me open up my check book and give you whatever you want!"

We did so through the CB process. By using our peers as a barometer. Not necessarily decrying, "Me Too" but deciding what is right (most important) for our place (yours) and fighting for that.

Being armed with specific information about where we stand compared to our peers empowers us against our adversaries (internal and external) when they attempt to bamboozle us with graphs, charts, road shows, power point presentations, and slick clay paper handouts that claim "WE WON!!!!"

You are searching for the unatainable. No one wins anything - it's all just grey area. The entire thing which you seek is a moving target. A small piece of the entire picture in a life long career does not an informed decision make! Interesting is your view to take a snapshot in history in "helping determine" the path of the professional aviator by informing them of just current compensation and contract. For pilots choosing a career, essentially marrying their employer FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE it is vital to assess the big picture and not just the current size of your johnson, err... paycheck and contract. Only the most imbecile and uniformed as well as uneducated, lazy, not willing to put in the research and work pilot would solely look at compensation and current contract as the deciding sole factor when choosing an employer for their final destination in their career. You sir, are as such! Good luck and enjoy!

For the more informed and work ethic minded professionals reading this, please do yourselves the honor of researching all the facts and not have a similar shortsightedness such as the aforementioned! Good luck to all.

At AA
Pay -12k/month
Schedules - 4 3 day trips/month - can drop 1 3 day per month
Time worked vs Time off - 12 on 18 off or 21 off if drop a 3 day trip
Sick Bank - 60hrs/year, 1000hrs max bank, rapid reacrual if out for 30 7.5/month
Vacation Accrual and ROIC on Vacation - 4 weeks per year, touched trips dropped
Retirement-The Good the Bad and the Ugly - 16% DC no match required
Profit Sharing - none. It will return next year in new contract.
Equity Stake for Mergers, Acquisitions - none
Medical - $58/month for a family of 4
Retirement Medical - very litttle
Ancillary Items, Parking, Uniform, Headsets - company provided.

 

[redflyer65]

If that trip were in giveaway it wouldn't be picked up out of LAS. ATL, MCO maybe but not a 19.5 three day.

Trips like that are a dime a dozen.

Just sayin'

It depends on if you want to take it easy but still make 19.5.

The first time I did it, the CA grabbed it on premium pay making 326/hr.

The second time a guy trade for it out of ELITT because he liked the low block.

I like the easy trips sometimes when I want to relax, get plenty of rest and get done early for drinks by the pool. Some of these trips get back by 9am local time. It's like another day off. It makes it hard to trade out of them.

 

[Roomwithaview]

You are searching for the unatainable. No one wins anything - it's all just grey area. The entire thing which you seek is a moving target. A small piece of the entire picture in a life long career does not an informed decision make! Interesting is your view to take a snapshot in history in "helping determine" the path of the professional aviator by informing them of just current compensation and contract. For pilots choosing a career, essentially marrying their employer FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE it is vital to assess the big picture and not just the current size of your johnson, err... paycheck and contract. Only the most imbecile and uniformed as well as uneducated, lazy, not willing to put in the research and work pilot would solely look at compensation and current contract as the deciding sole factor when choosing an employer for their final destination in their career. You sir, are as such! Good luck and enjoy!

Huh? You have no idea WTF you're talking about.
1. I'm here. I've "chosen" my employer
2. It's not about "winning". You've been listening too much to someone else.
3. It's absolutely NOT grey area. Hence the reason there are metrics like CASM and FOCASM.
4. Moving target? Absolutely! It's a FMV business, or a commodity. Our job is to make sure we get FMV for our services and show our employers we are a irreplaceable worthwhile commodity.
5. I've made it clear it's not all about compensation. However, compensation is a HUGE factor in determining FMV. Only an imbecile wouldn't see that!
6. Current contracts of our peers as well

For the more informed and work ethic minded professionals reading this, please do yourselves the honor of researching all the facts and not have a similar shortsightedness such as the aforementioned! Good luck to all.

I think you've lost your marbles. This thread is not about picking a team. It's about sharing information about CBAs so we can level the playing field and make informed decisions about how the offers from mgt stack up against our peers.

At AA
Pay -12k/month
Schedules - 4 3 day trips/month - can drop 1 3 day per month
Time worked vs Time off - 12 on 18 off or 21 off if drop a 3 day trip
Sick Bank - 60hrs/year, 1000hrs max bank, rapid reacrual if out for 30 7.5/month
Vacation Accrual and ROIC on Vacation - 4 weeks per year, touched trips dropped
Retirement-The Good the Bad and the Ugly - 16% DC no match required
Profit Sharing - none. It will return next year in new contract.
Equity Stake for Mergers, Acquisitions - none
Medical - $58/month for a family of 4
Retirement Medical - very litttle
Ancillary Items, Parking, Uniform, Headsets - company provided.

Thanks for that. Friends told me pilots got stock options for the takeaway of the A FUND in the BK. Most upwards of 130K

 

[General Lee]

It depends on if you want to take it easy but still make 19.5.

The first time I did it, the CA grabbed it on premium pay making 326/hr.

The second time a guy trade for it out of ELITT because he liked the low block.

I like the easy trips sometimes when I want to relax, get plenty of rest and get done early for drinks by the pool. Some of these trips get back by 9am local time. It's like another day off. It makes it hard to trade out of them.

You got called out Redclown (thanks PCL), and you lost! Two people stated those type trips you showed aren't prevalent at your base. Your credibility is still zero.


Bye Bye---General Lee