Delta pilots-accuracy in reporting re:your contract

[Roomwithaview]

And we all know profit sharing is not guaranteed, but thanks to Consolidation and bag fees, it's becoming more probable. Last year the profit sharing % was 8.25% of the individual's W2 (paid Feb 14th of this year). $20,347.25 per month (a low month on average for the 744 Capt) would mean a 12 month total of $244,167. If you add 8.25% profit sharing to that you'd get an extra $20,143, meaning the new total would be $264,310. (Paid out for this year). But, the current year has also equalled last years total in the profit sharing "pie", with two additional quarters to go. Rumor has it the profit sharing check could equal 15-16% of this year's W2, and if he/she made $244,167 this year, the profit sharing check would equal $36,625 (15%). So, fly the same hours next year and add the 3% raise due Jan 1st, you'd get $251,492 plus the profit sharing on Feb 14th, and those guys would make $288,117, flying a lower than average month. (77 hours on a 12 day 744 trip, then 30 days off until the next 12 day trip at the end of the next month). Not bad..... Beats 5 legs a day to Lubbock.



Bye Bye---General Lee

I don't want get into a d*ck measuring contest regarding the iron. We obviously don't have any other options than the 737. That being said, since I got here we re doing more 2 leg a day Scheds with coast to coast stuff being the primary focus. That's in my wheelhouse.

We're obviously falling well short in our total compensation and what the brain trust at swapa can't seem to get is the time to make hay is while the suns shining.

All the VEEPS, Kelly and his cronies are getting their money while we continue to fall woefully behind.

Thanks to all for posting!

 

[StopNTSing]

How many total 777 and 744 CA's are there at DL now?

 

[nwaf16dude]

476...............

 

[redflyer65]

Swa money is in the work rules. I am still trying to understand it as well. We had a 8 year SWA on the jumpseat who averages 16k a month with 16-17 off.

Bingo. The work rules can be very lucrative if you know what you are doing. Are we behind in retirement? Sure, and hopefully that will improve with this contract. The overall work rules are great.

I can typically average 130tfp that equates to north of 190k and I'm not half way up the payscale yet. The rigs are big here at SW. A 3 day pays 19.5 minimum, with some paying as high as 26. A 4 day is min 26.5. So the bottom line is you get paid very well for your time while you're at work. I think Delta has some 4 days that pay just over 20. Very inefficient in the end for your time away from your family and home.

 

[General Lee]

Bingo. The work rules can be very lucrative if you know what you are doing. Are we behind in retirement? Sure, and hopefully that will improve with this contract. The overall work rules are great.

I can typically average 130tfp that equates to north of 190k and I'm not half way up the payscale yet. The rigs are big here at SW. A 3 day pays 19.5 minimum, with some paying as high as 26. A 4 day is min 26.5. So the bottom line is you get paid very well for your time while you're at work. I think Delta has some 4 days that pay just over 20. Very inefficient in the end for your time away from your family and home.

And the six day Asia trip worth 40 hours? Is that inefficient? Delta has all types of trips, on different types of planes, all over the planet. How about doing a 12 day trip to Asia and then having 35 days off at home with your family until you do your next 12 day at the end of the next month? Enough time with the family, Red?? How about being home every night and doing Caribbean turns from ATL? How about trying a different fleet if you don't like the one you're on, and you are bored? He just doesn't understand.

Red prefers Amarillo where he thinks he is a "heavy." He has zero credibility and is incredibly jealous of legacy variety and choice, not to mention huge retirement numbers vs his certain stagnation at his airline.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

And the six day Asia trip worth 40 hours? Is that inefficient? Delta has all types of trips, on different types of planes, all over the planet. How about doing a 12 day trip to Asia and then having 35 days off at home with your family until you do your next 12 day at the end of the next month? Enough time with the family, Red?? How about being home every night and doing Caribbean turns from ATL? How about trying a different fleet if you don't like the one you're on, and you are bored? He just doesn't understand.

Red prefers Amarillo where he thinks he is a "heavy." He has zero credibility and is incredibly jealous of legacy variety and choice, not to mention huge retirement numbers vs his certain stagnation at his airline.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Do you ever actually address the question at hand, Gen'l? Because it sure doesn't seem like it. No matter what anyone says, you respond with Delta's "variety" of aircraft choices and flying to Amarillo (or LBB). As usual, that wasn't what anyone was talking about except,... uh... you.

They were talking about money, and how Southwest's work rules (rigs) protect the pilots' pay at a higher total rate. That was pretty much it. Nobody was talking about, and nobody in the discussion cares, if you can hopscotch between types of aircraft every year or two. Big freakin' deal.

Tell you what General, if you really want to be in this conversation--how about talking about the actual subject? Okay? So exactly how many Delta pilots can actually hold the choice lines you crow about above? A small percentage of senior international guys? And tell us, General: What does the junior guy get? What's the absolute least a poor junior guy can get working at Mother D? That was the whole discussion. Every Southwest guy gets a minimum of 6.5 per workday the company creates. Even the last guy on property. And it's usually more than that--and often much more--because those are inefficient for the company as well.

When people discuss being "tired" of flying only one type of plane, then your argument would be appropriate. Then you can tell us about getting to go back to the training center all the damn time. Then you can tell us about changing plane types so you can fly to something other than six or seven different cities. But until that discussion comes up, you might try to think of some new material.

Bubba

 

[Ty Webb]

. . . I think Delta has some 4 days that pay just over 20. Very inefficient in the end for your time away from your family and home.

Not necessarily. It depends if you are a commuter or not, and whatt he trips consist of.

I would rather work a commutable 4 day that paid 22 instead of a noncommutable 3 day that pays 20.

You leave the house at the same time, get home at the same time, but there are no commuting hotels to pay for, plus you return home better rested, and with the extra per diem.

Just something else to think about.

TW

 

[General Lee]

Do you ever actually address the question at hand, Gen'l? Because it sure doesn't seem like it. No matter what anyone says, you respond with Delta's "variety" of aircraft choices and flying to Amarillo (or LBB). As usual, that wasn't what anyone was talking about except,... uh... you.

They were talking about money, and how Southwest's work rules (rigs) protect the pilots' pay at a higher total rate. That was pretty much it. Nobody was talking about, and nobody in the discussion cares, if you can hopscotch between types of aircraft every year or two. Big freakin' deal.

Tell you what General, if you really want to be in this conversation--how about talking about the actual subject? Okay? So exactly how many Delta pilots can actually hold the choice lines you crow about above? A small percentage of senior international guys? And tell us, General: What does the junior guy get? What's the absolute least a poor junior guy can get working at Mother D? That was the whole discussion. Every Southwest guy gets a minimum of 6.5 per workday the company creates. Even the last guy on property. And it's usually more than that--and often much more--because those are inefficient for the company as well.

When people discuss being "tired" of flying only one type of plane, then your argument would be appropriate. Then you can tell us about getting to go back to the training center all the damn time. Then you can tell us about changing plane types so you can fly to something other than six or seven different cities. But until that discussion comes up, you might try to think of some new material.

Bubba

With 5000 guys leaving in the next 10 years Bubba, a lot of guys will hold great schedules, on multiple fleets. That is a huge difference that many of you guys can't see, and don't want others to see. And most people don't want to fly one type of plane forever, they just don't. If you got 787s out of nowhere, would you just stay on the 737? Of course you wouldn't.

I don't need new material, you guys just need to acknowledge the huge differences between your airline and the 3 legacies. 15,000 job openings between them means unbelievable upward movement and opportunities. That won't happen at some LCCs, unfortunately.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

With 5000 guys leaving in the next 10 years Bubba, a lot of guys will hold great schedules, on multiple fleets. That is a huge difference that many of you guys can't see, and don't want others to see. And most people don't want to fly one type of plane forever, they just don't. If you got 787s out of nowhere, would you just stay on the 737? Of course you wouldn't.

I don't need new material, you guys just need to acknowledge the huge differences between your airline and the 3 legacies. 15,000 job openings between them means unbelievable upward movement and opportunities. That won't happen at some LCCs, unfortunately.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You know, I just knew you wouldn't actually answer the question, no matter what.... again, as I figured you just go back to your normal shtick and talk about how great Delta is, regardless of the fact that what you're talking about has nothing to do with the discussion. Even when your irrelevance is pointed out to you. You're so predictable.

Well, at least you didn't disappoint me--as usual, your response has jack-all-sh!t to do with what people were talking about. Nothing new there.

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

Is that the guy from St George? Haha. I really hope he ACTUALLY get's hired at Delta. Fingers crossed Genny! Talk about a credibility problem. This guy has no credibility. As in zero.

Bubba,

He never has been able to hold a actual discussion about the topic at hand, so don't feel bad. Two facts, Delta has horrible rigs that didn't get fixed last time around and I'll go to LBB all day long if our company is making money on it. Hell, I'm there man. I don't even have any desire to go to the Caribbean or Mexico. Put me down for AMA and LBB.

The sad thing is, Delta can't make any money going to those towns and Genny thinks it's funny that we do. Shows what a psychopath he really is. Well, that and a zillion stupid post about an airline he wishes he worked for. Unfortunately it makes the real Delta guys look bad.

 

[pave driver]

The real issue with pay at my legacy and all 3 for that matter is we work far more for far less than decades ago. This issue needs to be fixed. But many don't do their homework and just take the first available offer. More collaboration needs to occur. For example, my friends at Delta and United were surprised I can drop a trip every month for personal reasons. I have done so almost every month. Look at the whole picture and choose wisely. I believe most can go where they want with great effort - prep and career enhancing positions and work (i.e. safety, training jobs). Many choose not to for various reasons and as such we all have different things we must uniquely contend with.

I will agree things are improving rapidly for the better at the big 3 and according to my squadron buds at the other carriers at United, Delta, Southwest, and my experience at a legacy, work rules are critical and should be improved and will be as these new contracts are negotiated. I've had friends tell me they feel as if they're on reserve every time they fly in and out of ATL and receive ACARS extensions quite often on the 88 and 90.

The one big thing to look at when choosing to go to a legacy is retirements because seniority is everything. Also, older pilots tend to work more weekends with grown families. This greatly improves a young pilot's chances of being home for their families. A contract with holiday pay has a similar effect for the young pilots with families. Can you drop trips and pick up another one? Other information is good to know as well. For example, a large amount of training causes buying trips from pilots and they get paid to not work. Retirements cause a lot of training events. Once the trip is bought can you fly another trip over the same footprint and make double pay? Yes I can! This is just one in many examples to research and target your choice job as well as retirements and future fleet plans as best as you can. What percentage of widebodies are there and what is the the minimum time to that position? Can you "create" a 8,9,10 day vacation every month if you'd so desire without working 12 in a row? 12 in a row (regardless of credit) is not my cup of tea. 3 on, 4 off and weekends/holidays off is right up my alley! To each their own of course. This job for many gets very old real fast. Can you go back to the right seat in the same equipment, move to other equipment? Are there contractual seat locks to upgrade?

Talk with and research until you have a clear picture. For example, I had no desire to spend 5-10 years in the right seat of a mad dog working 4-day trips Fri-Mon, in and out of ATL (puke) for Delta. I didn't care for stagnation, the 737 nor many leg trips only commutable on either end of a 4-day trip for Southwest.

Now to the OP point...sorry for the diatribe - some may benefit?

The overall annual compensation will be roughly the same as these contracts are built upon each other for similar aircraft at the big 3 so ensure you choose wisely. Good luck to all hopefuls researching for your final destination because, you will ultimately marry it!

 

[General Lee]

You know, I just knew you wouldn't actually answer the question, no matter what.... again, as I figured you just go back to your normal shtick and talk about how great Delta is, regardless of the fact that what you're talking about has nothing to do with the discussion. Even when your irrelevance is pointed out to you. You're so predictable.

Well, at least you didn't disappoint me--as usual, your response has jack-all-sh!t to do with what people were talking about. Nothing new there.

Bubba

The funny thing is Bubba that Red started this by showing his ignorance yet again about DL trips, stating DL pilots had inefficient 4 days, and seemed to infer that that was the "norm", totally disregarding the multitude of other type trips DL offers. He started it, and I ended it.

And it love your "you didn't answer the question" BS.... I easily proved you and Red wrong. With 5000 retirements, many DL pilots will have great schedules, for years....


You want me to stay on topic? Start with Red, and start by acknowledging his total ignorance about DL pilot trips. You're welcome.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The real issue with pay at my legacy and all 3 for that matter is we work far more for far less than decades ago. This issue needs to be fixed. But many don't do their homework and just take the first available offer. More collaboration needs to occur. For example, my friends at Delta and United were surprised I can drop a trip every month for personal reasons. I have done so almost every month. Look at the whole picture and choose wisely. I believe most can go where they want with great effort - prep and career enhancing positions and work (i.e. safety, training jobs). Many choose not to for various reasons and as such we all have different things we must uniquely contend with.

I will agree things are improving rapidly for the better at the big 3 and according to my squadron buds at the other carriers at United, Delta, Southwest, and my experience at a legacy, work rules are critical and should be improved and will be as these new contracts are negotiated. I've had friends tell me they feel as if they're on reserve every time they fly in and out of ATL and receive ACARS extensions quite often on the 88 and 90.

The one big thing to look at when choosing to go to a legacy is retirements because seniority is everything. Also, older pilots tend to work more weekends with grown families. This greatly improves a young pilot's chances of being home for their families. A contract with holiday pay has a similar effect for the young pilots with families. Can you drop trips and pick up another one? Other information is good to know as well. For example, a large amount of training causes buying trips from pilots and they get paid to not work. Retirements cause a lot of training events. Once the trip is bought can you fly another trip over the same footprint and make double pay? Yes I can! This is just one in many examples to research and target your choice job as well as retirements and future fleet plans as best as you can. What percentage of widebodies are there and what is the the minimum time to that position? Can you "create" a 8,9,10 day vacation every month if you'd so desire without working 12 in a row? 12 in a row (regardless of credit) is not my cup of tea. 3 on, 4 off and weekends/holidays off is right up my alley! To each their own of course. This job for many gets very old real fast. Can you go back to the right seat in the same equipment, move to other equipment? Are there contractual seat locks to upgrade?

Talk with and research until you have a clear picture. For example, I had no desire to spend 5-10 years in the right seat of a mad dog working 4-day trips Fri-Mon, in and out of ATL (puke) for Delta. I didn't care for stagnation, the 737 nor many leg trips only commutable on either end of a 4-day trip for Southwest.

Now to the OP point...sorry for the diatribe - some may benefit?

The overall annual compensation will be roughly the same as these contracts are built upon each other for similar aircraft at the big 3 so ensure you choose wisely. Good luck to all hopefuls researching for your final destination because, you will ultimately marry it!

That will be fixed due to several factors. Huge retirements, sustained profitability, consolidation, and new FARs dealing with work and fatigue rules. Legacy pilots have had a tough decade due to BKs and contraction, but as retirements ramp up, upgrade and higher seniority will increase QOL and pay. From today, ten years in the right seat of an MD88 isn't really possible anymore (unless you want to be the top of a Category), there are bids every 6-8 weeks with new Capt positions, and the bulk of the Widebody pilot retirements haven't even started yet. When they do, upward movement will be fast. That means higher pay, better schedules, different types of flying available if you are bored. You just can't get that at a LCC today, yet you will at all 3 legacies. 15,000 pilots will be retiring. That is amazing, and pilots getting on now will do well at all 3.

There may be reserves in ATL on the 88/90 getting reroutes enroute today. With 85 new hires each month through next April and then 50 a month indefinitely after that, doubt anyone will be on reserve for long.... And the big retirements haven't even really started yet.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

The funny thing is Bubba that Red started this by showing his ignorance yet again about DL trips, stating DL pilots had inefficient 4 days, and seemed to infer that that was the "norm", totally disregarding the multitude of other type trips DL offers. He started it, and I ended it.

And it love your "you didn't answer the question" BS.... I easily proved you and Red wrong. With 5000 retirements, many DL pilots will have great schedules, for years....


You want me to stay on topic? Start with Red, and start by acknowledging his total ignorance about DL pilot trips. You're welcome.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Actually, Red was talking with Zman about how to make money at Southwest with rigs and minimum pay protections. Rigs and protections that apply to every single pilot on property. It wasn't really to do with Delta trips, until you chimed in, because you couldn't stand for anything good to be associated with Southwest.

And again, what's the minimum your junior guys can get paid? What small percentage can get those choice trips that you mentioned? And I mean today, not in 10 to 15 years from now? Or even more than that, since NWAF16Dude mentioned that your junior 777 and 747 captains have nearly 30 years in.

Dude, you're a broken record: someone could ask you for the friggin' time of day, and all you'd reply is how much variety you have at Delta, and how that's fantastic!

Bubba

 

[pave driver]

That will be fixed due to several factors. Huge retirements, sustained profitability, consolidation, and new FARs dealing with work and fatigue rules. Legacy pilots have had a tough decade due to BKs and contraction, but as retirements ramp up, upgrade and higher seniority will increase QOL and pay. From today, ten years in the right seat of an MD88 isn't really possible anymore (unless you want to be the top of a Category), there are bids every 6-8 weeks with new Capt positions, and the bulk of the Widebody pilot retirements haven't even started yet. When they do, upward movement will be fast. That means higher pay, better schedules, different types of flying available if you are bored. You just can't get that at a LCC today, yet you will at all 3 legacies. 15,000 pilots will be retiring. That is amazing, and pilots getting on now will do well at all 3.

There may be reserves in ATL on the 88/90 getting reroutes enroute today. With 85 new hires each month through next April and then 50 a month indefinitely after that, doubt anyone will be on reserve for long.... And the big retirements haven't even really started yet.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Yes...all true! I have 3 friends I have helped leave their LCC. They were surprised when I informed them of several facts. It should be common knowledge! All contracts should be "cliff-noted" and easily attainable for the hopeful. Looking forward to more pay for less days and variety! It is, of my opinion, a great time for us at the big 3. We need to collaborate and build with each new contract better QOL and total compensation. I think this is a certainty that we will do. The time is now.

 

[redflyer65]

Here are just one example that I found without even looking hard...

ATL MD88 (Sept)

Pairing #6097

Day One: ATL-DCA-ATL-CLT (1:16 ground time in ATL)
Day Two: CLT-DTW-BWI-ATL-GSO (ground time of 1.06,1:51,1.00)
Day Three: GSO-ATL-PVD (ground time 2.02)
Day Four: PVD-ATL-MLB-ATL ( 3 hours of ground time in ATL)

So the trip is 3 legs, 4 legs, 2 legs, 3 legs and pays....


Wait for it...



21.4 - Does that sound very efficient? SW rig would pay min 26.

How about a three day that pays 16? There's plenty if that's your gig.

 

[Bake]

That sucks.

 

[redflyer65]

That's what a 2 and 3 hour sit do for your overall pay, but on the bright side there's plenty of time to perfect your double breasted terminal walk for the ladies. Don't for the hat, of course.

 

[pave driver]

Here are just one example that I found without even looking hard...

ATL MD88 (Sept)

Pairing #6097

Day One: ATL-DCA-ATL-CLT (1:16 ground time in ATL)
Day Two: CLT-DTW-BWI-ATL-GSO (ground time of 1.06,1:51,1.00)
Day Three: GSO-ATL-PVD (ground time 2.02)
Day Four: PVD-ATL-MLB-ATL ( 3 hours of ground time in ATL)

So the trip is 3 legs, 4 legs, 2 legs, 3 legs and pays....


Wait for it...



21.4 - Does that sound very efficient? SW rig would pay min 26.

How about a three day that pays 16? There's plenty if that's your gig.

Ground times for Delta pilots, as I've been told from my Delta buds, are to ensure schedule preserverence. The weather can be somewhat challenging several months a year. This does need to change. However, I do agree the min pay per day needs to greatly improve. Any United bubbas have similar credit trips? Just for the sake of the hopeful newbs researching?

 

[PCL_128]

Dude, you're a broken record

"Dude," so are SWA pilots!

"Your retirement sucks."
"Yeah, but did you see my W2?"

"Your reserve work rules are nonexistent."
"Yeah, but look again at my W2!"

"Your trips aren't commutable."
"Seriously, dude, look at my W2!!!!"