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Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

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Your ignorance is showing again.

DTW has 2200+ pilots, including the bulk of our 330, and all the 747-400 positions, and everything in between. Do you really think they are all going to drop what they are doing to rush south of the Mason Dixon line so they can eat grits and hush-puppies and chew tobacco?

MSP has the highest percentage of pilots who live in base - most of them are not going anywhere.

Just like you we have pilots who live all over, and some North and South, but a huge demographic shift with a merge is not going to happen.

This deal will happen when you guys stop being so impressed with yourselves and stop acting like mainline pilots with SJS. We don't want you or need you, and if you don't want to bargain in earnest we'll be seeing you with the arbitrator, or better yet, not at all.

Heyas F4H,

Absolutely accurate.

What the "general" convienently forgets is that the one thing that NWA hubs DO lack lack is worthwhile LCC competition. DTW has a VERY small splash of SWA and Tranny with Spirit in full speed rewind.

MSP? A touch of Sun Country and Tranny. No SWA in sight.

MEM? Some Tranny flights, and that's about it.

IND? Hardly a "hub", but both ATA and Tranny couldn't leave fast enough.

DAL? Ooooh, hmmm, lots of yield busting Tranny in their own house there, as well as JB in JFK and SWA at SLC.

DAL couldn't give their 100 seat flying away fast enough. On top of that, they just about GAVE those very airplanes away to a competitor that promptly used them to destroy DAL yields in their own "fortress hub". Nothing like handing a burglar the gun with which he shoots you.

It makes the guy who made the call to re-manufacture the -9s at NWA for a mere $2 mil a copy versus $18-22 mil per RJ or 717 look pretty smart. Had DAL done the same thing, think about how many MORE DAL pilots there would be. In the end analysis, it's all about the guys ON YOUR PROPERTY. One more airplane, even the small ones, means 10-16 more guys, and 5-8 more upgrades, and one less airplane flown by people trying to drag your wages down.

As far as the cold North places, like OMA, FSD, FAR (which NWA has been serving since 1928) and the like, the DAL boyos' new hero, RA, said it best himself "they may be cold and dark, but they're all OURS". It isn't about the size of your airplane, but the size of the yield. MOT might be cold, and the walkarounds might suck, but the full flights of full fare paying passengers makes for a healthy bottom line, as do the FULL flights from NRT to other Asia cities, filled with Japanese passengers.

Nu
 
Heyas F4H,

Absolutely accurate.

ABSOLUTELY.....NOT.

What the "general" convienently forgets is that the one thing that NWA hubs DO lack lack is worthwhile LCC competition. DTW has a VERY small splash of SWA and Tranny with Spirit in full speed rewind.

That's great, and it really is your only good thing about your cool hubs and old domestic planes. You do hold fortress hubs, which is good. Your old planes, though, need work. Anderson may have loved them when Oil was cheaper, but not now. And you are starting to park the DC9s (30 -30s this year, right?). It won't get any better with high oil.

MSP? A touch of Sun Country and Tranny. No SWA in sight. Do we have SWA at any of our hubs? A little in SLC, and a bit in LAX, but that is it too. Airtran is our competitior in ATL, and is trying to be yours in MSP. The thing is that Airtran can't get any more gates in ATL or MSP currently.

MEM? Some Tranny flights, and that's about it.

IND? Hardly a "hub", but both ATA and Tranny couldn't leave fast enough. Your IND is an RJ hub mainly. How many mainline flights do you have out of there a day anyway?

DAL? Ooooh, hmmm, lots of yield busting Tranny in their own house there, as well as JB in JFK and SWA at SLC.

Airtran does not compete with any of our INTL flights, and a lot of our domestic pax are connecting onto our numerous INTL flights. We have more INTL flights from ATL than you do in all of the United States. (any of your hubs, combined) We control 70% of the traffic at the busiest airport in the world. You control Detroit and MSP, places nobody wants to visit for fun. Wow. Southwest does compete with us at SLC, but often on one flight a day to certain cities. There are no extra gates in SLC for them to use either. Controlled growth.

DAL couldn't give their 100 seat flying away fast enough. On top of that, they just about GAVE those very airplanes away to a competitor that promptly used them to destroy DAL yields in their own "fortress hub". Nothing like handing a burglar the gun with which he shoots you.

We have 76 seaters doing 100 seat markets right now, filling the planes. You have old DC9s that are being parked this year (30 of them). Sounds like your 100 seat market is going away too. How many people does a DC9-40 or -50 hold? We have 737-700s coming this year, which will regain some of that market, along with a new carpet smell. How do those DC9s smell? Like the 1960s? Who did we give our airplanes to? I don't know what you mean? Again, we own 70% of the largest airport in the world. ATL makes MSP and DTW look like St Cloud.

It makes the guy who made the call to re-manufacture the -9s at NWA for a mere $2 mil a copy versus $18-22 mil per RJ or 717 look pretty smart. Had DAL done the same thing, think about how many MORE DAL pilots there would be. In the end analysis, it's all about the guys ON YOUR PROPERTY. One more airplane, even the small ones, means 10-16 more guys, and 5-8 more upgrades, and one less airplane flown by people trying to drag your wages down.

We are looking at getting fairly new (anything is fairly new compared to your old DC9s) MD90s that are now readily available. 100 are out there (Saudia just put 28 up for sale), and they are newer and can carry more people, farther, than your old embarrassing planes. Really, people who say it is "a real pilot's plane" are confused. And guess what? We are getting NEW planes. We are hiring 100 this month alone. We are doing this while you are ditching planes, and hiring a bit for attrition. You have old planes (DC9s and 742s) and they will be gone soon. We are getting 3 777LRs this year, and 6 in the first three months of next year. Do you know how many pilots that will take? They are LRs, meaning LONG RANGE. That means 2 Captains and 2 FOs per flight. Australia just opened up open skies, and we have the rights to go to Singapore, New Zealand, and Samoa. Where is the 787 in the flight test process? It hasn't started yet? Bummer.

As far as the cold North places, like OMA, FSD, FAR (which NWA has been serving since 1928) and the like, the DAL boyos' new hero, RA, said it best himself "they may be cold and dark, but they're all OURS". It isn't about the size of your airplane, but the size of the yield. MOT might be cold, and the walkarounds might suck, but the full flights of full fare paying passengers makes for a healthy bottom line, as do the FULL flights from NRT to other Asia cities, filled with Japanese passengers.

The great thing is that all of the LCCs out there KNOW where the highest fares are, and as they expand and have to put planes somewhere, they will. They may enter OMA (like SWA has) and take your connecting passengers away, so they don't go through MSP and go through MDW instead. They will look for opportunities, and you will be faced with the same thing the rest of us are. The LCCs have to put their new planes somewhere. And I think it is great that you are Tokyo's favorite airline.....riiight. Somehow I think JAL and ANA think otherwise. They do have a heck of a lot more flights to those same cities you go to from NRT, while you throw on one A330, etc. Don't lie to yourself, and the rest of us.



Nu

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
We have 76 seaters doing 100 seat markets right now, filling the planes. You have old DC9s that are being parked this year (30 of them). Sounds like your 100 seat market is going away too. How many people does a DC9-40 or -50 hold? We have 737-700s coming this year, which will regain some of that market, along with a new carpet smell. How do those DC9s smell? Like the 1960s? Who did we give our airplanes to? I don't know what you mean? Again, we own 70% of the largest airport in the world. ATL makes MSP and DTW look like St Cloud.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Since you were so interested in the size and age, oh and lets not forget the "smell" of the DC-9. I hope this info helps. ;)


[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The DC-9-40 and DC-9-50 are stretched developments of the DC-9-30 and predecessors to the later further lengthened MD-80 and MD-90 series.

The DC-9-40 was developed in response to a Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) requirement for a larger capacity development of the DC-9. Compared with the DC-9-30, the DC-9-40 is 1.88m (6ft 2in) longer, raising seating capacity in a single class configuration to 125. Apart from the fuselage stretch and more powerful engine options, the -40 was the much the same as the -30. First flight occurred on November 28 1967, and the -40 entered service with SAS on March 12 the following year.

The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
The DC-9-40 and -50 sold only in fairly modest numbers before the arrival of the further stretched MD-80 series. The largest DC-9-40 customer was SAS, while Northwest continues to operate a large fleet of DC-9-40s and -50s (it is currently the largest DC-9 operator in the world).
[/FONT]
 
Since you were so interested in the size and age, oh and lets not forget the "smell" of the DC-9. I hope this info helps. ;)


[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The DC-9-40 and DC-9-50 are stretched developments of the DC-9-30 and predecessors to the later further lengthened MD-80 and MD-90 series.

The DC-9-40 was developed in response to a Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) requirement for a larger capacity development of the DC-9. Compared with the DC-9-30, the DC-9-40 is 1.88m (6ft 2in) longer, raising seating capacity in a single class configuration to 125. Apart from the fuselage stretch and more powerful engine options, the -40 was the much the same as the -30. First flight occurred on November 28 1967, and the -40 entered service with SAS on March 12 the following year.

The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
The DC-9-40 and -50 sold only in fairly modest numbers before the arrival of the further stretched MD-80 series. The largest DC-9-40 customer was SAS, while Northwest continues to operate a large fleet of DC-9-40s and -50s (it is currently the largest DC-9 operator in the world).
[/FONT]

Thanks for the info. Our MD88s carry 146 I believe, and the MD90s are close. I think our 737-700s will carry about 125 also. I think we get 6 or 7 737-700s this year, and will have a total of about 25. Their missions will be hot and high stuff (Quito, Ecuador, Reno, Vail, etc).

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Not even close.


Wrong, square. Your senior have a DB our senior do not. We have a 9 +2% DC. Our junior have a better career expectation than their equivalent at NWA. We are square re: DB and retirements.



Wow, is all I can say. I just never knew NWA was in so much trouble. Our A/c retirements have been planned. Compass, yup increasing. We held on to scope longer than DAL did. Have Comair, ASA, Skywest increased in size lately? Nice try, though. How did an airline 30% smaller than you make more money than any other legacy carrier last year? Save us, quick.


I am not talking about anybody saving anybody. Get the red out of your eyes for a second and look at the big picture of large airline stability. Simply put, the airline will be too big to allow failure. If that airline fails, reregulation is to follow. I am not talking about anybody saving anybody. Clearly, neither side needs saved. However, the dealt is too good to pass up over a few overinflated egos from the junior side of NWA hoping for some early outs to increase their career outlook. Same for Delta new-hires.

Coffee coming out my nose.


So what are you saying? That I am wrong and NWA did not ask to resume negotiations?

So your, "speculation is speculation" only applies to NWA. O.K., got it.

That is not speculation. Speculation is trying to figure out how many early retirees will actually go from NWA. The CEO of Delta describing the stand-alone plan of Delta and referring to a major order of widebodies is not speculation.


Looking objectively at the trend of our two airlines, you are more profitable and going towards less. We are less profitable and headed towards more.

Show me some numbers, Mr. Specualtion. Facts: we have more cash, better margins, less debt. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS!!!! .

I think that is what I said, except that your margins are going down. it is merely a rebuttal to the useless commentary that NWA is more profitable. You are so merely because the LCC have not worked their way into your hubs yet. it is a matter of time. perhaps we will revisit the merger then.




Not worth a little cash. PERIOD.

Fair enough, but it is likely that the deal will come back without the cash, go to arbitration, and you will likely lose anyway. Our new-hires are widebody f/os. Our 777 captains make more than your 747 captains. Precedent has shown that these are the controlling factors as of late. I guess we are likely just going to have to go through the "house burning down" phase after all.

Oh well.
 
Thanks for the info. Our MD88s carry 146 I believe, and the MD90s are close. I think our 737-700s will carry about 125 also. I think we get 6 or 7 737-700s this year, and will have a total of about 25. Their missions will be hot and high stuff (Quito, Ecuador, Reno, Vail, etc).

Bye Bye--General Lee


Well thats good info also. Both planes are very capable and proven reliable. The -9 could be updated and keep flying for much cheaper than the cost of buying new planes. The airforce did it to their -9s. see below

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Navy/McDonnell-Douglas-C-9B/1117011/L/
 
The C-9 is retired from the Air Force, but an upgrade like that and some new engines could keep the DC9 going for a long time
 
We control 70% of the traffic at the busiest airport in the world. You control Detroit and MSP, places nobody wants to visit for fun. Wow.

Correct me if I'm wrong but did you insinuate that people visit Atlanta Georgia for fun?

Yeah, OK. With it's vast beaches and polite laid back atmosphere NOT.

I'm pretty sure people go there for one of two reasons. Connecting flight or business.

Fun...yeah right.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but did you insinuate that people visit Atlanta Georgia for fun?

Yeah, OK. With it's vast beaches and polite laid back atmosphere NOT.

I'm pretty sure people go there for one of two reasons. Connecting flight or business.

Fun...yeah right.
They also go there for carjackings and grits
 
At 16% what is your DOH approximately? Just wondering...


So let me get this straight,you only want to count the retirements for the next 10 years and not out farther than that? Why would that be? Because it fits your agenda. And what would be the seniority integration that was making the rounds? We finally heard what it was from our LEC reps this week and to tell you the truth I don't know how you couldn't consider it a windfall.

The integration that we were giving was a relative seniority where if you are at say 16% off the bottom now (my actual seniority) then you would be 16% off the bottom of the new airline.

I looked at your latest bids and someone with my relative seniority 16% off the bottom can hold block holder on the A320 or the DC9 and reserve on the 757. Compare that to here at Delta you would hold lineholder on the MD88, 767 Dom and International the 737-800 and Capt on the MD88 NYC. So without fences how again are you losing anything? This is a serious question. You already stated that the retirements even out eventually. I want someone to enlighten me, because from where I sit this is going to cause me to move backward.
 
Here is one issue that may appeal to the former Republic guys.

- As I understand it, NWA's fences have come down, and everything is straight DOH...but "no bump, no flush" which means that the Green book guys still can't fly the -400 since there are no openings, and won't be for a long time.

- At NWA, >12 hour flights are flown with one capt and three FOs.

- At DAL, the rule is two capts and two FOs.

- If we were to merge, we are assuming DAL's workrules.

- Does that mean that there will instantly be some openings for -400 captain that Green book guys can bid on? If that is true, you would think that the merger committee head, a Republic sort, would be all over this SLI (not to mention the dozen or so 777s we are getting, ALL of which will require a lot more widebody captains).

Anyone who wants to call foul please do so.
 

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