Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[FDJ2]

Don't forget the "Our jackets are double breasted therefore, twice as good as yours"

I think you would be surprised who thinks their jackets are twice as good.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

"growth jets"?

C'mon! You sound like Bob "It's Not A B-Scale, It's A Growth Scale!" Crandall!

I have it on good authority that both airlines have large aircraft on order. Both pilot groups will bid what/where they want to fly.

Sheesh!

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

You been drinking? Seriously. No bump...no flush. It would take expansion then contraction within a category...or a new base, to cause displacements.

Tell me you're familiar with how airline pilots bid for positions. Please.

Every time you post something like that I get a headache from my eyes rolling too far up into my head.

Call your rep. Ask him how it works.

Arbitrations usually go by pay and equipment, so, why would NWA want to arbitrate?

(sigh)

Who told you arbitrations go by pay and equipment? They go by what the arbitrator decides they will go by. The NWA/REP Roberts Award didn't go by pay and equipment. It was done by DOH, with Conditions & Restrictions.

It was Exhibit "A" for how unpredictable arbitration can be.

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI?

That decision would be made by a klatsch of the buttwipes who run the two major hedge funds that are pushing for this deal...and by the Senior Surrender Monkey at Air France, who'll be coughing up the Euros to tender their shares.

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

Something that considers the math of future seniority progression irrespective of possible growth. You don't have to agree with it to understand it.

The perception by the NWA MEC is that there is a significant portion of the DAL seniority list that isn't feeling the same pain that a number of our pilots will. It's that simple.

Me?

I'm cool.

But I don't make the call.

Other guys do.

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

 

[PCL_128]

Who told you arbitrations go by pay and equipment?

Don't you remember, Occam? That's what Dan Ford kept trying to tell everyone to convince them that the PID wasn't really a seniority grab.

 

[FDJ2]

possible[/i] growth. You don't have to agree with it to understand it.

But we do have to agree to it and then ignore our issues.

Do you think that's likely?

I guess somethings never change. Good luck with that approach.

The perception by the NWA MEC is that there is a significant portion of the DAL seniority list that isn't feeling the same pain that a number of our pilots will. It's that simple.

Too bad, the perception at the DAL MEC is that members of the NWALPA are still wanting to quibble and focus on their issues at the exclussion of the DAL pilot issues. Not the recipe for success.

Me?

I'm cool.

But I don't make the call.

Other guys do.

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

I'm not too optimistic if what you've written is consistent with what will be proposed.

Too bad. I know you guys wanted to meet again, but it looks like we're in for the same old song and dance of how a NWALPA pilot similarly situated brings more equity to the merger.

That will sell well with our membership.

 

[DAL737FO]

"growth jets"?



You been drinking? Seriously. No bump...no flush. It would take expansion then contraction within a category...or a new base, to cause displacements.


Occam,

I don't know how bids go at NWA but we have been having AE's (that's a bid) every three months here at Delta. So we give you favorable seniority integration that puts you ahead of a good many Delta guys then what is stopping you from bidding ATL 767 A on the next bid. The stagnation in certain bases could be tremendous as NWA guys decide it's easier to commute to ATL, CVG or LAX then MSP or DET.

 

[Fly4hire]

C'mon! You sound like Bob "It's Not A B-Scale, It's A Growth Scale!" Crandall!

You been drinking? Seriously. No bump...no flush. It would take expansion then contraction within a category...or a new base, to cause displacements.

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

Occam - you get an A for diplomacy, but as someone else said, they are dictating terms, and with a double standard that would make my wife blush.

If R2D2's attitude is typical we will wear Stars of David on our jackets as we go to the special seniority ghetto. Moak's "Mein Kampf" may sell over in ATL, but it's more "Something is Rotten in Denmark" from this side of the pond.

If we merge it will be like hearing the mating call of 6000 RB ninja's for the rest of our careers.

Here's to hoping in fails!

 

[crjdxr]

"growth jets"?

That decision would be made by a klatsch of the buttwipes who run the two major hedge funds that are pushing for this deal...and by the Senior Surrender Monkey at Air France, who'll be coughing up the Euros to tender their shares.

I believe it is Senior Cheese Eating Surrender Monkey.

 

[jke406]

Haven't you been there like a day?

737 Pylt gets banned, and look who shows up...one of his other screen names.

 

[ExAF]

Now I Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExAF
Your post basically says DAL has presented THE offer and NWALPA rejected it. Not really sure where that came from and have no idea if it is a valid statement or not. But that sounds to me like DAL is dictating THE terms and NWA has no input.

No, what I am saying is that DALPA entered with a list designed to be fair and equitable for all pilots, NWALPA chose a different approach. There is no requirement for either side to change its position.

So you are saying that DAL's entry is the ONLY way it's fair & eqitable and it really doesn't matter what NWA thinks. No requirement for either side to change because DAL has declared it fair. Still sounds like dictation to me.

Then you say if NWA doesn't like it then go home.

Sorry if you misunderstood, NWALPA has a choice to make, there is little if any wiggle room, DALPA didn't approach this as a "get the best deal you can get" meeting of merger committees, DALPA approached this as a get the fairest list for all pilots meeting of merger committees.

There is a difference there.

Frankly, if you want to play in the sand box, don't come thinking that a NWA pilot has greater career value than a DAL pilot similarly placed on the respective lists.

As I stated before, it is a matter of perception. Not right or wrong, not greater value or not. The DAL perception IS different than the NWA perception. I really don't think the NWA boys are trying to screw the DAL guys, but I don't think that just because the DAL group says "this is fair" that means it is.


That doesn't sound like a group that is looking for a fair SLI.

Really, have you seen what was proposed? Do you think that you bring more to the table based on your position on your list than a similarly placed DAL pilot?

No I haven't seen it and I don't think you have either unless you recently joined the merger committee. I don't think we bring more, but I don't think our position should be dismissed because DAL says their plan is the only fair way to do this and there is no reason to change. I'm just going on what you posted since I haven't seen any proposal myself. All I've seen is the rumor and well timed/placed news articles which I don't put any stock in.


It sounds more like "Our way or the highway." Not sure if you meant for it to come across that way, but if you did, I now understand why this dog won't hunt.

No it's more like, let's not quibble, lets get it done. Unfortunately you brought a committe to the SLI negotiations with a long history of quibbling and not getting it done, a committe with a long history of turning it over to an arbitrator.

Funny thing about history, it tends to repeat itself. We should all learn from history.

That my friend is the dog that wont hunt.

You are not being courted, so don't play coy and overplay your hand. Take a serious look at what was offered and make your own decision.

As soon as what was offered is released, I will, until then I'm just responding to what you posted. I'm not coy nor playing any hand. I'm not doing the negotiating. In the meantime I'm going to trust that my committee is doing the right thing for the pilots they represent.

You don't like it, walk away. No sweat. We aren't here to sell it to you.

Perhaps the root of the problem was that the entire concept of getting in front of a merger and making pilots relevant from the inception is a product of DALPA, so your guys were a little overwhelmed at first, maybe not as prepared as they should have been and fell back on their habitual pattern of seeking arbitration over negotiations.

It's going to take a different mindset.

Does that mindset have to be "DAL says it is so, so it must be fair?" If that's the case, then it probably won't happen after all.

Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours" threads that have continued to stir the pot. Both sides have a different perspective based on different experiences. If there isn't room for some give and take to accommodate or at least address both perspectives then it is most probably doomed.

It's probably doomed if we can't get beyond that. Do you feel you bring more to the table then your counter part a DAL who is relatively in the same spot on the list? If so, let the quibbling continue.

Asked and answered counselor.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if it is really good for the group as a whole.

We'll see what happens,but it's going to take a radical change of mindsets to make it happen. If it doesn't happen, what a pity, that bickering and posturing squadered a rare opportunity.

Like I said before. I don't think the NWA group should have a higher expectation or position than any pilot on the DAL list. I don't think we bring anything more to the table than DAL. I also don't think we bring anything less. I don't think that just because DAL thinks something is fair means it is. I don't think that NWA should dictate terms either. I think they will have to get together and meet somewhere in the middle. A another wise sage said before, the best agreement will probably be one that has everyone a little bit pissed off. I can live with "a little pissed off." My position is a little unique since the SLI would not impact my position or career much on either list no matter what method would be used. I do hope for some contractual and pay improvements if the merger goes, but I don't want to see any group get screwed in the process. This could be a good thing if a consensus can be reached, but it sounds to me like that will take a mindset change on BOTH sides.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm not too optimistic if what you've written is consistent with what will be proposed.

I'll see your "not too optimistic" and raise you a "good thing you're not at the table."

What will be proposed is not for consumption by the Brain Trust here at FI. Suffice to say both sides will move from their last positions.

Too bad. I know you guys wanted to meet again, but it looks like we're in for the same old song and dance of how a NWALPA pilot similarly situated brings more equity to the merger.

Pure Flame. Is that necessary?

That will sell well with our membership.

As opposed to what they've already seen? :laugh:

This isn't supposed to easy, nor considered "fair" by everyone. In fact, I predict it won't be, if only because no such solution exists.

Visceral nincompoops will moan and scream, then rend their clothing in fits of despair. The rest of us will ensure our Pragmatism bill is paid up, and press on.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I don't know how bids go at NWA but we have been having AE's (that's a bid) every three months here at Delta. So we give you favorable seniority integration that puts you ahead of a good many Delta guys then what is stopping you from bidding ATL 767 A on the next bid. The stagnation in certain bases could be tremendous as NWA guys decide it's easier to commute to ATL, CVG or LAX then MSP or DET.

We have position bids (called Advanced Position Awards - "APA's") every month.

You GIVE us nothing!

Got that?

When the list is integrated, all pilots will be able to bid their seniority, assuming there are no "fences" (called "Conditions & Restrictions").

Some pilots bid $$. Some bid ease-of-commute. Some bid relative seniority to enhance QOL.

If you can predict the bidding habits of NWA (or DAL pilots!), then you should be working for your Crew Planning department, instead of posting gratuitous flamebaiting crap such as "So we give you..."

 

[~~~^~~~]

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

What? I thought that the DAL team was holding a briefing in ATL on Monday.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Something that considers the math of future seniority progression irrespective of possible growth.

Ok, I'll consider that, by the same token our negotiators must consider something that addresses seniority progression in the case of fleet shrinkage and displacements without the NWA pilots hitting the exits at 60. (many want to stick around for their 30% raise if this deal happens)

We know (and I'll cut and past the articles if you insist) that NWA is parking airplanes and we know Delta has jets on firm order. That's what is on record at this point in time.

NWA (and Delta) are both hiring because they got behind the staffing curve during bankruptcy. The shrinking DC-9 fleet that requires more pilots to fly it while Steenland brags about RJ's coming does not make sense. We can re-visit this debate after the summer schedule and I'll get your cup of "I told you so" ready... we'll see if you, or I, have to drink it.

I'm lame at joking around, your diplomacy is again appreciated.

Let me ask, what about a "Fair Plan" like I posted? Let the NWA pilots have their list and Delta have theirs, merge system seniority by relative position for the growth slots. In the mean time, you got your jets and you got your retirements. No DOH windfall to scare the Delta pilots, you preserve your retirements for your fleet advancement; relative seniority for the system list giving pilots the choice of when they want to take the leap.

 

[DAL737FO]

We have position bids (called Advanced Position Awards - "APA's") every month.

You GIVE us nothing!
Really. If you get relative seniority you can go from a reserve 757 Captain to a lineholding 767 Captain. Now if you are a commuter and you have to fly to your job anyway which are you choosing?
Got that?
What should I say here, "Yes Sir" get over youself
When the list is integrated, all pilots will be able to bid their seniority, assuming there are no "fences" (called "Conditions & Restrictions").
Exactly why this thing is going to die. Maybe next time you can tell your merger committee to show up prepared and not fight with each other.
Some pilots bid $$. Some bid ease-of-commute. Some bid relative seniority to enhance QOL.

If you can predict the bidding habits of NWA (or DAL pilots!), then you should be working for your Crew Planning department, instead of posting gratuitous flamebaiting crap such as "So we give you..."

You're right we are not going to give you anything that is why this is going to die. Have fun in the great white north.

 

[General Lee]

I'll see your "not too optimistic" and raise you a "good thing you're not at the table."


Well, with your 15 guys at the table vs our three, I think we would need more people at the table, to counter act your thug mentality and your obvious distrust within your own group. 10 observers? Come on now! Don't say that didn't happen too.


What will be proposed is not for consumption by the Brain Trust here at FI. Suffice to say both sides will move from their last positions.

This is an opinion board, and every one is welcome. Most of us here are can understand that your side wanted what amounted to a one sided agreement with all of the upside on your side. If any agreement is to be made, it will cause your side to shift.



Pure Flame. Is that necessary?

Friendly banter is fun, but slamming for the pure fun of it is not necessary.



As opposed to what they've already seen? :laugh:

This isn't supposed to easy, nor considered "fair" by everyone. In fact, I predict it won't be, if only because no such solution exists.

Visceral nincompoops will moan and scream, then rend their clothing in fits of despair. The rest of us will ensure our Pragmatism bill is paid up, and press on.

If what has been reported here is even close to being true, it shows your green book committee chairman has an agenda, and he is passing out the koolaid to all of you, without you thinking about both give and take. If there was a buyout of your top 1500 guys for the pension, then you would be in the same spot we are. We don't have a pension now. Your proposal has you getting a pay raise and work rule changes, while you keep your frozen plan. You can't get away from the fact that you gave up things (pay and rules) and would regain those with a merger, while our side still not being able to regain our pension. You have to give us something for that shortfall, or it would be one sided.

If it doesn't work out, again, fine. Your committee and one greenbook leader in particular, really botched this one.

Bye Bye--General Lee