Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[Superpilot92]

DC9 displacements for starters. At most carriers a displaced pilot can bid whatever they can hold.

My thinking is coming around on the 9, but any that leave (and which are not replaced) are going to be very painful.

There is NO talk right now of dumping the very full, 68 remaining DC9's. Its only you DAL guys who are saying that. You guys keep telling us NWA guys that we cant use projected 787s or age 60 retirements in our merger discussions but yet you can talk about falsehoods in regards to the dc9's in your talks?? discuss

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot - all airplanes will eventually be retired. The DC-9 and some 747's will be next. Not only does this make sense, Steenland talked a lot about replacing these 9's with RJ's in his last two quarterly conference calls. (the 9's have a shorter life in a stand alone plan than they do under a combined airline IMHO)

FDJ2: Your incredulity is spot on. I meant that as a rhetorical question. At least on the DAL property no rep, or management, is/are going to agree to arbitration because it violates the other conditions the deal is based on.

NWA seems to think that getting three out of four and arbitrating the fourth is workable. If so, I want to know how? Occam seems to be telling it straight on the arbitration, so I'm curious how anyone thinks it even could work.

If I see a pig fly, I'm going to want to know how.

 

[FDJ2]

There is NO talk right now of dumping the very full, 68 remaining DC9's. Its only you DAL guys who are saying that. You guys keep telling us NWA guys that we cant use projected 787s or age 60 retirements in our merger discussions but yet you can talk about falsehoods in regards to the dc9's in your talks?? discuss

Why don't we not talk about either? How about we not quibble? I can assure you that for every argument you bring we can counter and then some. What's the end result?

It doesn't really matter, the offer is out there, it was rejected by NWALPA, time to move on, unless of course there's some second thoughts on how this was handled.

If NWALPA doesn't like what's on the table, that's fine, go your own way and we'll go ours. No hard feelings.

There's no telling what the future may bring 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now, so maybe we'll all be revisiting another merger scenario some day, probably not with the same offer up front or with our concurrence, but we'll just all have to deal with that later.

 

[FDJ2]

Occam seems to be telling it straight on the arbitration, so I'm curious how anyone thinks it even could work.

I think what he's telling you, and what any of your reps would tell you, or if you called the DALPA offices what they would tell you is the same thing. No SLI, no transaction agreement. All elements of the transaction agreement must be in place or their is no transaction and no one is going to arbitrate the SLI in order to complete this transaction.

The only way this will work is to realize that we are in uncharted waters where the old approach of "going out to get the best deal you can", needs to be replaced by a new approach of working together to get the best TA we can get, the most equity we can get and the fairest SLI we can get or all pilots. Posturing and stacking the list isn't going to get it done.

Occam is right that the junior pilots need to be protected, but they need to be protected at DAL also. I'm just wondering if it will continue to be the position at NWALPA that the NWA pilots bring more equity to the merger and therefore deserve preferential seniority and the right to move up relative to their peers at DAL. That is a non starter.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot - all airplanes will eventually be retired. The DC-9 and some 747's will be next. Not only does this make sense, Steenland talked a lot about replacing these 9's with RJ's in his last two quarterly conference calls. (the 9's have a shorter life in a stand alone plan than they do under a combined airline IMHO)

Sure every plane will be retired, even DAL planes. The problem is you guys talk hypothetically all 9's getting parked but when we talk about the 787's or retirements that are coming your guys say, wait that hasn't happened yet and you cant talk hypothetically. which is it?

The projected plan is to keep 68 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft orders, mainline aircraft.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Sure every plane will be retired, even DAL planes. The problem is you guys talk hypothetically all 9's getting parked but when we talk about the 787's or retirements that are coming your guys say, wait that hasn't happened yet and you cant talk hypothetically. which is it?

The projected plan is to keep 68 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft mainline aircraft.

Haven't you been there like a day?

 

[FDJ2]

The projected plan is to keep 69 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft mainline aircraft.

And projected plans are never altered right? Management always sticks to the script, you can bank on it.

Let's quibble some more about what each of us brings, that'll get it done.

The best thing that can happen if there isn't a radical change in approach is for this thing to die. It would be a shame, but obviously we wont have an agreement if guys are bent on quibbling about what may or may not happen in the next 10, 15, 20, pick the number that best suits your interest years.

 

[Superpilot92]

If I see a pig fly, I'm going to want to know how.

On a side note we are both pretty new so we dont have much say anyway Also Someone very wise told me that speculating on forums is nothing more than mental masturbation and i am beginning to believe that more and more! LOL

Either way Good luck to you DAL guys as hopefully in the end we are all in this together, one way or the other.:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Haven't you been there like a day?

Yup i just started today, I am in the first class EVER to start on a Saturday!! Awesome isn't it? Thanks for keeping tabs though I am Flattered!!:blush:

 

[Superpilot92]

And projected plans are never altered right? Management always sticks to the script, you can bank on it.

Let's quibble some more about what each of us brings, that'll get it done.

The best thing that can happen if there isn't a radical change in approach is for this thing to die. It would be a shame, but obviously we wont have an agreement if guys are bent on quibbling about what may or may not happen in the next 10, 15, 20, pick the number that best suits your interest years.

hey i never said plans don't change. All i said is hypothetical statements from dal guys are just as pointless as hypothetical statements by nwa guys, am i right?

 

[ExAF]

Here Goes

It doesn't really matter, the offer is out there, it was rejected by NWALPA, time to move on, unless of course there's some second thoughts on how this was handled.

If NWALPA doesn't like what's on the table, that's fine, go your own way and we'll go ours. No hard feelings.

I can't believe I'm actually going to respond to one of these rumor mill threads, but against my better judgment, here goes. Your post basically says DAL has presented THE offer and NWALPA rejected it. Not really sure where that came from and have no idea if it is a valid statement or not. But that sounds to me like DAL is dictating THE terms and NWA has no input. Then you say if NWA doesn't like it then go home. That doesn't sound like a group that is looking for a fair SLI. It sounds more like "Our way or the highway." Not sure if you meant for it to come across that way, but if you did, I now understand why this dog won't hunt. Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours" threads that have continued to stir the pot. Both sides have a different perspective based on different experiences. If there isn't room for some give and take to accommodate or at least address both perspectives then it is most probably doomed. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if it is really good for the group as a whole.

 

[FDJ2]

hey i never said plans don't change. All i said is hypothetical statements from dal guys are just as pointless as hypothetical statements by nwa guys, am i right?

Yes, you are right. We are where we are are.

Good luck to you.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

deleted.

Wussy, as usual. Only time you stand behind your cheap shots is when they're directed at a cancer patient.....

 

[123]

Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours"...

Don't forget the "Our jackets are double breasted therefore, twice as good as yours"

 

[FDJ2]

Your post basically says DAL has presented THE offer and NWALPA rejected it. Not really sure where that came from and have no idea if it is a valid statement or not. But that sounds to me like DAL is dictating THE terms and NWA has no input.

No, what I am saying is that DALPA entered with a list designed to be fair and equitable for all pilots, NWALPA chose a different approach. There is no requirement for either side to change its position.

Then you say if NWA doesn't like it then go home.

Sorry if you misunderstood, NWALPA has a choice to make, there is little if any wiggle room, DALPA didn't approach this as a "get the best deal you can get" meeting of merger committees, DALPA approached this as a get the fairest list for all pilots meeting of merger committees.

There is a difference there.

Frankly, if you want to play in the sand box, don't come thinking that a NWA pilot has greater career value than a DAL pilot similarly placed on the respective lists.


That doesn't sound like a group that is looking for a fair SLI.

Really, have you seen what was proposed? Do you think that you bring more to the table based on your position on your list than a similarly placed DAL pilot?


It sounds more like "Our way or the highway." Not sure if you meant for it to come across that way, but if you did, I now understand why this dog won't hunt.

No it's more like, let's not quibble, lets get it done. Unfortunately you brought a committe to the SLI negotiations with a long history of quibbling and not getting it done, a committe with a long history of turning it over to an arbitrator.

That my friend is the dog that wont hunt.

You are not being courted, so don't play coy and overplay your hand. Take a serious look at what was offered and make your own decision.

You don't like it, walk away. No sweat. We aren't here to sell it to you.

Perhaps the root of the problem was that the entire concept of getting in front of a merger and making pilots relevant from the inception is a product of DALPA, so your guys were a little overwhelmed at first, maybe not as prepared as they should have been and fell back on their habitual pattern of seeking arbitration over negotiations.

It's going to take a different mindset.

Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours" threads that have continued to stir the pot. Both sides have a different perspective based on different experiences. If there isn't room for some give and take to accommodate or at least address both perspectives then it is most probably doomed.

It's probably doomed if we can't get beyond that. Do you feel you bring more to the table then your counter part a DAL who is relatively in the same spot on the list? If so, let the quibbling continue.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if it is really good for the group as a whole.

We'll see what happens,but it's going to take a radical change of mindsets to make it happen. If it doesn't happen, what a pity, that bickering and posturing squadered a rare opportunity.