Delta New Hire Class

[doylehargraves]

Does anyone know when the first layoff will be??

 

[General Lee]

General,

It's not like surfing where you need to catch "the wave" before the other guy. (or 1200)

You have to look at firm orders and options going forward. And how much the airline is likely to grow. I don't know how the growth compares between CAL and DAL. But that is what I would focus on. Not the 1200.

Also, age 65 or not there are a ton of old dudes at CAL and very few at DAL. There will be more retirements at CAL.

Those who have been hired before you means nothing for your upgrade to widebody or Captain, by itself.

I'll say it again...Those who have been hired before you means nothing by itself.

Unless....it makes you feel like less of a man to be hired after someone else or like a rock star to be at the beginning....then I guess it does.

At DAL there are hundreds of mil leave dudes that will come in on top of you at some point before Captain. Not so at CAL.

Am I right in assuming you will beat up this post because I don't declare DAL the only true path to righteousness? Go ahead, I'm ready.

Regards,

FBJ

Well, you fail to state that CAL has the worst bases on the planet. I never thought there could be three armpits, but EWR, CLE, and IAH hit the mark. You fail to mention that you will be getting rid of some airplanes (737-300s and 735s), which will only be replaced by those 30 new 737s each year. Your pay is horrible the first 3 years, and a new contract will take awhile. Our workrules are great (never gave any of that up), and our pay is good---second year 738 is $75 an hour, vs 4th year for you. What is this about no company paid insurance for the first 6 months? That is ridiculous. And being in the back of a wave vs front of a hiring wave is important. If there is a downturn, then the bottom may go away, and being behind a large wave makes you the bottom. You also failed to mention what could happen is consolidation does occur. If there is another huge downturn, then NWA and DL will likely merge. The only other one that makes sense to combat the huge Asia/Europe/South American presence we would have is UAL/CAL. That would NOT be good for any of your junior pilots, not to mention the debt United still has.

You are right, we don't have a lot of retirements coming up, most of them are gone. But, any new airplanes will be growth, because we already got rid of our older planes, and you still have 735s and 733s that will go. We have orders for 737-700s, 777s, and we are getting 13-15 757ERs from AA starting in July at 2 per month. We can't announce other orders yet because we have one more week of BK (take a look at today's USAToday and see how we are doing), and after that we will anounce more (think 787s via a lessor). We are actively looking at 100 seaters also (our MD88 at 146 seats is the smallest plane we have currently)---and if we do get some expect junior pilots upgrading to Captain soon (we did that at Delta Express in 1996--we had 1 year Captains on the 737-200 because the rates were a little less than 767FO, and since our furloughed pilots from 1991-1993 were coming back most 767FOs were in their 8th or higher year and most didn't want to take a pay cut---but it was good for the junior pilots).

So, can you please debate me on: bases, pay in the first 3 years, planes you will be getting rid of, and why it wouldn't be good to be at the beginning of a hiring spree? We both will be getting new planes and new contracts are far away.

I still think it is good this guy Goggles has your airline in the bag and a chance to interview at mine. Good for him.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I hear new hires are getting NYC and ATL on the Mad Dog...how bout seniority in SLC? Junior jet is still MD88 in SLC? Any new hires already moving in to SLC? So...SLC??? Good article about Delta on Yahoo finance today...

PUKE uke:

You will likely get assigned the MD88 as a newhire, although some are getting the 737-800 in NYC (JFK, LGA, or EWR trips). That doesn't mean you will be there long. We are having bids every couple months and some newhires were awarded NYC 767ER INTL and ATL 757/767 DOM while in training. They still had to finish the MD88 training, but they didn't have to be on it long. Atleast they don't have to do the 727FE anymore. That one was not fun.

SLC MD88/MD90 (the only guys who fly the MD90) is not too hard to get. You could probably get it on the subsequent bid, and it would not be a new seat hold because you are allowed to bid from base to base on the same equipment without a new 2 year hold. The only change would be to do a 1 day 1 sim training event on the MD90. SLC 737-800 and SLC 757/767 are probably a couple years out for a newhire. LAX 757/767 is probably a year out. CVG is very senior and getting smaller. ATL and NYC are the most junior.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RJAA]

While I cannot comment on pilot bases and pay, I do agree that no health insurance for the first six months is a complete BS and it is turning a lot of qualified inviduals away. However, Continental's future plan is still 5-6% growth. But in reality, that can be easily adjusted based on demand and what is going on in the industry in the near future. It is true that a fraction of B733s are nearing retirement but at the same time some of the newer B733s and B735s are getting winglets. The B735s are newer than some of Delta's MD88s. Some will continue to stay while it introduces more cost effective and efficient B739ERs and B738s. They well get the B787s by early 2009 but again B762s may stay. How much of them will be growth? It all depends but at least Continental is more flexible in fleet planning compared to others for the ups and downs in the near future. The current order could be for growth or replacement. If it makes sense to keep the "not so efficient" fleet to provide lift I'd bet they will for a while. It all sounds like a stable business plan to me. It all sounds dandy to me to go on a shopping spree for airplanes also but who know what can happen in the near future.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Thanks for the input, guys. As I said, domiciles are a non-issue for me because I live near NYC.

As far as growth goes, Kellner stated in the Q1 report that he would like to see a sustained 5-6% growth over a 10 year period (which 10 year period is unknown -- hopefully the next one.) http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/content/company/investor/docs/continental_10q_2007_q1.pdf

Delta's plans post-bankruptcy plans - especially fleet plans -- will be very interesting. In the meantime, everything is just speculation.

Consolidation worries me, but I think moving up the list as quickly as possible before consolidation happens would be ... well, a good thing.

First year pay/insurance at CAL would be rough, very very rough. But we're not in this career for one year, right? Where will I be better off at year 5, 10? That may be too long-term to plan for in this career. Plus, remember what economists say about where we all wind up in the long run.

I can't read a balance sheet very well. DL says their long term debt will be in the neighborhood of $7B. What is CAL's long-term debt (looks like $4.9B) http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=CAL ?

 

[Pat Fabin]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. CAL sucks.

 

[anewunion]

If there is even a question, goto CAL.

 

[Howard Hughes]

Dont know if this will influence your decision (well technically you need the offer from Delta to have a decision) but the word from the Delta training dept is that classes are going from 25 a month to 40 a month starting in June.

One other thought, Delta had over 10,000 pilots prior to 911 but currently have about 6900. If they plan to build the international ops as aggressively as they have been and there is any plans to grow back to 10K plus (this is unknown) there will be alot more movement at Delta than Cal even with Cals many retirements. Food for thought.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, you fail to state that CAL has the worst bases on the planet. I never thought there could be three armpits, but EWR, CLE, and IAH hit the mark.

Sorry, General, but I've gotta defend our "honor" on this one. NWA has the worst bases, by far. Snow-town, Mo-town, and No-town. CAL can't even compete on this contest.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I'm not going to debate domiciles or pay.


Looks like CAL wants to grow 5-6% a year. At what percentage will Delta grow? If its more than 5-6% they win in the "wave" department. If its less, regardless of how many have been hired in the last 2 years, CAL will still have a bigger wave going forward.

 

[Pilotbob3]

I thought Delta was going to buy JetBlue??!!!!!

seriously, ive got a delta buddy who thinks i should apply there. im close to airbus captain at jetblue and also probably will be recalled to AA in a year and a half. 6 yr pay or 11 year pay if LOS if given at AA.....go to delta? im thinking no.

 

[General Lee]

I'm not going to debate domiciles or pay.


Looks like CAL wants to grow 5-6% a year. At what percentage will Delta grow? If its more than 5-6% they win in the "wave" department. If its less, regardless of how many have been hired in the last 2 years, CAL will still have a bigger wave going forward.

You can't debate pay and domiciles, CAL would lose. It would take 4 years at CAL to get the same at Delta on the 738, and that would not be hard to get on the second year at DL, or even the 757 which pays even more. CAL's insurance policy, which has the new pilot paying for it for 6 whole months, is ridiculous. Those should be important to any newhire.

As far as growth, we know we are going to grow (getting many new planes), and at the same time we have to wait for a week or so until we are out of BK to hear more about future orders, including more 777LRs and 787s, 100 seaters possibly, and more 737s. I would think that would equal 5-6% growth. (just a guess)

Again, regardless, this guy Goggles is doing it right, and hopefully will pass the DL interview and have a choice, a good choice. They are both good companies with growth opportunities.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I thought Delta was going to buy JetBlue??!!!!!

seriously, ive got a delta buddy who thinks i should apply there. im close to airbus captain at jetblue and also probably will be recalled to AA in a year and a half. 6 yr pay or 11 year pay if LOS if given at AA.....go to delta? im thinking no.

I have heard rumors about that, but nothing concrete. I know they are looking at doing something with the JFK terminal, and it may cost less to try to buy Jetblue than build a new terminal. Who knows? If you are going to JB captain school and think you will stay there forever, then don't apply at DL. But, you could be back at JFK sooner than later, and maybe flying the 767 overseas too, but you may not want that. To each his own.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I thought Delta was going to buy JetBlue??!!!!!

seriously, ive got a delta buddy who thinks i should apply there. im close to airbus captain at jetblue and also probably will be recalled to AA in a year and a half. 6 yr pay or 11 year pay if LOS if given at AA.....go to delta? im thinking no.

This is something I've seen time and time again. When someone is at a hiring and growing airline they think everyone should apply there.

Most of the time it's not a wholly unselfish attempt to "help" you. There is a theory that most "giving" is a selfish attempt to wipe away guilt and feel better. But I won't get into that.

The pilots at successful airlines feel like they are smarter (or luckier) than most other pilots and want to "help" others come around to the same way of thinking. It validates their superior reasoning skills or station in life. Often, when you tell them no thanks, they get hurt or even hostile. This last part outs them as being more selfish than helpful. If they really cared about your future they wouldn't take it out on you if choose a different path.

But what do I know. I'm just a glass is half empty, paranoid kind of guy.

 

[jbDC9]

Well, you fail to state that CAL has the worst bases on the planet. I never thought there could be three armpits, but EWR, CLE, and IAH hit the mark.

So DL bases in NYC, CVG and ATL are any better?? Please, get over yourself. Your bases in LAX and SLC might be nice, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay the big bucks to live there... PCL_128 had it right, seems like NWA takes the honor for the worst bases.

 

[General Lee]

So DL bases in NYC, CVG and ATL are any better?? Please, get over yourself. Your bases in LAX and SLC might be nice, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay the big bucks to live there... PCL_128 had it right, seems like NWA takes the honor for the worst bases.

Huh? You are an idiot. Delta's bases are ten times better than CAL's armpit bases, and you know it. ATL is far better than IAH, and CVG is not cold as CLE by a mile. And, if you want to be super lonely, move to Guam. Delta's LA and SLC bases not only give options to live at those places, but open up commuting possibilities on the West Coast, which is a heck of a lot better than CAL. You get over yourself and wake up. And yes, NWA also has some crummy bases. CAL and NWA win for worst bases. Are you happy now?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Truckdriver]

So DL bases in NYC, CVG and ATL are any better?? Please, get over yourself. Your bases in LAX and SLC might be nice, but I'm not sure I'd want to pay the big bucks to live there... PCL_128 had it right, seems like NWA takes the honor for the worst bases.

Big bucks to live in SLC?? SLC is a very affordable place to live unless you want to live in Park City. NWA takes the prize of crappy bases while CAL is a very close runner up. DAL has a base on each coast, one in the south, one in the upper mid-west, and one in the inner-mountain west. At least with Delta you can live anywhere in the country and have a commute under two hours. Not so with CAL or NWA.

 

[zonker]

Huh? You are an idiot. Delta's bases are ten times better than CAL's armpit bases, and you know it. ATL is far better than IAH, and CVG is not cold as CLE by a mile. And, if you want to be super lonely, move to Guam. Delta's LA and SLC bases not only give options to live at those places, but open up commuting possibilities on the West Coast, which is a heck of a lot better than CAL. You get over yourself and wake up. And yes, NWA also has some crummy bases. CAL and NWA win for worst bases. Are you happy now?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Who gives a fat rat's ***k?

 

[Furloughed80]

IMHO I would go with CAL as well.....

30 737s 2008
30 737s 2009
25 787s starting 2009
20 additional options for 787s
Most junior CA award seniority # 3777; 2005 hire approx. seniority # 3800
Assuming age 60, 50% of list retires in the next 10 years

.....but to each his own.

 

[Truckdriver]

IMHO I would go with CAL as well.....

30 737s 2008
30 737s 2009
25 787s starting 2009
20 additional options for 787s
Most junior CA award seniority # 3777; 2005 hire approx. seniority # 3800
Assuming age 60, 50% of list retires in the next 10 years

.....but to each his own.

OK, I have a question for the CAL guys. I know that EWR 737 CA is going very junior, but what is the most junior CA that actually holds a line? I'll bet there are quite a few fellas holding out for a line. I'm not sure I would want to upgrade and sit reserve for 6 years in EWR doing EWR-FL turns. I think the most junior MD-88 CA at DAL is a 98 hire. Give DAL two more years, and the guys they are just now hiring will hold MD-88 CA in JFK. Making your choice based on upgrade times probably isn't a good strategy. I will say the retirements and 737 #'s the next couple of years at CAL are very impressive even if you don't want to go to CAL. I would go to DAL because of the better pay, insurance, contract, and bases. You get nearly twice the pay first year and insurance at DAL. I haven't run the numbers, but I'd also bet your career earnings would be better at DAL than at CAL. Both good airlines, and if your biggest problem in life is deciding which of these two places to go work for, you need more problems. Good luck on the decision.