Delta E170 in LGA

[737 Pylt]

Because of ALPA's/your MEC's short sighted bargain objectives, (don't merge with the wholly owned, don't permit the regionals to bargain their own scope, the "permitted aircraft" part of Section 1) the flying is not only being driven off the property but to non-ALPA pilot groups off the property.

Much as you like to blame ALPA, if this POS passes, we shouldn't look no further than the mirror!

The resultant dilution of contracting the cheapest carrier has condemned us all to the race to the bottom. ALPA's Bilateral Scope Impact Committee hasn't met is almost three years and the newest "take your eye off the ball" smokescreen committee is the Fee-for-Departure Task Force which will also produce nothing.

Again, easy to blame ALPA, when in all actuality, ALPA is made up of members such as you and I....If you want to point the finger, look in the mirror!

Of course, your MEC will blame their reckless union policy on management but management will always be management. Our problem is the union.

No argument there. I will be really interested in how this vote goes. Everyone I talk to says this POS won't pass, yet they always seem to.

We'll see!
737

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Uhhh... that would be a contradiction, dude. The 170 is most definitely NOT an RJ, and should be a mainline jet. (Air Canada, i.e.)

If anybody gets worked up about it being called an RJ, just tell them you were referring to the size of the paycheck that comes along with it, not the aircraft itself.

 

[buckdanny]

I find it interesting how everybody is ripping apart the E-170 saying that it shouldn't be called an RJ, while a post about Delta farming out CRJ-900 to Mesa has gone unnoticed...

Buck

 

[FR8mastr]

Air Canada doesn't fly the 170. It's a 175 which has more than 70 seats.

So does the 170, up to 78 to be exact.

 

[8HourPilot]

Yeah dude, I really care what you call me. The plane is too big to be a regional, yet here we are.

But they're real pilots because their plane has engines under the wing, LOL.

Yeah, and when ATC tells you to follow, or give way to a E170, make sure you respond "okay, we'll follow the RJ". They love it.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Well it all started when the "REAL pilots" didn't want to fly anything smaller than a Boeing or Douglas product. What's funny is the only Embraer product that is not an EMB-XXX is the E-Jet line (ERJ-XXX). Our socialist friends from the Great White North coined the term RJ, and now, like Kleenex, it's our scarlet letter(s). While I do find it funny that now that I fly something that looks like what "they" fly, the are very curious...until the find out it has 70-72 seats. It's fun when guys from mainline jumpseat and we start talking (I like to be nice and have fun at work...). The shock on their face when the thrust levers move like in their airplane, the MCDU's work like their plane. Even more interesting is when they find out I have more days off than they do and make about the same money.

What do I know? I work at a bottom feeder that pays me more than mainline seems to... I could fight for that good job at UAL, get 4 hard days off on reserve a month plus 6 floating days, take a pay cut for 7 years and maybe when I'm 57 upgrade, once they start hiring; OR I could stay here keep my 15-16 days a month off, fight for better work rules on our next contract cycle (begins April '07) and make the pay higher. As it stands now, I make more than a "MAINLINE" 100 seat pilot scale top out on my 70 seat scale.

The world is changing. It's not even close to settling down. Embrace it, make it worthwhile or bitch and be part of the problem.

Your choice...

 

[wntsouthwest]

Keep Anything Over 70 Seats On A Main=line Certificate... Stop The Madness Now... I Want A Future

I couldn't agree more, nothing over 50 seats belongs at any regional carrier. I wish all you little rich bastards could see that s@!# !!

 

[jetfo]

Keep Anything Over 70 Seats On A Main=line Certificate... Stop The Madness Now... I Want A Future

Better yet aim for brand scope and keep all flying under one certificate!

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Better yet aim for brand scope and keep all flying under one certificate!

AMEN! Lets bring back furloughed pilots with thousand of hours back to flying mainline passengers in mainline financed aircraft's under mainline brands and send all this 1000 hour pilots back to "flight instruct" where they belong.

 

[aa73]

Look guys.... "SIZE" has nothing to do with it - it is simply the routes that the aircraft flies which should classify it as "regional" or mainline".

If an ERJ-145 is flying IAH-BOI (Coex), how regional is that? How about LGA-XNA (Eagle). Folks, this is not regional flying, it is mainline medium segment routes.

AA use to fly the BAC-111 in the 60s, which I believe seated around 65 pax... TWA used to fly the DC-9-10, which was around 75-80... why weren't those regional jets? Simple, because those aircraft were retired and replaced with small jets that pilot groups gave away in the mid 90s and in doing so created a new standard of pilot and flying that is gradually growing and taking over the mainline stuff. Eventually "regional pilots" will become "mainline pilots" while being paid a "C-scale" (already happening.)

Granted, the E-170 looks like pretty big and nothing like an RJ - however, when mainline pilot groups cave under the threat of BK and give up scope to the regional feeders, it will become a "regional jet" instead of a "mainline jet." Maybe USAir and DL will become the first ones to break this trend in securing the E-190 flying - good on ya! - albeit for subpar wages. IMHO, they did it correctly - get the aircraft onto the property first, negotiate the pay upwards later. This way we will reverse the trend and keep the bigger jets at mainline -as it should be.

73

 

[Jester1092]

Look guys.... "SIZE" has nothing to do with it - it is simply the routes that the aircraft flies which should classify it as "regional" or mainline".

If an ERJ-145 is flying IAH-BOI (Coex), how regional is that? How about LGA-XNA (Eagle). Folks, this is not regional flying, it is mainline medium segment routes.

AA use to fly the BAC-111 in the 60s, which I believe seated around 65 pax... TWA used to fly the DC-9-10, which was around 75-80... why weren't those regional jets? Simple, because those aircraft were retired and replaced with small jets that pilot groups gave away in the mid 90s and in doing so created a new standard of pilot and flying that is gradually growing and taking over the mainline stuff. Eventually "regional pilots" will become "mainline pilots" while being paid a "C-scale" (already happening.)

Granted, the E-170 looks like pretty big and nothing like an RJ - however, when mainline pilot groups cave under the threat of BK and give up scope to the regional feeders, it will become a "regional jet" instead of a "mainline jet." Maybe USAir and DL will become the first ones to break this trend in securing the E-190 flying - good on ya! - albeit for subpar wages. IMHO, they did it correctly - get the aircraft onto the property first, negotiate the pay upwards later. This way we will reverse the trend and keep the bigger jets at mainline -as it should be.

73

AA73.. All great points. I agree with you 100%.

 

[RP170]

So does the 170, up to 78 to be exact.

The last one I flew had 70 seats in it. I'm not happy that these size aircraft have ended up at regionals either. Regional airlines should be flying props only. All of the RJ's should have ended up at mainline back in the 90's. Don't blame the regional guys when it could have been prevented by the mainline guys years ago.

 

[Palerider957]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This will continue until all pilots really "unite" and I'm not talking the over politicized pathetic union that ALPA has become. But a coordinated effort of all pilots working under a particular brand to STOP the outsourcing or your kids and my kids won't have but a part time aviation gig meanwhile they decide what they want to do that is really productive.
This has become a joke! How was it possible that ANY flying was outsourced, little alone carrying over 40% of Delta's domestic passengers are flown by a vendor?
NWA is going the same way. This has to stop, or we will find ourselves Furloughed every two years and starting again at some certificate on first year seniority pay. No? look at what is happening with this Compass deal, how long before NWA sells another PCL style IPO and then another vendor?

 

[cozmokramer]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

It's finally nice to hear an intelligent post for once. Everything that is happening right now is not direct result of one pilot group flying a plane for less than another. Industries change all the time, always have, always will. Look at what happened to the U.S steel industry and what is currently happening to the auto industry.

 

[list2002]

Saw one in BHM, was there the next morning too.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Dont listen to him, he's been narked 1 too many times. They keep Fu#$ing up his O2 mixture eveytime he dives.

Next time your in the keys, let me know, lets go diving! Just dont turn off my O2 b/c I fly the grand E-170 :beer:

You don't get narked on Nitrox. dude!

Next time you're in the Keys call me... I'll already be there!

 

[aa73]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

You are correct in how you describe it, but you must also mention the fact that regional pilots are basically mainline pilots operating under "C-scale" pay. So as much as you are part of the DL system, it is the pay scales that will always differentiate between "regional" and "mainline." Our mission as AIRLINE PILOTS is to keep trying to uphold the bar at both. This way there will always be a reason to keep moving upwards and onwards.

We want to keep it the way it's always been. In the 70s and 80s, there were "commuters" (don't ban me!) and "majors." The commuters were always a stepping stone to the majors for the reasons we discussed above. If we start caving and start narrowing the gap between "regional" and "mainline", airline managements will use that to their advantage and start outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder. Is that what you all want? This is why it's very important to keep those mainline jobs worth striving for.

73

 

[Axel]

...If we start caving and start narrowing the gap between "regional" and "mainline", airline managements will use that to their advantage and start outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder...

73

This should be written in the past tense:

"...We have caved and narrowed the gap between 'regional' and "mainline", airline managements have used that to their advantage and have started outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder..."

 

[aa73]

This should be written in the past tense:

"...We have caved and narrowed the gap between 'regional' and "mainline", airline managements have used that to their advantage and have started outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder..."

Unfortunately, in many instances that is the case - but there are still a few out there that can hold the bar. AA and SWA, for a couple. As much as our pay cuts sucked, sad to say that we are leading the pack for legacy contracts, and everyone would want a SWA-style contract hands-down.