Delta E170 in LGA

[Jester1092]

Look guys.... "SIZE" has nothing to do with it - it is simply the routes that the aircraft flies which should classify it as "regional" or mainline".

If an ERJ-145 is flying IAH-BOI (Coex), how regional is that? How about LGA-XNA (Eagle). Folks, this is not regional flying, it is mainline medium segment routes.

AA use to fly the BAC-111 in the 60s, which I believe seated around 65 pax... TWA used to fly the DC-9-10, which was around 75-80... why weren't those regional jets? Simple, because those aircraft were retired and replaced with small jets that pilot groups gave away in the mid 90s and in doing so created a new standard of pilot and flying that is gradually growing and taking over the mainline stuff. Eventually "regional pilots" will become "mainline pilots" while being paid a "C-scale" (already happening.)

Granted, the E-170 looks like pretty big and nothing like an RJ - however, when mainline pilot groups cave under the threat of BK and give up scope to the regional feeders, it will become a "regional jet" instead of a "mainline jet." Maybe USAir and DL will become the first ones to break this trend in securing the E-190 flying - good on ya! - albeit for subpar wages. IMHO, they did it correctly - get the aircraft onto the property first, negotiate the pay upwards later. This way we will reverse the trend and keep the bigger jets at mainline -as it should be.

73

AA73.. All great points. I agree with you 100%.

 

[RP170]

So does the 170, up to 78 to be exact.

The last one I flew had 70 seats in it. I'm not happy that these size aircraft have ended up at regionals either. Regional airlines should be flying props only. All of the RJ's should have ended up at mainline back in the 90's. Don't blame the regional guys when it could have been prevented by the mainline guys years ago.

 

[Palerider957]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

 

[Dumb Pilot]

This will continue until all pilots really "unite" and I'm not talking the over politicized pathetic union that ALPA has become. But a coordinated effort of all pilots working under a particular brand to STOP the outsourcing or your kids and my kids won't have but a part time aviation gig meanwhile they decide what they want to do that is really productive.
This has become a joke! How was it possible that ANY flying was outsourced, little alone carrying over 40% of Delta's domestic passengers are flown by a vendor?
NWA is going the same way. This has to stop, or we will find ourselves Furloughed every two years and starting again at some certificate on first year seniority pay. No? look at what is happening with this Compass deal, how long before NWA sells another PCL style IPO and then another vendor?

 

[cozmokramer]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

It's finally nice to hear an intelligent post for once. Everything that is happening right now is not direct result of one pilot group flying a plane for less than another. Industries change all the time, always have, always will. Look at what happened to the U.S steel industry and what is currently happening to the auto industry.

 

[list2002]

Saw one in BHM, was there the next morning too.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Dont listen to him, he's been narked 1 too many times. They keep Fu#$ing up his O2 mixture eveytime he dives.

Next time your in the keys, let me know, lets go diving! Just dont turn off my O2 b/c I fly the grand E-170 :beer:

You don't get narked on Nitrox. dude!

Next time you're in the Keys call me... I'll already be there!

 

[aa73]

You are all missing the point.

RJ, mainline, big plane, small plane, pilot group vs. pilot group---this is all a bunch of babbling bull$hit.

There has been a paradigm shift in airlines, in case you haven't noticed. The old terminology simply doesn't apply anymore. What is a "regional pilot" when these pilots are flying the same routes as "main line pilots." Main line used to imply fat pay checks, good work rules, and easy retirement--obviously that's all gone.

"Regionals" fly coast to coast, and international regularly. We used to have a pairing at ASA that went coast-to-coast four times in four days. Now ASA flies to Canada, Mexico, Turcs Caicos, Bahammas, and I believe Jamaica--but people still call it a "regional"???

Mainline has diminished, contract carriers have exploded with growth, and there are no signs of this stopping. What does this mean?

Fundamentally, if your are ASA, SKYW, Comair, CHQ, and anyone else hauling "Delta" ticketed passengers--THEN YOU ARE DELTA AIRLINES. You may not be on the seniority list, and you might not have the gold buttons, but your are as much a part of "Delta" as a Delta pilot---simply put, this is the new shape of airlnes, more image than substance. How many pairings domestically (and more and more internationally) never involve "main line" aircraft, but still haul "Delta" ticketed passengers to their destinations?

I think if GG had his way, ALL of the domestic flying would be done by contract carriers, and only a small portion of international flying would be done by the "real" Delta. The name is kept, but the meaning is lost....Hell, AirWisc, and CHQ have huge ownership stakes at USAir---so who is the mainline? Who feeds who? Eventually "main line carriers" will fade away like a chesire cat. It's like watching the battle of UAW vs Adelphi...this reminds me of a fish out of water, flopping around and gasping for air. The result is inevitable.

If you restrict and confine your thinking with old and irrelevant terms, you will miss what's really going on. This is not simply historic, it's evolutionary.

For those of you saying "no more than 50 seats at your regional", guess what, your regional IS mainline (whatever your carrier is) this is a trend that will inevtiably continue IMHO.

Fire away.............

You are correct in how you describe it, but you must also mention the fact that regional pilots are basically mainline pilots operating under "C-scale" pay. So as much as you are part of the DL system, it is the pay scales that will always differentiate between "regional" and "mainline." Our mission as AIRLINE PILOTS is to keep trying to uphold the bar at both. This way there will always be a reason to keep moving upwards and onwards.

We want to keep it the way it's always been. In the 70s and 80s, there were "commuters" (don't ban me!) and "majors." The commuters were always a stepping stone to the majors for the reasons we discussed above. If we start caving and start narrowing the gap between "regional" and "mainline", airline managements will use that to their advantage and start outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder. Is that what you all want? This is why it's very important to keep those mainline jobs worth striving for.

73

 

[Axel]

...If we start caving and start narrowing the gap between "regional" and "mainline", airline managements will use that to their advantage and start outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder...

73

This should be written in the past tense:

"...We have caved and narrowed the gap between 'regional' and "mainline", airline managements have used that to their advantage and have started outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder..."

 

[aa73]

This should be written in the past tense:

"...We have caved and narrowed the gap between 'regional' and "mainline", airline managements have used that to their advantage and have started outsourcing everything domestic to the lowest bidder..."

Unfortunately, in many instances that is the case - but there are still a few out there that can hold the bar. AA and SWA, for a couple. As much as our pay cuts sucked, sad to say that we are leading the pack for legacy contracts, and everyone would want a SWA-style contract hands-down.

 

[tindriver72]

I couldn't agree more, nothing over 50 seats belongs at any regional carrier. I wish all you little rich bastards could see that s@!# !!

Should we ask the guys at american if they want to fly the ATR 72????

 

[8HourPilot]

If it were paid as if it were at American Mainline......I'd fly it all day long. It's all about the $$$ not the airplane. Put the big stuff at mainline.

 

[jetfo]

If it were paid as if it were at American Mainline......I'd fly it all day long. It's all about the $$$ not the airplane. Put the big stuff at mainline.

Put all flying under one certificate and forget about the regionals!

 

[aa73]

Put all flying under one certificate and forget about the regionals!

That is the only solution, IMHO...

 

[list2002]

Maybe the regionals should agree to horrible contracts and pay rate, then there will always be the distinction between regionals and majors. By rallying for better wages and QOL at the regionals you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[B727FA]

The last one I flew had 70 seats in it. I'm not happy that these size aircraft have ended up at regionals either. Regional airlines should be flying props only. All of the RJ's should have ended up at mainline back in the 90's. Don't blame the regional guys when it could have been prevented by the mainline guys years ago.

The thing is, the Mainline drivers were "too good" to fly the RJ. Funny, how when they got furloughed, and hungry enough, they cried for pref-hiring at RJ airlines! Here is my question: if pilots were lowering the bar by flying the RJ what do you do with the guys who accepted RJ jobs when their Mad Dog job went away? Weren't they expanding the problem by "allowing" the RJ routes to expand and thus make their OWN recall less likely?

 

[Spicepilots]

A large part of the situation has to do with the after-effects of deregulation. It is no coincidence that Legacy carriers like United and Delta looked at their options when they entered Chapter 11 and decided that the way out of their quagmire was to focus on international routes. Simply put, there is too much competition to make money domestically. Who is responsible for this? The LCCs? If I can fly to Vegas from the Denver area on Southwest or Allegiant for 60 bucks each way, am I likely as a consumer to pay 250+ to go United? Not really... if I sit in coach on United, the level of service is roughly equal, thanks to cost-cutting measures (didn't NWA find they could save $11 million a year by eliminating those tiny little bags of pretzels?) So unless I want to sit first class (and pay even more) for the service, I am going to go the cheapest way possible. The thing is, you can't BLAME the LCC's. Sure, if you're selling lemonade on your street corner for 50 cents a cup, and you're making money, and I decide I want to get in on that action and open up a competing stand across the street and sell for 35 cents, you're going to be p***ed, but I have every right to do so, right? A free market economy has always been based on the concept that prices will be determined by supply and demand. If there is more supply of an equal product, prices will naturally come down. The only way to sell successfully at a higher price is to have a superior and thus unequal product, or a monopoly on the market. As we have seen from the elimination of creature comforts and "perks" like meals in coach, nobody is offering a truly superior product. Maybe the problem is that the average-joe consumer never felt like those perks were really worth paying extra for. Hence why most money is made on the business traveller, who spends half his life in a shiny cramped metal pressurized tube, and IS willing to pay to be that much less inconvenienced. As far as market monopolies go, it still exists at the "regional" level, but enough people are willing to drive to a major airport to avoid taking the "puddle jumper" that it isn't of much help to have a lock on the market at small outstations, either. But I digress...


So to continue to operate domestically, and feed their international routes, the Legacies have turned even more than before to an ALREADY EXISTING system. It is cheaper for them to pay a regional airline cost plus 5 or 10 or whatever percent to fly an RJ of some type even when the seat capacity is close. Regionals have always been around, yes as a stepping stone, and yes, paying "subpar" wages in comparison to mainline wages. So the majors are taking advantage of the market forces and utilizing the multitude of regional airlines, who are for the most part now independantly owned and are all bidding against each other for this flying. This is basic economics, people. This so-called "race to the bottom" is a natural economic result of competition, like it or not. This has little to do with ALPA "holding the line" and more to do with oil at $70 a barrel, the absence of government subsidy, and deregulation. Airline managment is desperately looking for ways to cut costs, because they can't afford to lose business by raising prices. Unfortunately for us as pilots, after they get rid of the peanuts and the sodas and the seat pockets (like Ryanair), and contract with the regional carrier that bid at the lowest acceptable price and service, they pretty much only have the employees to go after. Until WE are a low-supply commodity, our supply-demand curve will never move upward to provide us a better salary. So while you're flogging the usual targets of managment, regional airlines, and (dare I say it, knowing I'll get flamed) non-union outfits, you might as well blame your next door neighbor, who won't pay more than $300 bucks to fly intercontinental, and your former students who kept you employed as an instructor because THEY had the aviation dream, too.

 

[kngarthur]

Thank you!!! I couldn't agree more!

Me too then!!! Please accept me!!!

 

[737 Pylt]

That is the only solution, IMHO...

AA:
I agree.....
737

 

[PHXFLYR]

A large part of the situation has to do with the after-effects of deregulation. It is no coincidence that Legacy carriers like United and Delta looked at their options when they entered Chapter 11 and decided that the way out of their quagmire was to focus on international routes. Simply put, there is too much competition to make money domestically. Who is responsible for this? The LCCs? If I can fly to Vegas from the Denver area on Southwest or Allegiant for 60 bucks each way, am I likely as a consumer to pay 250+ to go United? Not really... if I sit in coach on United, the level of service is roughly equal, thanks to cost-cutting measures (didn't NWA find they could save $11 million a year by eliminating those tiny little bags of pretzels?) So unless I want to sit first class (and pay even more) for the service, I am going to go the cheapest way possible. The thing is, you can't BLAME the LCC's. Sure, if you're selling lemonade on your street corner for 50 cents a cup, and you're making money, and I decide I want to get in on that action and open up a competing stand across the street and sell for 35 cents, you're going to be p***ed, but I have every right to do so, right? A free market economy has always been based on the concept that prices will be determined by supply and demand. If there is more supply of an equal product, prices will naturally come down. The only way to sell successfully at a higher price is to have a superior and thus unequal product, or a monopoly on the market. As we have seen from the elimination of creature comforts and "perks" like meals in coach, nobody is offering a truly superior product. Maybe the problem is that the average-joe consumer never felt like those perks were really worth paying extra for. Hence why most money is made on the business traveller, who spends half his life in a shiny cramped metal pressurized tube, and IS willing to pay to be that much less inconvenienced. As far as market monopolies go, it still exists at the "regional" level, but enough people are willing to drive to a major airport to avoid taking the "puddle jumper" that it isn't of much help to have a lock on the market at small outstations, either. But I digress...


So to continue to operate domestically, and feed their international routes, the Legacies have turned even more than before to an ALREADY EXISTING system. It is cheaper for them to pay a regional airline cost plus 5 or 10 or whatever percent to fly an RJ of some type even when the seat capacity is close. Regionals have always been around, yes as a stepping stone, and yes, paying "subpar" wages in comparison to mainline wages. So the majors are taking advantage of the market forces and utilizing the multitude of regional airlines, who are for the most part now independantly owned and are all bidding against each other for this flying. This is basic economics, people. This so-called "race to the bottom" is a natural economic result of competition, like it or not. This has little to do with ALPA "holding the line" and more to do with oil at $70 a barrel, the absence of government subsidy, and deregulation. Airline managment is desperately looking for ways to cut costs, because they can't afford to lose business by raising prices. Unfortunately for us as pilots, after they get rid of the peanuts and the sodas and the seat pockets (like Ryanair), and contract with the regional carrier that bid at the lowest acceptable price and service, they pretty much only have the employees to go after. Until WE are a low-supply commodity, our supply-demand curve will never move upward to provide us a better salary. So while you're flogging the usual targets of managment, regional airlines, and (dare I say it, knowing I'll get flamed) non-union outfits, you might as well blame your next door neighbor, who won't pay more than $300 bucks to fly intercontinental, and your former students who kept you employed as an instructor because THEY had the aviation dream, too.

Fantastic post... welcome to the madness known as FlightInfo.com:beer:


PHXFLYR

 

[Sinca3]

So to continue to operate domestically, and feed their international routes, the Legacies have turned even more than before to an ALREADY EXISTING system. It is cheaper for them to pay a regional airline cost plus 5 or 10 or whatever percent to fly an RJ of some type even when the seat capacity is close. Regionals have always been around, yes as a stepping stone, and yes, paying "subpar" wages in comparison to mainline wages. So the majors are taking advantage of the market forces and utilizing the multitude of regional airlines, who are for the most part now independantly owned and are all bidding against each other for this flying. This is basic economics, people. This so-called "race to the bottom" is a natural economic result of competition, like it or not. This has little to do with ALPA "holding the line" and more to do with oil at $70 a barrel, the absence of government subsidy, and deregulation. Airline managment is desperately looking for ways to cut costs, because they can't afford to lose business by raising prices. Unfortunately for us as pilots, after they get rid of the peanuts and the sodas and the seat pockets (like Ryanair), and contract with the regional carrier that bid at the lowest acceptable price and service, they pretty much only have the employees to go after. Until WE are a low-supply commodity, our supply-demand curve will never move upward to provide us a better salary. So while you're flogging the usual targets of managment, regional airlines, and (dare I say it, knowing I'll get flamed) non-union outfits, you might as well blame your next door neighbor, who won't pay more than $300 bucks to fly intercontinental, and your former students who kept you employed as an instructor because THEY had the aviation dream, too.

I thought these comments from Jim Whitehurst (COO DAL) during a employee chat session on 5/11/06 were intresting:
Question 1- The Cost per Available Seat Mile of the regional jets is very high in comparison to mainline service, and passengers are beginning to dislike flying them, especially on some of the longer flights. Are the numbers of RJs in Delta's fleet justified by the revenue generation they produce in some of the smaller cities?
Answer from Jim Whitehurst:
Currently, RJ CASMs are significantly higher than mainline. That was not the case prior to our 2004 restructuring, when our mainline costs were high and fuel costs were low (RJs are much less fuel efficient on a CASM basis). Clearly given our new mainline cost structure and current high fuel costs, I'd rather have more mainline aircraft and fewer RJs. Getting new mainline aircraft will take time. In the interim, we need to continue serving those cities. So, while we are reducing our number of RJs substantially while in bankruptcy, they will remain a core part of our fleet.
Question 2- Presubmitted Question The 737-200's and 737-300's will be retiring more this fall. You have mentioned that they might be replaced eventually by 737-700's or smaller 70 or 90 seat jets. If they are replaced with the smaller planes, other than the 737-700, won't there be a loss of more Delta jobs, pilots, flight attendants, and possibly ground staff since a Connection Carrier would be flying those jets? If that is true, is there anyway for Delta mainline pilots and flight attendants to work those planes. Yes, Delta would be expanding, but Delta people would continue to be downsized. Can you address these issues?
Answer from Jim Whitehurst- Any aircraft above 76 seats will be flown by mainline. To be clear, the 76 seaters are a marginal economic boost over a 70 seater (required post NW ability to fly them.) We view them as a 70 seater with slightly better economics. They do not replace our need for a 100 seater in the mainline. Any 100 seater would be in the mainline and will likely be growth aircraft, creating new jobs.