Delta Connection Academy...THOUGHTS????

[GreatLakesWings]

Hi Everyone,
This past few days my friend and I have visited the Delta Connection Academy in Florida. We were flown out there for free on standby tickets in order to check out the facility.

We took our tour yesterday, and have mixed feelings both good and bad about the facility. It was a lot of salesman talk and we did not get a big chance to talk to some of the current students or instructors.

There were both good things and bad things as I have mentioned. One good thing (if it is really true) is that they give you a very good chance of flying first officer after instructing with them for 800 hours (ground and flight) and having 100 multi and 1000 total time. I have heard from a few of my pilots on the way flying back that it was a pretty good place to go from what they heard.

Some of the bad things is that they put you in a contract to instruct for 800 hours (ground and flight combined) for $10 bucks/hour. Also another bad thing that they demonstrated was something along the lines of "our school is the best, and other schools don't do it right...we do" which seemed like a bad attitude from the start because I currently attend Western Michigan University for flight science and I am very satisfied and fullfilled by most of my lessons there.

BOTTOM LINE: what i am looking for is someone who may have some input on this whole situation. OR if someone has actually gone though this program how everything went while attending.

I am currently working on my instrument right now at WMU and will be finishing with my multi commerical rating.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
John

 

[SMOE]

Check out the following threads under training: "Getting the axe@DCA" and "Flight Safety Academy". Much info from all sides there.

 

[lymanm]

This is a collection of my posts from the last week alone (this seems to be a popular topic!)

Good luck with your decision, PM me if you need any more info.

___

For what it's worth, I attended DCA (then Comair Academy) from 2000 to 2001. I was fresh out of highschool, and had been impressed with the glossy ads, and the free visit down there. While this isn't directly FSI related, I think it's a good idea to get a fair idea what is out there.

Pros

The training was excellent, the instructors knowlegable and were always willing to put in the free ground instruction because they knew just how much everyone was paying. Instructors were instructors - some lacked in some areas, some were excellent in others. I came in with my PPL from a P61 school, and completed my Instrument, Com/SE and CFI. I was always impressed with the quality of training and the "airline style" environment was an excellent foundation to my cockpit habits.

Cons

It was expensive. Per hour was more than your P61 FBO and the rigid P141 program did not lead to cost-saving flexibility. The aircraft were by no means pigs, but were not even close to state of the art. There was always a period during my Instrument and Com/SE where there was a shortage of aircraft, in one case going 6 days without flying. After living expenses, those 6 days add up. You get what you pay for, obviously, and I doubt I could have gone through my training as fast or with such regimented standards as I'd gone through.

Oh ya, living in Sanford sucks a$$, especially for a 19 year old!

Epilogue

I never did my CFII, nor applied to instruct at Comair, as I intended to go to school to get my BA (which I've finished 2 of 4 years currently). I currently instruct during my summers with my Comair CFI in a small town P61 operator. I would not have been able to competently handle the responsiblity and open standards had I not come from a P141 school, BUT I cannot see how CFIs in P141 schools learn how to make decisions as one does in a P61 environment, as there is zero flexibility to tailor flights to specific student problems.

The fact is, DCA provides excellent quality and training standards. If you go in expecting a fast past program that nets you above average flying skills, you'll be satisfied. If you go there expecting the moon, you may be *SEVERELY*. My old roomie put in 18 months there and was shafted on the standz flight. He let it get to him, having not flown an hour since then. If you ignore the PR department and view the airline graduation steps as a bonus, you'll be quite pleased.

In any event, I'd venture to say that those who join the academy expecting airline placement are probably not there for the right reasons...

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

Oh ya, living in Sanford sucks a$$, especially for a 19 year old!

I lived in Sanford while I went to DCA and I was 19 years old.
Don't listen to this priss. Living in Nome, Alaska sucks, not living in Sanford. Just don't live in the prissy apartments in the nice part of town... there are apartments in the Ghetto (try 25th street) for only $350/mo. and the excitement there is nonstop. Oh sure, it's boring if you need to be entertained and have no imagination, but Orange Ave in Orlando is 20 minutes away and for the kids who need to be entertained, Disney World is only 35-40 minutes away. Also, if you're wise, you won't be out looking to "have a good time" and you'll back-seat as many flights as you can and study your backside off... then you won't need the wonderful social life that Sanford has to offer.

I would not have been able to competently handle the responsiblity and open standards had I not come from a P141 school, BUT I cannot see how CFIs in P141 schools learn how to make decisions as one does in a P61 environment, as there is zero flexibility to tailor flights to specific student problems.

I left DCA after my CFII because of the pay, and I've had one airline interview since leaving there in 2000, so tough it out. I have been flight instructing for nearly four years Part 61 and haven't had a problem outside the Part 141 environment, so that's not a factor. I still wouldn't endorse leaving DCA unless they kick you out. Stick it out (even for the $10/hr or whatever it is now) and you'll find yourself in the right seat of an RJ in no time (even if it isn't for Comair).

My old roomie put in 18 months there and was shafted on the standz flight. He let it get to him, having not flown an hour since then.

I would like to have psychologically evaluated your roomie, because he clearly can't handle rejection. I'd hate to see him get turned down by a girl... perhaps he would give up and turn gay, no? All my friends who stuck it out with DCA back in 2000 are either in upgrade training (for captain) or are already there. So there.

In any event, I'd venture to say that those who join the academy expecting airline placement are probably not there for the right reasons...

Yeah, the right reasons would be so they can spend 18 months in training and then quit, because they were just joking. What is this guy smoking? If you don't want to go to the airlines, DON'T GO TO DCA... unless you have lots of money. In that case... send it to me at PO Box 726. If you're writing a check, my best friends call me "Cash." On the other hand, if you want to go to the airlines as quickly as possible and are willing to spend as much money as it takes ($70-$90 large), go to DCA.

It was a lot of salesman talk and we did not get a big chance to talk to some of the current students or instructors.

Of course it was salesman talk. What do you think they're there for, oriental massage? It's a product... a very expensive product... wait, I changed my mind... it's a program, and they're there to get you to buy into the program. And where did you go after the tour? If you had spent less time at the titty-bar and more time sticking around campus, you'd have met some DCA pilots. Wait... I regress... if you HAD gone to a titty-bar, then perhaps you would have met a lot of DCA pilots and gotten the info you were looking for.

In conclusion, I'd like to say, don't go to DCA for 18 months and quit because you didn't cut it in standz class. If you go, go for broke, because that's what you'll be. DCA works if you stick it out... money, that is. Good luck.

PS. I was just joking about all that. You know, the gay thing and stuff, I'm sure the guy could take rejection just fine. Hah! Okay. I'm done now. Seriously. Bye.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair, oops, Delta Connection Academy

I currently attend Western Michigan University for flight science and I am very satisfied and fullfilled by most of my lessons there.

I'm a little confused. Why would you even bother visiting Comair if you're already enrolled in a good program that leads to ratings AND a degree?

Having said that, I interviewed for a CFI job there twelve years ago. I realize that things can change in that amount of time. I traveled two-thousand miles on my nickel for about fifteen minutes with the Chief Flight Instructor and an hour flight. I did not like the atmosphere. It seemed oppressive. I was not even given the courtesy of a rejection letter, once again, after a two-thousand mile trip.

Now, having gotten that out the way, the school's record proves that the program works; however, and this is a big however, you have to be one of the persistent and fortunate few to (1) be hired for your 800 hour/$10 per hour contract and then (2) get "the interview." If any of the salesmen were promising or guaranteeing a Comair interview, they were blowing smoke up your six. Stories abound about how people leave Comair because they can't stand it or hack it, and about those who complete the CFI program but aren't hired.

I second the recommendation about reading the other threads to learn more about Comair. Best of luck with your plans.

 

[lymanm]

...

"Yeah, the right reasons would be so they can spend 18 months in training and then quit, because they were just joking. What is this guy smoking?"

Needless flaming aside, I was referring to those that are flipping through a magazine and suddenly proclaim "Hey! I wanna be an airline pilot! How easy it looks, too!" and fall for those cute, glossy DCA ads. Y'know, the types that wouldn't know an ERJ from a B-17... My aforementioed roommate wanted an airline job "to buy a house on Nantucket". Wrong business.

"Don't listen to this priss. Living in Nome, Alaska sucks, not living in Sanford."

Uh oh, what have I done? I should listen this guy and "tough it out" just to prove how manly I am. I must change my softie ways and move to Khatmandu, hahaha. Thanks ShyFlyGuy, what an epiphany! Seriously, you do need the distraction every now and then or you'll go crazy at DCA.

But fundamentally, ShyFlyGuy and I are saying the same thing: everything DCA promises in their shiny ads *can* come true. Just don't expect them hand it to you on a silver platter.

 

[CFI'er]

Please Visit All Schools That You Can

DCA is not for all aspiring student pilots that want to train for a career as an airline pilot. Why do you think they kept you at arms length. You should have talked with more than one student, away from the First, the class schedule and flight schedule is intense and will take a little adjustment on the new students part. If you like sleeping in and would rather go to the beach than attend class, for-get-it. If you just got by in high school, don’t even think about DCA. If DCA required entrance exams, like the college/university school system, then a lot of brokenhearted kids would have saved time and money. What the fancy ads should state is this: “Over 5% of our entire yearly enrollment are guaranteed an interview with an actual airline representative.” Here is the current ad guarantee and read closely: “As a graduate, you will be GUARANTEED a job interview within the Delta Connection system.” What does the word graduate mean? Is the interview for CFI, and working at DCA, part of the requirements to graduate? The reason I ask this is, if you are not hired by DCA as an instructor, can you go outside the DCA environment, build up the required hours and then go back to DCA for the airline interview? I don’t think this is ever going to happen, boys & girls. Do think long and hard on going to DCA and the other Academy’s out there. Don't be mislead by the free airline ride to visit. Has anyone that that had attended DCA, go out on their own, build up the required hours and receive the airline interview arranged by DCA?

 

[ShyFlyGuy]

Needless Flaming

Perhaps my flaming was needless. I now understand what lymanm was saying about his roomie, and in fact, know of a couple of stories like his room mate's from the time period I was there... hell, they may be the same people. Just don't let the failure stories scare you off. There are many more success stories when people stuck it out... unlike me. Just don't leave for the "greener pastures," unless you're locked out of the pen (by a failed interview). There are many other ways to get behind the wheel of an RJ.

In response to CFI'er's question about anyone leaving DCA and getting to an interview at Comair with the help of DCA, that's a big fat no. I went back three times and asked if I could get an interview with Comair because I finished all my ratings at DCA and they entertained me and showed me a bunch of mirrors and blew a lot of smoke... I don't know how it happened, but I went in there with 2000tt and 750multi and walked out with an application to the Sanford Truck-Driving School. Very strange. I got the job with STD and then DCA added me to the "hundreds" of successes. I'm not sure why my a$$ hurts... either from sitting in the rig for too long or from being bent over by DCA.

 

[skybuda]

GreatLakesWings

PM me I went to both Western Michigan and Comair Aviation Acc. back in 1998. I will give you the pros and cons of both from what you are seeing right now and what you will get when there. Both have there good points and both have some bad ones, but you can make the mix of the two work well.

 

[CFI'er]

All Good Reply's, However

A lot has changed since most of you, the ones making comments, attended the DCA/ Comair Academy. Keep this in mind when you, potential student, read the Pros & Cons. The 9/11 event also changed how the academies do business. Are the ads always truthful? No not always and this is the Catch-22. The big academies give the impression that all who attend and pass the required courses will automatically get hired. Do college and university schools guarantee you a job with your dream company? No they don't.

I would like to see the training schools change the way they advertise and be up front with what to expect. Such words as "Guaranteed airline interview", "Train now and don't pay back loan until two years after you're hired", "Get the competitive edge", "Learn faster and have fun", "Choose an Academy whose only goal is to get you hired at an airline-sooner than possible anywhere else", "Low interest loans available with no payment required for over 24 months", "Where you train says a lot about where you'll go" "97% of our graduates are hired as First Officers", "0 time to ATP-total 1500 hours $39,950", "We train you. We hire you at 250 hours. Guaranteed", gives the impression that all a student has to do is enroll at XYZ Academy and they are guaranteed and airline pilot job. All the “words” above were taken from ads that appear in a leading aviation magazine. The Academy websites are another sore spot and these too need to be looked at with an open mind.

The best advice we can give is to visit as many Academies as possible and ask a lot of questions, not only with the Academy representative, also with current students. Make a list of questions before you visit and compare each Academy. I highly suggest that you take a “Discovery Flight”, if you haven’t flown a general aviation fixed wing aircraft, how do you know this is what you want to do for a living until you try? We all know that dream can come crashing down when reality hits after spending all that money and time, and you find out you’re not airline pilot material.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight school "ads"

Such words as "Guaranteed airline interview", "Train now and don't pay back loan until two years after you're hired", "Get the competitive edge", "Learn faster and have fun", "Choose an Academy whose only goal is to get you hired at an airline-sooner than possible anywhere else", "Low interest loans available with no payment required for over 24 months", "Where you train says a lot about where you'll go" "97% of our graduates are hired as First Officers", "0 time to ATP-total 1500 hours $39,950", "We train you. We hire you at 250 hours. Guaranteed" . . . .

Don't forget the classic, "From Zero Time to Airline Cockpit in Nine Months." That one is especially rich.

Good comments and thoughts.

 

[Timebuilder]

I flew down to Sanford in Spring of 2000 to visit the then "Comair Academy" and go to Sun n Fun.

The students were a mess. Imprinterd T shirts, shorts, and sandals. The only people that looked even 50% presentable as professionals were the instructors. They were friendly, and I got some compliments on the Frasca Sim flight I did, with ILS to a landing. I saw some classes, and witnessed a minute of some FO training with senior instructors.

I came very close to taking my CFI training there and becoming a part of that group that hoped for FO positions. Maybe I'd have a job now if I had done so, but that is more a function of the other choice I made: stay at the field where I took my Instrument and Commercial training.

Part of my decision was the cost of the CFI training: far greater than I thought was warranted. Add to that cost the relocation for one to two years, and the cost of an apartment. It seemed that I could do just as well at home, with far lower costs, become the assistant chief instructor, and fly the navajo across the field for charter experience. I would be well on my way with a job, experience, and be well prepared for Comair.

Since then, a lot has happened, and here I am on the ground. I can't say 100% that wouldn't have been the case if I had attended Comair Academy, though. Truthfully, I would have been relying on the idea of getting the Comair interview, and that isn't a shoo-in proposition. Not every instructor stays for the full 800, and not every student becomes a Comair instructor. I can live with the choice I made, and be happy about it.

I do recall the planes looking a little bit "old" compared to what I had exxpected to see, and the students looked out of place compared to the well groomed instructors. The bell in flight ops was a cute touch, and was rung to celebrate a student accomplishment while I was there.

If you have the dough and the drive, it might be just what you are looking for. Then again, if you are a part of an excellent college program, I would stay where you are.

 

[Fly BI]

We've got several CFI's that trained at FSI. They speak highly of that place but are indebted for a long, long time.

 

[CFI'er]

Only 6% Of DCA Students Hired

Ask the CFI's that went to FSI why they were not working at FSI as flight instructors? If you read the ads and look at the FSI website, they make it sound as if FSI is your ticket to the airlines as a pilot. I think FSI is like the rest of the "Big Academies" that promise and "GUARANTEE” airline jobs and connections, but are faulty on most accounts when it comes to the number of actual hires with the airlines. Sure, some make it to the right seat, airline pilot slot, but majority do not. How can a school, such as DCA, boast of having the most pilot certificates issued of any school in the world, and have less than, on average, only 3 former "graduate" students a month get hired by the "connection" airlines. Here is DCA’s own written word in the magazine ads and website.

“Even in today’s job market, 97% of our graduates are hired as First Officers!*”

The asterisk * small print at the bottom of ads reads: “* 728 out of 754 students who completed the entire program through August 2003”. Wow, that is fantastic, don’t you know? DCA has been in business since 1987, which is 16 years. If you divide 728 by that 16 years you only get 45.5 students per year, or 3 students per month on average, that graduate. This means less than 6% of their students make it as First Officers. Do you really want to spend all that money to attend DCA, knowing that only 6% or less of the attending students are hired as First Officers?

 

[huncowboy]

CFI'er.

Are you trying to say that 12133 (728/6 x 100) students is the total number of students that have ever attended DCA? Because then you get 728 for your 6%.

I have no clue how many attended, but I guess you do have a source for that info. Would you mind sharing it with us? Thanks!

 

[CFI'er]

DCA's Own Numbers

It is DCA's own figures from their website and magazine ads. Do the math. They have 16 years of business and have only 754 students that have graduated. That figures out to only, on average, 47 students per year. What I can't seem to find out is what do they mean by "graduate" and "guarantee Interview"?

 

[CFI'er]

The Real Question

Found this interesting response on another aviation website. You should consider the cost of an "Academy" before you make that jump.

"My question to you: Can you afford a student loan payment of $600/month and still live, while only earning $1,833/month gross, First Officer's pay? Take home pay is estimated at only $1,166. Take a look at what it will cost you per month on average.

Loan............$600
Car payment..$300
Car Ins.........$300
Apartment.....$500
Food.............$400
Utilities..........$200

Total............$2300

More than likely the example is conservative and it probably will cost you more to live than what I estimated. I did not include monthly items such as clothing, gas, beer, movies, tolls, diapers, A lot depends on base domicile
Where are you going to get the extra $1,184 take home pay per month for living expenses? Is you wife working full time?

Even the loan companies say that a student loan payment per month should not be more that 10% of monthly gross pay. "

 

[huncowboy]

Re: DCA's Own Numbers

It is DCA's own figures from their website and magazine ads. Do the math. They have 16 years of business and have only 754 students that have graduated. That figures out to only, on average, 47 students per year. What I can't seem to find out is what do they mean by "graduate" and "guarantee Interview"?

yada yada yada... Where does it say 12000 students enrolled in 16 years? I don't see that anywhere.

 

[SMOE]

Re: Re: DCA's Own Numbers

yada yada yada... Where does it say 12000 students enrolled in 16 years? I don't see that anywhere.

Where are you getting 12000 from? Math is not my strong suite but 754 x .06 (6%) = 45.24

How could 6% of a number be larger than the original number?

That 754 would be the number of "graduates" who were hired as instructors and logged 800 dual given at slave wages. Who were good little robots, who never spoke up when they saw something done wrong or saw a student getting screwed, who played the game all for an early interview.

 

[172driver]

No, math isn't your strong point. CFI'er is saying that 754 graduates is 6% of total students since 1987. 754 is 6% of roughly 12,000. 754/.06=12,567. Again, where does it say that 12,000 students enrolled since 1987?

CFI'er: I am indeed living on a FO salary and making my loan payment. Your figures are wildly exaggerated. Here's what I spend and how I make it...

Salary is roughly $1700/mo. plus per diem. Lowest take home around $1700, sometimes more.

Loan......................$400 ($50K loan)
Car payment..........$0
Insurance.............. $110 (full coverage)
Apartment..............$300 (with master bedroom and bath)
Food.......................$400 (your number)
Utilities....................$200 (with digital cable and h/s internet)

Total.......................$1410

Don't forget that second year pay will go up to about $3200/mo, not including per diem. There are indeed some lean times, especially instructing at the academy but it is definitely possible.

Where did you get your figure of 6%?? I suspect it is another exaggeration but probably not wildly off the mark. Maybe closer to 25%. However, what you're not pointing out is the normal attrition rate at any FBO, academy, college, etc. who does flight training. To be fair to DCA, you ought to post accurate numbers from at least one of each. I am positive you would find similar results.

Almost all of the attrition I saw at DCA was students with an attitude like yours. 'I can do it cheaper elsewhere.' "I don't like the schedule.' 'The airplanes are old.' 'The academy is charging too much.' Well, these things are all true but they are selling a superior product...excellent training, proven success of grads at the top regional, the interview. I might point out that those who stick it out and don't exercise the 'greener grass' option are 97% successful at the interview.

I moved out from the west coast to attend DCA. Had not a penny to my name and parents who were unable to help financially. I had to succeed or kiss away the money I borrowed. It was the scariest and the best choice I ever made. I love my job.

Many who left did so because they were too young or immature to handle it, didn't plan well financially, weren't cut out to be pilots. But the most common thing I saw was a simple lack of motivation, work ethic, study habits, leading to spending way more than expected.

BTW, Timebuilder, you'll be happy to know that the students are now in uniform.