Delta cancels upcoming interviews

[cale42]

Alright, first off I will always give credit where it is due.

data, finding an actual article by Arthur Laffer to contradict my point was sheer genius. Great find.

It's your buddy Laffer again. Here's a relevant passage...

"During this era of ubiquitous tax cuts, income tax receipts from the top 1% of income earners rose to 3.3% of GDP in 2007 (the latest year for which we have data) from 1.5% of GDP in 1978. Income tax receipts from the bottom 95% of income earners fell to 3.2% of GDP from 5.4% of GDP over the same time period."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575393882112674598.html

However I take issue with two points here. One of the fundamental arguments early on was whether tax cuts increase revenue or not. Well a little simple math with the above quote shows that in 1978 96% of the population provided tax revenues of 6.9%(5.4 + 1.5). In 2007 96% of the population provided tax revenues of 6.5%(3.3 + 3.2). So in fact the tax revenues went down by .4% of GDP. Why the article left out the 97-99 percentiles is beyond me but I suspect that data wasn't so supportive. So with an estimated GDP of 14.6 trillion a drop in tax revenue of .4% equals a dollar value $560 billion. To me that is a pretty massive drop in tax revenue.

Second, I found Laffer to be self contradicting in his article. That's no fault of any poster here, but he makes references to the Kennedy tax cuts as an example of today, yet at that time taxes were 91% at the high end. That is very different from the 35% we have today. In fact in every example where he shows raising taxes was bad the baseline number was much higher than 35%. His own named curve directly contradicts that those are valid comparisons. Though to be clear, he didn't invent the curve, just put his name on it.

So while I applaud the finding of the article, what I got out of was the tax cuts are costing us nearly half a trillion a year in revenue and Arthur Laffer is out of touch with his past self.

cale

 

[cale42]

Cale;

The philosophical difference I am seeing is that I look to business for answers on jobs, and the government for answers in protecting American's and America. The government can fight legislatively for protection of American workers without a government program or spending American tax dollars.

ACLPILOT,

I'll even go one step further, I see the philosophical difference as you inherently trust in business and I don't. I once did, but I don't think I do anymore. I don't mean what follows to sound like a sob story, because I've really had a pretty lucky career in a lot of ways, but a few lowlights are necessary to show why I feel the way I do.

I worked 3 years in IT, since I've left I've seen lots of ex colleagues jobs farmed out to India, and they are left unable to find comparable work.

I've worked at 2 regionals. The first I left of my accord but I would be furloughed now had I stayed. The second got bought out and replaced the routes we were flying with their own planes and pilots and gave me the option to start over with a two leg commute and $23/hr.

That encompasses the better part of my work career in the last decade. Few if any times has "business" done right by me or anyone around me. They've done right by their bottom line often at the expense of many people's livelihoods.

At this point my faith in companies is shattered. I would like to believe that the consumer will be the watchdog, and it will force companies to reverse their ways and produce quality products built by content employees, but I simply don't believe it. Those consumers have seen their wages and earning power destroyed by the same companies and so they can't demand anything, they get what they can afford which is cheap stuff(the walmart paradigm if you will)

10 years ago we never would have had this discussion because I would have whole heartedly agreed with every point you have made here. Maybe I have battered worker syndrome, maybe I'll get on next year with a great company and it will change my entire outlook. I can't say. Right now though I just don't trust business to do it right and I'll take my chances with the government(and yes I'm aware many people would say it is a worse choice but it is all I've got for now)

cale

 

[asadonkey]

hows that hope and change thing working out for you?

It is amazing how socialists can look at the absolute disasters ( by the thousands) and still want to go down the same road like sheep marching off a cliff.

Capitalsm isn't perfect but its better than the alternatives.

You trusting the government to solve your problems speakes volumes about yourself.
WOW are we screwed as a country when the majority believes what cale does and the piped piper warms up. ALL HAIL TO THE CHIEF OBAMA march us to the promise land LOL

 

[Data]

Right now though I just don't trust business to do it right and I'll take my chances with the government(and yes I'm aware many people would say it is a worse choice but it is all I've got for now)

cale

Thread hijack closed as far as I'm concerned, not even worth responding.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not you ACL....you're already here. I needed directions to fingerprinting and chatted the guys interviewing...they were good fun. Hire them all for personality. Thanks for the welcome...STOKED to be here. Some great opportunities. Looking forward to the future.

Baja.

Yep. A lot of good stuff coming. Again, it is a great place to be and be back to. Welcome back. So did you take the 9?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACLPILOT,

I'll even go one step further, I see the philosophical difference as you inherently trust in business and I don't. I once did, but I don't think I do anymore. I don't mean what follows to sound like a sob story, because I've really had a pretty lucky career in a lot of ways, but a few lowlights are necessary to show why I feel the way I do.

I worked 3 years in IT, since I've left I've seen lots of ex colleagues jobs farmed out to India, and they are left unable to find comparable work.

I've worked at 2 regionals. The first I left of my accord but I would be furloughed now had I stayed. The second got bought out and replaced the routes we were flying with their own planes and pilots and gave me the option to start over with a two leg commute and $23/hr.

That encompasses the better part of my work career in the last decade. Few if any times has "business" done right by me or anyone around me. They've done right by their bottom line often at the expense of many people's livelihoods.

At this point my faith in companies is shattered. I would like to believe that the consumer will be the watchdog, and it will force companies to reverse their ways and produce quality products built by content employees, but I simply don't believe it. Those consumers have seen their wages and earning power destroyed by the same companies and so they can't demand anything, they get what they can afford which is cheap stuff(the walmart paradigm if you will)

10 years ago we never would have had this discussion because I would have whole heartedly agreed with every point you have made here. Maybe I have battered worker syndrome, maybe I'll get on next year with a great company and it will change my entire outlook. I can't say. Right now though I just don't trust business to do it right and I'll take my chances with the government(and yes I'm aware many people would say it is a worse choice but it is all I've got for now)

cale

You have some valid points, but my major point is government and higher taxes in not the answer to these issues. It is accountability and a level playing field for all contenders. That includes labor. Like I said, give labor and corporations enough rope to hang themselves with and all of a sudden each truly depends on the other for the success or failure of the corporation. (Think MAD)

Artificial protections in this global market will lead to isolationism and eventually being surpasses and we put or heads in the sand. I am upset at the as well with some of the issues you point out. You also have to remember that some companies are reversing the trend and bringing jobs and manufacturing back to the USA. Why? The quality of the product will allow their product to sell and business to flourish. I know many corporations that are seeing better products, customer loyalty and profits with this decision. Labor can play a part in this as well.

I stand by my statement that regulations and rules created by the elite of either side of the isle are not a solution for any of the issues this economy faces. Short term band aids, maybe, but not long term solutions.

 

[cale42]

hows that hope and change thing working out for you?

It is amazing how socialists can look at the absolute disasters ( by the thousands) and still want to go down the same road like sheep marching off a cliff.

Capitalsm isn't perfect but its better than the alternatives.

You trusting the government to solve your problems speakes volumes about yourself.
WOW are we screwed as a country when the majority believes what cale does and the piped piper warms up. ALL HAIL TO THE CHIEF OBAMA march us to the promise land LOL

To quote todays teeangers.. "OMFG". Why is it that in this political climate every mention of additional taxes or government is deemed socialism? I'm not talking about freaking Cuba, China, or USSR. I'm talking about systems like what Britain, France, Canada, and Spain have. Last time I checked noone was deeming them socialist powers. However all have higher tax rates than the US and provide more support for their workers in terms of health care, retirement, and general quality of life issues.

I'm going to go out on a limb here(and likely draw some vehement responses) but I'm going to say the main difference between the US and Western Europe approaches stems from the "American Dream" We still teach our kids and our immigrants and everyone else that you can come to the US, work hard and be wildly successful. We support this all the time with news stories of people who have made it big with their own businesses and their own fortunes. We trumpet our rules and reg's as allowing this to happen freely. The reality is that "American Dream" comes true for well less than 1% of the population. Think for a minute of how many self made millionaires you actually know. Now think of how many people you know who are good honest hard working people that bust their butts but will never be rich. I'm going to guess that is most of all of our buddies.

Western Europe embraces that 90% of people are genuinely good hard working folks who will never strike it rich. They tailor their rules and regulations to help that 90% rather than help the less than 1%. So the mandate that their workers get 8+ weeks of vacation a year, they provide basic health care for all, and they help make it possible for everybody to retire. You can still start a business and make a mint in Europe, but for sure there are more barriers to entry and success.

Quite simply Western Europe embraces that while the American Dream is all find and dandy in this day and age 99% of any population(the US's included) will never live it. So they support that 99%. Personally I think we could learn from this.

cale

 

[cale42]

You have some valid points, but my major point is government and higher taxes in not the answer to these issues. It is accountability and a level playing field for all contenders. That includes labor. Like I said, give labor and corporations enough rope to hang themselves with and all of a sudden each truly depends on the other for the success or failure of the corporation. (Think MAD)

Artificial protections in this global market will lead to isolationism and eventually being surpasses and we put or heads in the sand. I am upset at the as well with some of the issues you point out. You also have to remember that some companies are reversing the trend and bringing jobs and manufacturing back to the USA. Why? The quality of the product will allow their product to sell and business to flourish. I know many corporations that are seeing better products, customer loyalty and profits with this decision. Labor can play a part in this as well.

I stand by my statement that regulations and rules created by the elite of either side of the isle are not a solution for any of the issues this economy faces. Short term band aids, maybe, but not long term solutions.

We are quickly reaching some middle ground here.

You say a level playing field for everyone including labor. I'm willing to retract a majority of my statements if I can have that. The abuse of labor in this country is unconscionable. Business leaders under the guise of "capitalism" have made it difficult to organize, unbelievably difficult to negotiate a contract and borderline impossible to strike. I mean look at a couple example just out of aviation of late, Air Canada Jazz, was allowed to strike less than 10 months out of contract. Weeks later they had a great new deal. The BA cabin crew strike happened while under contract due to violations of their contract by management. Can you imagine what would happen if instead of being told fly it and grieve it we told them, if you make me fly this we strike? Can you imagine what it would be like if 2/3 of our regional carriers weren't currently operating with contracts that are more than 2 years past expiration.

I will happily allow that if labor had the power that most countries give it my call for worker protections would be a moot point.

However I suspect it would not reduce all need for protections. As soon as labor was granted that power, business would call foul and say they need to move hundreds of thousands more jobs offshore. So there would need to be some level of protectio0n against that.

Finally, we have to acknowledge while overdoing isolationism can be dangerous, some level of protection is necessary. And usually no matter how absurd it seems on paper it isn't too terrible in practice. China is the shining example on this currently. Fixing the yuan to the dollar has to be one of the most ridiculous predatory practices out there.. but it hasn't exactly hurt their trade has it?

cale

 

[cale42]

Thread hijack closed as far as I'm concerned, not even worth responding.

I'll take that back.. even as I typed it I thought it sounded a little dumb, but after a long day I let it stand.

I'm not trusting in the government to fix my problems, but I'm not trusting that giving business carte blanche will do it either. We need middle ground.

better?

cale

 

[General Lee]

Way too boring Kudlow and Kramer. Come on now, let's talk about Delta, hiring, SWA, Comair, LBB, or something more interesting or entertaining for the rest of us. Why don't you PM each other with some long retorts? Some politico stuff is ok every now and then, but 500 word rants are too much.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Data]

I'll take that back.. even as I typed it I thought it sounded a little dumb, but after a long day I let it stand.

I'm not trusting in the government to fix my problems, but I'm not trusting that giving business carte blanche will do it either. We need middle ground.

better?

cale

Fair enough. My problem with a government solution to business problems is that the same greed (man's greed) that destroys business, destroys government as well, and with larger implications. At least with business you can fight back, it's not easy but look at what smartphone OS' are doing to Microsoft. Apple recently passed Microsoft in Market Cap. I know it's not over or a done deal for Microsoft, but Apple's success is due to a friggen OS on a phone! Government, however, good luck changing that, it takes arms and a revolution to accomplish that. It's too late imho, like every great society before us, we will eventually implode from the inefficiencies of large bureaucracy. I'd just like to prolong it as much as possible and, in today's climate, that means getting rid of the Democrats in Congress and then Obama in '12.

 

[SLUF4]

can we change the title of this thread or start a new one

 

[cale42]

Fair enough. My problem with a government solution to business problems is that the same greed (man's greed) that destroys business, destroys government as well, and with larger implications. At least with business you can fight back, it's not easy but look at what smartphone OS' are doing to Microsoft. Apple recently passed Microsoft in Market Cap. I know it's not over or a done deal for Microsoft, but Apple's success is due to a friggen OS on a phone! Government, however, good luck changing that, it takes arms and a revolution to accomplish that. It's too late imho, like every great society before us, we will eventually implode from the inefficiencies of large bureaucracy. I'd just like to prolong it as much as possible and, in today's climate, that means getting rid of the Democrats in Congress and then Obama in '12.

I agree with this post whole heartedly, except the last sentence. The smartphone OS is example is great, and works well for consumer products. However if we don't allow a certain level of bureaucracy who monitors things like deep well drilling. Anyone naive enough to think that BP is the problem and that every other oil company isn't taking the same risks is sadly disillusioned. In the gas industry it is about producing the most gas for the cheapest. Period. Consumers don't care they just want cheap gas. So the companies take huge risks to produce it. Corporations have no soul. So I will take my chances with Obama and his increased regulation to prevent big business from imploding society(which I agree completely has peaked and is on a downward hill.. I could write a thesis comparing the Greek city states to the US.. but that's another thread

 

[cale42]

Way too boring Kudlow and Kramer. Come on now, let's talk about Delta, hiring, SWA, Comair, LBB, or something more interesting or entertaining for the rest of us. Why don't you PM each other with some long retorts? Some politico stuff is ok every now and then, but 500 word rants are too much.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

Cmon Lee.. can't we have at least one post on FI that is more educational and thought provoking than entertaining? There is still plenty of threads about the ASA lines and if Comair is or isn't for sale for entertainments sake.

cale

 

[GogglesPisano]

Kudlow and Kramer? More like Paul Krugman vs the staff of Fox and Friends.

Nice work, Cale. Top marks.

 

[Jiminmem]

can we change the title of this thread or start a new one

Exactly. Delta said they needed 305 more pilots. They got 305, there were rumours, started here, that they'd hire over 600. They spread to 600 this year and even more next year, yet these were shot down in a number of pilot meetings.

Guess what? Sometimes management press releases are true.

If you want to argue politics or tax systems, start another thread. Don't use an example of Delta doing exactly what it said it would as excuse for your arguments one way or another.

 

[cale42]

I have no idea how to do it, but in a deference to the many who don't want to read about economics and feel mislead by the thread title, if I a mod would like to move this to non-aviation and rename it that would be just fine.

thanks,
cale

 

[cale42]

Kudlow and Kramer? More like Paul Krugman vs the staff of Fox and Friends.

Nice work, Cale. Top marks.

Thank you sir, appreciated!

 

[Jiminmem]

I have no idea how to do it, but in a deference to the many who don't want to read about economics and feel mislead by the thread title, if I a mod would like to move this to non-aviation and rename it that would be just fine.

thanks,
cale

I wasn't trying to be rude. You've actually been more civil then 99% of the post here.

I was just pointing out that people here seem to be reading more into the end of hiring then there really is. They said they needed just over 300, they got that many through recalls, flow ups, and new hires. I would say that is the reason hiring is ending.

Hopefully it'll start back up soon.

 

[cale42]

I wasn't trying to be rude. You've actually been more civil then 99% of the post here.

I was just pointing out that people here seem to be reading more into the end of hiring then there really is. They said they needed just over 300, they got that many through recalls, flow ups, and new hires. I would say that is the reason hiring is ending.

Hopefully it'll start back up soon.

No worries, I agree the original point of this thread was answered back on about page 3. I would have asked to have it moved sooner, but it was garnering so much attention I hated to see it leave the mainstream.

At this point though I think it has been fully established that Delta did hire the 305 that had been expected, but was not planning to extend that number this year. The thread has definitely gone full off topic at this point, so it is probably worth moving to a more appropriate section. I think ACL and I tied some of the ideas to DAL just for an ironic attempt at keeping some of the threads' title involved

And the hopefully it'll start back up soon is the understatement of the year in my world. When you've got an alright job, waiting for your dream job to call is a nice distraction, when you are furloughed though you find yourself imagining every unknown number on the caller ID might be the one...

cale

 

[jonjuan]

when you are furloughed though you find yourself imagining every unknown number on the caller ID might be the one...

cale

They won't call......





















They email...... Good luck in EARLY 2011 to receiving an email.

 

[cale42]

Well played jonjuan.. that made me laugh.. thanks.


cale

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We are quickly reaching some middle ground here.

You say a level playing field for everyone including labor. I'm willing to retract a majority of my statements if I can have that. The abuse of labor in this country is unconscionable. Business leaders under the guise of "capitalism" have made it difficult to organize, unbelievably difficult to negotiate a contract and borderline impossible to strike. I mean look at a couple example just out of aviation of late, Air Canada Jazz, was allowed to strike less than 10 months out of contract. Weeks later they had a great new deal. The BA cabin crew strike happened while under contract due to violations of their contract by management. Can you imagine what would happen if instead of being told fly it and grieve it we told them, if you make me fly this we strike? Can you imagine what it would be like if 2/3 of our regional carriers weren't currently operating with contracts that are more than 2 years past expiration.

I will happily allow that if labor had the power that most countries give it my call for worker protections would be a moot point.

However I suspect it would not reduce all need for protections. As soon as labor was granted that power, business would call foul and say they need to move hundreds of thousands more jobs offshore. So there would need to be some level of protectio0n against that.

Finally, we have to acknowledge while overdoing isolationism can be dangerous, some level of protection is necessary. And usually no matter how absurd it seems on paper it isn't too terrible in practice. China is the shining example on this currently. Fixing the yuan to the dollar has to be one of the most ridiculous predatory practices out there.. but it hasn't exactly hurt their trade has it?

cale

Cale;
Like I said, give labor and companies enough rope to hand themselves with. I did not hang each other. It is M.A.D. Labor needs their corporation and believe it or not, the corporation needs their labor.
What you say may happen, may happen. What you would do is as the government is offer incentives for corporations to keep the jobs here. Kind of like many states do not. (Tax breaks for corporations that choose to build a plant and or headquarter in a given state, district or country) That is called capitalize.
See the principality knows that it is in their best interest to have said corporation move in. Why? Because they will get far more revenue from the lower tax rates than by sticking to their guns with a higher tax rate. This very simple example is proof of how tax cuts will increase the revenue for a municipality. Countries can do this as well.

There are a lot of areas of a total open market that scare a lot of ppl. Me too! When you have workers that are willing to do your job for 1/5 of the cost, that is bothersome, especially if it is a skilled trade or profession. There will always be countries that do not collect the tax, do not have min EPA standards etc. Think of the past 20 years. How many different countries were the hotbed of production for those annoying happy meal toys, etc? Tons. Taiwan,India, China, Bangladesh etc. Point is that it is always a moving target.

The biggest issue here in the USA is that we have all been trained to buy the deal. That a difference in off brand quality is marginal at best. We created the market that effects us. See the consumer drives the market place. Don't you go to Wal-mart or COSTCO (China Off Shore Trading Company) because it is cheaper? Well you are forcing the competition to marginally reduce the quality of their product to compete. The consumer by making a impulsive decision to buy the off brand is marginally forcing the market forces to shift.

In regard to airlines. Places like SWA, AAI Ryan Air, East Jet etc found a consumer that was willing to do with a lot less for a lot less. The conumer drove to the "No-Frills" option and killed the margins for the higher cost airlines. Well the playing filed has been leveled both for labor and for cost structure. Now you see the corporations holding capacity down in a effort to restore their margins. It is the ebb and flow of a consumer drive market place.

I could go on for hrs, but the simple fact is that at the end of the day, both labor, and corporations should be the ones that figure out their problems. Labor can get greedy and kill a corporation, but what genius is that for the labor? Government has tried to marginally protect labor and truly protect corporations from labor. It works for joe consumer until joe consumer changes his or her buying habits because they do not have the disposition income due to the inability to reap the gains and good fortune of their labor.

America was built on disposable income. Its infrastructure was built with that fact in mind. Take that disposable income away, and the country you have grown to know and love will have to change to survive. If that change needs to happen let the consumer drive it, not government bureaucracy.


(You may make assumptions about my political agenda, but this is not a political based argument for me. It is about simple economic forces and who get to drive the market)

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I'll take that back.. even as I typed it I thought it sounded a little dumb, but after a long day I let it stand.

I'm not trusting in the government to fix my problems, but I'm not trusting that giving business carte blanche will do it either. We need middle ground.

better?

cale

Bingo.

This country has and was founded on a centrist populous that may lean slightly right. Go too far either way and you upset the dynamics. Remember the Boston Tea Party? People were irked at the tariffs imposed by the Mother Country.

 

[cale42]

Cale;

The biggest issue here in the USA is that we have all been trained to buy the deal. That a difference in off brand quality is marginal at best. We created the market that effects us. See the consumer drives the market place. Don't you go to Wal-mart or COSTCO (China Off Shore Trading Company) because it is cheaper? Well you are forcing the competition to marginally reduce the quality of their product to compete. The consumer by making a impulsive decision to buy the off brand is marginally forcing the market forces to shift.

Now here is where I differ with you. I find it interesting that you chose Wal-Mart and Costco because in fact in my way of thinking they represent polar opposites.

Wal-Mart gains it's margins with some of the most legally questionable business practices I have ever seen. They pay their workers so little that they count on them being on government assistance. The wide majority of Wal-mart employees qualify for some sort of food, housing or medical assistance. They put enormous pressures on their suppliers to provide product at the price they demand regardless if it destroys the supplier in the long run, and they force any competing business out of a community by undercutting prices until they have a monopoly.

In doing this they create a self sustaining cycle. They drive many good paying jobs into non-existence. Then these people are out of work and their only option is to work at Wal-Mart. At that point all they can ever afford to do is continue to shop at Wal-Mart and rely on government aid even though they are supposedly gainfully employed.

On the flip side, Costco has built it's empire on massive bulk ordering. They pay their labor extraordinarily well.(more than a regional FO I might add). They give them great benefits. They do have some effect on local businesses, but because there business model is based on bulk sales to the consumer they don't destroy other stores and they don't destroy their suppliers. They provide workers with jobs that allow them to have discretionary income that they can then spend in other areas.

So I ask you.. in this case was this truly consumer driven, or did Wal-Mart drive consumers to only one choice?

America was built on disposable income. Its infrastructure was built with that fact in mind. Take that disposable income away, and the country you have grown to know and love will have to change to survive. If that change needs to happen let the consumer drive it, not government bureaucracy.

I maintain that disposable income is gone.. driven out by things the Wal-Mart effect and the similar Skybus effect in the airlines. The continual drive for cheaper items has reached the peak and is sliding uncontrollably downhill because wage power for labor has been destroyed. In many ways the only thing that has kept things where they are for years has been cheap credit and people's willingness to overextend themselves. So where do we go now? Will my kids be the first generation whose quality of life is worse than their parents? This is where I see the consumer driving it if left unchecked.

And for the record.. I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart because I believe they are much of what is destroying America.

So... please, paint me a rosier picture of where this consumer driven change is going to take us. Because left unchecked I don't think it is good.

cale

 

[bizicmo]

disposable income is not gone. Its just more concentrated on the top of the wealth pyramid now.

 

[Going2Baja]

Yep. A lot of good stuff coming. Again, it is a great place to be and be back to. Welcome back. So did you take the 9?

Nope...only one 9 slot and that was MEM. I needed an electric jet, being that I'm currently used to the NG - so I took the A320MSP. Going to bid anything LAX in Sept and considering ER in NYC then swap to LAX when available. Don't want to move to small 320 base in SLC. Off to find dinner...Thanks!

Baja.

 

[asadonkey]

Bingo.

This country has and was founded on a centrist populous that may lean slightly right. Go too far either way and you upset the dynamics. Remember the Boston Tea Party? People were irked at the tariffs imposed by the Mother Country.

If that tea party was held today all involved would be called redneck racists. If only the King of England had a mass media propoganda machine back then........

But.......... we would all be speaking german now anyway.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Cale;
To save ourselves 20 more pages. My point was to add something to the discussion, not to take it over.

My point is trust the consumer and the response of business. We are slowly seeing that now as our margins return in this industry. It has been a bad 10 years.

 

[michael707767]

disposable income is not gone. Its just more concentrated on the top of the wealth pyramid now.

Obama is too far the other way, but you just summed up the economy under George Bush.