Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[Flyer1015]

Uhh...You weren't compensated. Most never were, and the others received a stipend. This was the accepted method of DOH when you accepted the job, and one of the reasons I did not try to work there. Your original DOH actually meets the definition in the ALPA policy, and without the LOA, I don't think you would have a leg to stand on in this. You accepted this fact when you took the job.

If the LOA is used to adjust the DOH. So be it. This is up to Bloch. If you believe Higney, then he has already made his decision on it.

It has nothing to do with my point that the 2 definitions are both fair and valid. This is a process of determining which is to be used. It's not personal, nor is it an attack to your seniority. If anything, assuming the LOA is used, there's gain from ALPAs accepted seniority policy.

I was compensated. I received $400 a week, from Pinnacle, through their payroll system. I was in their HR and payroll deparment. ALPA's merger policy defines DOH as the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company’s payroll. I was indeed, HR and payroll confirmed. My bank received checks from them every week. Also, the day a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. My initial operating training was NOT when I completed my sim checkride! By that definition, you're telling me my IOE was when I begain initial operational training for the CRJ? No way, the FAA would never sign off on that. My initial operating training was on my class date. I did the indoc, systems, etc. like everyone else. By both definitions, I meet ALPA's date of hire policy.

 

[CptMurf]

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

Aircraft could and were taken based on performance. And ASAs aren't worth the paper their written on. If you don't see or realize this, there's nothing I can do to help.

 

[Flyer1015]

Aircraft could and were taken based on performance. And ASAs aren't worth the paper their written on. If you don't see or realize this, there's nothing I can do to help.

If you don't see or realize that your Saabs are (and will) be gone, and you'd be down to just 60 RJs that would require only 710 pilots to operate, then there's nothing I can do to help.

 

[Flyer1015]

The newest dispute stems from philosophical differences of policy interpretation. The two main disagreements are DOH and the ability to correct pilot data per the policy/protocol agreement. However, it is clearly stated in the P/P agreement that pilot data entries can be updated until the completion of the SLI process. The SLI process has not been completed. And obviously coming in as no surprise, XJs newest dispute and their interpretations favor their own pilots.

 

[CptMurf]

I was compensated. I received $400 a week, from Pinnacle, through their payroll system. I was in their HR and payroll deparment. ALPA's merger policy defines DOH as the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company’s payroll. I was indeed, HR and payroll confirmed. My bank received checks from them every week. Also, the day a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. My initial operating training was NOT when I completed my sim checkride! By that definition, you're telling me my IOE was when I begain initial operational training for the CRJ? No way, the FAA would never sign off on that. My initial operating training was on my class date. I did the indoc, systems, etc. like everyone else. By both definitions, I meet ALPA's date of hire policy.

Were you taxed on the income? FICA, Fed, and State taxes withheld? Did you receive a 1099 or was the income added into you W-2? If you say no to ANY of these, the that money was a reimbursement and therefore not income. My Per Diem checks were written on Mesaba checks too, but not income. Also, there should be an LOA or MOU in your '99 agreement to show how and why those pilots were being paid, since paying them would alter your CBA.

I didn't write or accept your convoluted policies of DOH. Just stating the different sides here.

 

[CptMurf]

If you don't see or realize that your Saabs are (and will) be gone, and you'd be down to just 60 RJs that would require only 710 pilots to operate, then there's nothing I can do to help.

I don't disagree. Haven't in any of my posts. But that does not mean that I agree with a "we saved you" argument. We were down to 49 aircraft not too long ago and came through ok. Still made money, and got awarded new aircraft.

Now to your "we saved you" and "we have an ASA" attitude, I say your brought a large crop of POS aircraft that are on the chopping block and we are all going to feel the pain over the next couple of years as they are removed.

 

[gojo]

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

What do you want to hear? Should I say thank you, and oh-please just let me have a job somewhere. Is that wgat you want?

 

[bri5150]

The newest dispute stems from philosophical differences of policy interpretation. The two main disagreements are DOH and the ability to correct pilot data per the policy/protocol agreement. However, it is clearly stated in the P/P agreement that pilot data entries can be updated until the completion of the SLI process. The SLI process has not been completed. And obviously coming in as no surprise, XJs newest dispute and their interpretations favor their own pilots.

They are doing work to protect some of your pilots too. As I've stated before, I have heard of guys getting taken off the list because they were in a pool somewhere. I have heard of guys all of a sudden showing up on the list. An accurate list will help everyone involved.

As far as union leadership, I am not too worried. Watch this as a little teaser. (not suitable for the workplace or children)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4UeHWPeOrA

 

[FOrever85]

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

Hey genius you ever wonder why you guys were sent to JFK?

Look at what has happened to the last couple of Delta Connections carriers that were sent there. Then tell me how secure your job is?

If you have a crystal ball then please tell us how everything is going to turn out, otherwise STFU!

 

[jynxyjericho]

Hey genius you ever wonder why you guys were sent to JFK?

Look at what has happened to the last couple of Delta Connections carriers that were sent there. Then tell me how secure your job is?

If you have a crystal ball then please tell us how everything is going to turn out, otherwise STFU!

Well look at it this way, if they take away most of the -200's this company will finally be staffed correctly. *shrug*

 

[Carl_Spackler]

There is only one kind of fair. That is the summer festival, usually for a week, where you can eat corn dogs and cotton candy, look at home made quilts and live stock, and go on rides operated by methhead operators.

The other kind of "fair" just doesn't exist.

 

[gojo]

There is only one kind of fair. That is the summer festival, usually for a week, where you can eat corn dogs and cotton candy, look at home made quilts and live stock, and go on rides operated by methhead operators.

The other kind of "fair" just doesn't exist.

That has become painfully obvious

 

[Grinder10]

I was paid $11.25 an hour while in training. Does that mean I can jump up the list using the Mesaba method?

 

[xjhawk]

yes, talk to your union about getting your name moved up their list. I am sure it will not take much time to fix.

 

[xjhawk]

Oh by the way, your DOH is a fixed date. We are not screaming to change ours. Ours was given to us by the company and managed by our union. We do not seem to have an issue with our list. When someone leaves the list, it is changed. We do not changed it according to what others have as their DOH at their company. Maybe there is a company out there that does DOH as their interview date.....does that mean you want to change yours again? I must say again-take a look at what your company says is your DOH and take a look at the ALPA policy for determining your DOH. And when you want fair....take a look at what your union proposed (staple) and ask yourself why fair is okay for you, but not everyone else. Oh and when you are at the fair get a corndog

 

[Flyer1015]

Oh by the way, your DOH is a fixed date. We are not screaming to change ours. Ours was given to us by the company and managed by our union. We do not seem to have an issue with our list. When someone leaves the list, it is changed. We do not changed it according to what others have as their DOH at their company. Maybe there is a company out there that does DOH as their interview date.....does that mean you want to change yours again? I must say again-take a look at what your company says is your DOH and take a look at the ALPA policy for determining your DOH. And when you want fair....take a look at what your union proposed (staple) and ask yourself why fair is okay for you, but not everyone else. Oh and when you are at the fair get a corndog

It is a fixed date. A date that was corrected per letter V of LOA #2. The fixed date has now been our class date.

I ask you, yet again, and any other genius XJ pilot, to answer the following:

Not to mention, in the XJ's attempt to screw over 9E pilots on their seniority, do you realize what the other (impossible) alternative is? The only other alternative would be to align seniority date with sim date of hire. This would mean your sim date DOH would represent your seniority date, regardless of class seniority. This is the new re-alignment that would come if the XJ dispute was awarded. But think about it. The checkrides did not go in order. I went before 3 other older pilots simply because of the way training scheduling worked it out. Under the new method, you'd have to reorder the entire 9E list, and that is not allowed by ALPA bylaws. Not only that, you'd have many people jump over others they are currently junior to, because they took their sim checkride first. For example, I took mine before 3 guys did who are in my class and currently senior to me. If you XJ people want your wish and dispute to come out true, I would have to jump these 3 pilots in seniority and be considered more senior to them because of my "new" seniority being my date of hire on sim check date. This is against merger policy. You are in a catch-22.

The ONLY fair way, without having to go through the illegal mess above, is to accept Letter V and take every pilot's initial pilot newhire class date as their DOH. This is the only fair, clean way that will ensure that nothing gets ugly.

 

[bri5150]

It is a fixed date. A date that was corrected per letter V of LOA #2. The fixed date has now been our class date.

I ask you, yet again, and any other genius XJ pilot, to answer the following:
Not to mention, in the XJ's attempt to screw over 9E pilots on their seniority, do you realize what the other (impossible) alternative is? The only other alternative would be to align seniority date with sim date of hire. This would mean your sim date DOH would represent your seniority date, regardless of class seniority. This is the new re-alignment that would come if the XJ dispute was awarded. But think about it. The checkrides did not go in order. I went before 3 other older pilots simply because of the way training scheduling worked it out. Under the new method, you'd have to reorder the entire 9E list, and that is not allowed by ALPA bylaws. Not only that, you'd have many people jump over others they are currently junior to, because they took their sim checkride first. For example, I took mine before 3 guys did who are in my class and currently senior to me. If you XJ people want your wish and dispute to come out true, I would have to jump these 3 pilots in seniority and be considered more senior to them because of my "new" seniority being my date of hire on sim check date. This is against merger policy. You are in a catch-22.

The ONLY fair way, without having to go through the illegal mess above, is to accept Letter V and take every pilot's initial pilot newhire class date as their DOH. This is the only fair, clean way that will ensure that nothing gets ugly.

The exact same way your category integration puts the jet FO's ahead of prop captains. When you figure that out, let me know I will have your answer.

 

[mesaba13]

Flyer1015

You still have never answered the question of what grand career expectations you had at 9E? Maybe you should a have got a job with a company that hasn't always treated their people like dirt. Why didn't your union fix this pay during training long ago? Maybe that is why ALPA defines DOH as when one is getting paid, do discourage airlines from undercutting other groups with pay for training, or no pay during training, etc.

Years ago when I watched pilots buy jobs at places like Express and Comair someone told me that they were cheating by buying their way ahead of others that did't have the money or simply refused to pay the money. Maybe losing a couple months of Seniority is Karma coming back around

Mesaba union leadership could have caved on this issue of pay during training long ago but did not. Its just another example of something you refuse to admit. Mesaba brings something to this merger in the form of a good contract and works rules.

By the way, I still stand by my statement that if you guys would just admit we bring equal value to the merger than I would have no prbolem with DOH as the first day of class for all at (E.

 

[Flyer1015]

The exact same way your category integration puts the jet FO's ahead of prop captains. When you figure that out, let me know I will have your answer.

Again, 9E proposed alternatives, that INCLUDED the order being jet CA, prop CA, jet FO, prop FO. But Colgan and Mesaba had absolutely ZERO interest in wanting to negotiate anything other than DOH in XJs case and relative in Colgan's case. What you just mentioned is something that 9E tried to address, but basically were ignored.

Flyer1015

You still have never answered the question of what grand career expectations you had at 9E? Maybe you should a have got a job with a company that hasn't always treated their people like dirt. Why didn't your union fix this pay during training long ago? Maybe that is why ALPA defines DOH as when one is getting paid, do discourage airlines from undercutting other groups with pay for training, or no pay during training, etc.

Years ago when I watched pilots buy jobs at places like Express and Comair someone told me that they were cheating by buying their way ahead of others that did't have the money or simply refused to pay the money. Maybe losing a couple months of Seniority is Karma coming back around

I wasn't around at that time when the 99 CBA was voted in. Prior union decisions is not something I could control. I sent a resume to Mesaba, but didn't get called. Pinnacle called right away, and let me pick a class date. Go figure. It's not like I was sitting at the top of a mountain of gold with regionals offering jobs left and right. I applied to several, and who ever called me first is the place I went. Pinnacle was it. Same way I'll do majors in the next few years. Darts will be thrown at pretty much every legacy carrier and UPS/Fdx. Whoever calls first, I'll go. I won't be one of those idiots who "holds out" for just one or two places or no where else. Like how some MEM guys want to go only to FDX and no where else. That is one quick way to become a regional lifer, and I refuse that.

Anyway, to be clear, when I started, I got money from Pinnacle. I commenced training from day 1 of my pilot class date. I filled out all the proper HR and payroll paperwork, and was in the HR/payroll database on the first of my class date. On a monthly basis, I was paid more (ironically), in initial training then first year pay on guarantee!

By the way, I still stand by my statement that if you guys would just admit we bring equal value to the merger than I would have no prbolem with DOH as the first day of class for all at (E.

Nah, I don't believe you bring equal value to the merger. I believe, in net total, by next year you will only bring 60 CRJs that require only ~710 pilots. The rest are unfortunately furlough fodder. At least, that's the analysis that I've seen. :blush: Sorry, but Mesaba's disputing twice against our DOH and intentionally trying to screw 9E pilots out of 2 months seniority has made me not care about XJ or their concerns. I wanted unity and a sense of a happy family, but I think we know that is all gone. I better not see any emails from any union member (especially JM) on topics of unity, strength, one voice, one list, or any other garbage they try and shove down our throat while intentionally stabbing us in the back. Twice.

 

[bri5150]

Again, 9E proposed alternatives, that INCLUDED the order being jet CA, prop CA, jet FO, prop FO. But Colgan and Mesaba had absolutely ZERO interest in wanting to negotiate anything other than DOH in XJs case and relative in Colgan's case. What you just mentioned is something that 9E tried to address, but basically were ignored.



I wasn't around at that time when the 99 CBA was voted in. Prior union decisions is not something I could control. I sent a resume to Mesaba, but didn't get called. Pinnacle called right away, and let me pick a class date. Go figure. It's not like I was sitting at the top of a mountain of gold with regionals offering jobs left and right. I applied to several, and who ever called me first is the place I went. Pinnacle was it. Same way I'll do majors in the next few years. Darts will be thrown at pretty much every legacy carrier and UPS/Fdx. Whoever calls first, I'll go. I won't be one of those idiots who "holds out" for just one or two places or no where else. Like how some MEM guys want to go only to FDX and no where else. That is one quick way to become a regional lifer, and I refuse that.

Anyway, to be clear, when I started, I got money from Pinnacle. I commenced training from day 1 of my pilot class date. I filled out all the proper HR and payroll paperwork, and was in the HR/payroll database on the first of my class date. On a monthly basis, I was paid more (ironically), in initial training then first year pay on guarantee!


Nah, I don't believe you bring equal value to the merger. I believe, in net total, by next year you will only bring 60 CRJs that require only ~710 pilots. The rest are unfortunately furlough fodder. At least, that's the analysis that I've seen. :blush: Sorry, but Mesaba's disputing twice against our DOH and intentionally trying to screw 9E pilots out of 2 months seniority has made me not care about XJ or their concerns. I wanted unity and a sense of a happy family, but I think we know that is all gone. I better not see any emails from any union member (especially JM) on topics of unity, strength, one voice, one list, or any other garbage they try and shove down our throat while intentionally stabbing us in the back. Twice.

Your proposals were ignored (if that's true) because they were so off base (speculation since I am not on the commitee). Which MEC has a better track record with negotiations? 6 years without a contract (Pinnacle), or 1 new contract with rock solid scope that saved our ass (2004), one shamruptcy piece of crap to deal with (that we fully recovered from in 4 years thanks to our negotiations) and now one JCBA (which 9E tried to sabotage)?

If you wanted unity all along, why did you propose stapling all of Colgan behind you and a lot of Mesaba as well? There is more to "value" than how many airplanes you have. Again, how is that raise treating you? In fact, you will probably notice the better contract waaaay more than the 2 or 3 months of seniority that has been disputed. You will also notice that it is now going to be easier for you to upgrade into a 900 in your current 200 base considering you didn't have any based there before. Oh, there are also a lot more 900's (that Delta actually wants) in Pinnacles fleet than before as well. How about safety culture? Should we bring that up again? Sure, that adds value from Mesaba. Heck, just using our name is helping out Colgan apparently (not my opinion, just using the fact that we are using their certificate but changing it to Mesaba).

By the way, I said it before, that email you have is from the first dispute. Pretty sure there isn't a second one because that makes no sense. Mesaba negotiators do what makes sense, not try and plan things that don't make any sense what so ever (ala picketing just before contract completion). IF, and that is a big if, they are disputing a second time (which you have no information about unless another set of emails leaked, or you are a union member posting on a public forum), then there is a good reason for it. Believe it or not, they can see how this looks to Pinnacle pilots and wouldn't want to piss them off just to do it. Again, that doesn't make sense.