Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[bri5150]

The date I have on Flyer's email is before the second dispute btw. It looks like what I have, but doesn't show what Mesaba is disputing this time around. I am sure Mr. Bloch put a quick end to the DOH argument, and I propose we do the same. I am also sure there are a few clerical mistakes on the 9E list that are getting fixed right now. I hope we can have a list soon.

 

[gojo]

gojo, this is entirely separate. Each group, I will argue, fought hard for their own benefit. DOH benefits mostly XJ, relative benefits mostly Colgan, and stat/cat benefits 9E. But those methods could, and have been, poof! Gone. They are not the final award. Only Bloch's decision will be final. That could be anything. Instead, what you have, is two groups trying to now deliberately screw 9E out of seniority, by using definitions of date of hire.

How is this different? Just because the SLI wasn't settled before April 15th doesn't take the sting away. The intent was still there. All I'm saying is, this process is divisive by nature, and the current dispute has the same effect on unity as the others I mentioned.

 

[gojo]

You won't get downgraded or furloughed when the Saabs get parked. That is what you were looking at. How quickly we forget. But I guess in that big head of yours, no raise in your seat is somehow worse than downgrading and taking a pay cut or being out on the street.

You are right about one thing, you shouldn't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure you bunch of arrogant self righteous prima donna's are going to be very disappointed when the dust settles. Your MEC apparently can smell it coming and that is why they are under the table fighting for scraps right now.

All I can say is the last 7 years at Mesaba have been one big roller coster ride, and I'm not that fond of roller coasters. It seems to me that we have spent more time going downhill than uphill. The pros and cons list could be debated from both sides. The one big one many of us lost at Mesaba was the oppertunity to flow up to Delta. And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

 

[bri5150]

And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

I wish I would have thought of that. Someone said it before; we are a proud pilot group that has been through a lot since I have been here. There is no doubt there will be some turbulent times in the coming years with all the airplanes we have together that nobody wants. It just takes higher fuel prices for some kind of bankruptcy to happen and the ASA's get gutted (seen it happen), or if our performance doesn't come up, then they already have the clause to take more 200's away. I am not sure if there is a maximum amount they can take. Heck, Delta could say our numbers aren't good so they are taking all of them for all I know.

 

[Flyer1015]

Not a lawyer but...

V. Pinnacle Pilots’ Date of Hire Correction
A Pinnacle Pilot who is hired prior to February 18, 2011 shall have his date of hire adjusted to the first day such Pilot commenced training, however, the pilot’s longevity date shall not be adjusted.

This does not state for "SLI" or "Travel Benefits" or "Calling 'Shotgun'"

It doesn't, so why are your reps claiming travel bennies only, and not for SLI? Look, it doesn't matter what the DOH is for. All this is saying that our DOH is being corrected to represent the day we started training. This means class date. Now anything associated with DOH on class date is effective, with the exception listed as longevity. That leaves two things: SLI purposes and as a side benefit, travel bennies will have DOH date.

 

[CptMurf]

It doesn't, so why are your reps claiming travel bennies only, and not for SLI? Look, it doesn't matter what the DOH is for. All this is saying that our DOH is being corrected to represent the day we started training.

Thank You.

This means class date. Now anything associated with DOH on class date is effective, with the exception listed as longevity. That leaves two things: SLI purposes and as a side benefit, travel bennies will have DOH date.

That is what is being debated. Bloch will rule what it implies (hopefully soon). And most likely in your favor.


This is a process, just like a court case, it's not personal.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, it is personal. Because XJ's dispute is not using letter V and the potential "confusion" you are implying. XJ's dispute is invoking ALPA's merger policy definition of date of hire. There are two conditions under ALPA merger policy for date of hire. I've already posted that above in this thread, earlier pages. XJ is trying to use that definition to 'prove' we were not fully paid on a company payroll system until our sim checkride DOH.

 

[CptMurf]

I wish I would have thought of that. Someone said it before; we are a proud pilot group that has been through a lot since I have been here. There is no doubt there will be some turbulent times in the coming years with all the airplanes we have together that nobody wants. It just takes higher fuel prices for some kind of bankruptcy to happen and the ASA's get gutted (seen it happen), or if our performance doesn't come up, then they already have the clause to take more 200's away. I am not sure if there is a maximum amount they can take. Heck, Delta could say our numbers aren't good so they are taking all of them for all I know.

I agree. We ALL brought pros and cons into this. The integration should be fair for all, recognize the pros that we each brought, and manage protections to fix or minimize cons. The XJ guys dismiss the "We have an ASA" talk, because we know how quick they can be voided, renegotiated, or ended. We inevitably will be dealing with a -200 reduction down the road. Hopefully we can minimize it with our -900 and Q400 fleet.

 

[Flyer1015]

All I can say is the last 7 years at Mesaba have been one big roller coster ride, and I'm not that fond of roller coasters. It seems to me that we have spent more time going downhill than uphill. The pros and cons list could be debated from both sides. The one big one many of us lost at Mesaba was the oppertunity to flow up to Delta. And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

 

[CptMurf]

Yes, it is personal. Because XJ's dispute is not using letter V and the potential "confusion" you are implying. XJ's dispute is invoking ALPA's merger policy definition of date of hire. There are two conditions under ALPA merger policy for date of hire. I've already posted that above in this thread, earlier pages. XJ is trying to use that definition to 'prove' we were not fully paid on a company payroll system until our sim checkride DOH.

Uhh...You weren't compensated. Most never were, and the others received a stipend. This was the accepted method of DOH when you accepted the job, and one of the reasons I did not try to work there. Your original DOH actually meets the definition in the ALPA policy, and without the LOA, I don't think you would have a leg to stand on in this. You accepted this fact when you took the job.

If the LOA is used to adjust the DOH. So be it. This is up to Bloch. If you believe Higney, then he has already made his decision on it.

It has nothing to do with my point that the 2 definitions are both fair and valid. This is a process of determining which is to be used. It's not personal, nor is it an attack to your seniority. If anything, assuming the LOA is used, there's gain from ALPAs accepted seniority policy.

 

[Flyer1015]

Uhh...You weren't compensated. Most never were, and the others received a stipend. This was the accepted method of DOH when you accepted the job, and one of the reasons I did not try to work there. Your original DOH actually meets the definition in the ALPA policy, and without the LOA, I don't think you would have a leg to stand on in this. You accepted this fact when you took the job.

If the LOA is used to adjust the DOH. So be it. This is up to Bloch. If you believe Higney, then he has already made his decision on it.

It has nothing to do with my point that the 2 definitions are both fair and valid. This is a process of determining which is to be used. It's not personal, nor is it an attack to your seniority. If anything, assuming the LOA is used, there's gain from ALPAs accepted seniority policy.

I was compensated. I received $400 a week, from Pinnacle, through their payroll system. I was in their HR and payroll deparment. ALPA's merger policy defines DOH as the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company’s payroll. I was indeed, HR and payroll confirmed. My bank received checks from them every week. Also, the day a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. My initial operating training was NOT when I completed my sim checkride! By that definition, you're telling me my IOE was when I begain initial operational training for the CRJ? No way, the FAA would never sign off on that. My initial operating training was on my class date. I did the indoc, systems, etc. like everyone else. By both definitions, I meet ALPA's date of hire policy.

 

[CptMurf]

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

Aircraft could and were taken based on performance. And ASAs aren't worth the paper their written on. If you don't see or realize this, there's nothing I can do to help.

 

[Flyer1015]

Aircraft could and were taken based on performance. And ASAs aren't worth the paper their written on. If you don't see or realize this, there's nothing I can do to help.

If you don't see or realize that your Saabs are (and will) be gone, and you'd be down to just 60 RJs that would require only 710 pilots to operate, then there's nothing I can do to help.

 

[Flyer1015]

The newest dispute stems from philosophical differences of policy interpretation. The two main disagreements are DOH and the ability to correct pilot data per the policy/protocol agreement. However, it is clearly stated in the P/P agreement that pilot data entries can be updated until the completion of the SLI process. The SLI process has not been completed. And obviously coming in as no surprise, XJs newest dispute and their interpretations favor their own pilots.

 

[CptMurf]

I was compensated. I received $400 a week, from Pinnacle, through their payroll system. I was in their HR and payroll deparment. ALPA's merger policy defines DOH as the date upon which a pilot first appears upon the Company’s payroll. I was indeed, HR and payroll confirmed. My bank received checks from them every week. Also, the day a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform such duties in airline operations. My initial operating training was NOT when I completed my sim checkride! By that definition, you're telling me my IOE was when I begain initial operational training for the CRJ? No way, the FAA would never sign off on that. My initial operating training was on my class date. I did the indoc, systems, etc. like everyone else. By both definitions, I meet ALPA's date of hire policy.

Were you taxed on the income? FICA, Fed, and State taxes withheld? Did you receive a 1099 or was the income added into you W-2? If you say no to ANY of these, the that money was a reimbursement and therefore not income. My Per Diem checks were written on Mesaba checks too, but not income. Also, there should be an LOA or MOU in your '99 agreement to show how and why those pilots were being paid, since paying them would alter your CBA.

I didn't write or accept your convoluted policies of DOH. Just stating the different sides here.