declaring an emergency

[Flyin Tony]

I've had two. The first was smoke in the CP. We lost the #1 inverter, fried the windshield heat controller and had lightes on everywhere. The second was a windshield failure at FL 350. Neither were any fun. We declared an emergency, and ATC handled us with excellent service and got us on the ground fast.

What do you mean windshield failure did it start to crack or something?

 

[FracCapt]

So you manually put the gear down and roll to the end...keep the power high enough to keep you from stalling but low enough that you can kill it ASAP...

Hmmm....let's see...if you're talking about a FLAP and GEAR failure...chances are you've lost a couple other things as well....like NOSEWHEEL STEERING....and/or GROUND SPOILERS.....and/or MAIN SYSTEM BRAKES...possibly THRUST REVERSERS(depends on model).... Ok, sure thing....just manually lower the gear, forget about the rest, and roll to the end(or beyond the end, since you "forgot" about the rest of the problems that may be associated).

Power high enough to keep you from stalling, but low enough that you can kill it ASAP? Huh? How many aircraft engines do you know of that take a long time to spool down when you pull the throttle(s) to idle? None that I know of....I do know of MANY that are slow to spool UP...but not down..

Like I said before....unless you know the aircraft and its systems intimately, don't cast stones or tell people what they "should do"...

I'll give you "abnormal" but not emergency.

In your Cessnas, there are really only 2 things that would be an emergency to most people....an engine failure and a critical piece of the airplane falling off in flight(structural failure). In one case, you'd likely declare....in the other...well, you'd probably just sh!t your pants on the way to the ground....but in larger, more complex airplanes(remember, most of us are referring to LARGE JETS here), there are many different types of emergencies, and even more types of abnormal situations.

 

[FracCapt]

What do you mean windshield failure did it start to crack or something?

Hmmm....I'm curious about this too. I've never seen nor heard of a windshield completely failing at high altitude. He11, I've hit a bird(only 3-4lbs though) at 320KIAS, dead center on the co-pilots windshield....and he said it "really flexed", but it didn't break nor crack. Of course, the windshield was scrap after that....but it held up.

 

[minitour]

...
Like I said before....unless you know the aircraft and its systems intimately, don't cast stones or tell people what they "should do"...

......in larger, more complex airplanes(remember, most of us are referring to LARGE JETS here), there are many different types of emergencies, and even more types of abnormal situations.

...and lilke I said in my edits...you were right...I have no problem admitting that I was wrong...but then you have to go and lecture me on it......again...

and you'll have to forgive me for just starting....I didn't have enough cash to do my private in a DC9....sorry

-mini

*edit*
I would like to know though...if all of this were to happen (when in fact the first scenario was just no flaps) what would you do? So you've lost everything...so tell me now how do you deal with that situation.

Declaring an emergency is great...but that doesn't stop you from rolling once you're on the ground.

If you've lost your nosewheel steering, reversers, ground spoilers, brakes, etc...what exactly do you do to prevent yourself from rolling through the end?

 

[FracCapt]

...and lilke I said in my edits...you were right...I have no problem admitting that I was wrong...but then you have to go and lecture me on it......again...

and you'll have to forgive me for just starting....I didn't have enough cash to do my private in a DC9....sorry

You stated that if you were "in a 74 with no flaps" you'd declare...but I was restating my point on the original issue since it didn't appear to me that you got it....maybe you did, and just put on an act to look cool(sort of like the DC9 comment) - I don't know..

I would like to know though...if all of this were to happen (when in fact the first scenario was just no flaps) what would you do? So you've lost everything...so tell me now how do you deal with that situation.

Declaring an emergency is great...but that doesn't stop you from rolling once you're on the ground.

If you've lost your nosewheel steering, reversers, ground spoilers, brakes, etc...what exactly do you do to prevent yourself from rolling through the end?

First of all, declaring may not make you magically stop when you're on the ground...but it ensures that the emergency crews are ready and waiting, which could make the difference between surviving and not if the airplane catches fire. Second, it keeps ATC in the loop. I guarantee if you call them and tell them you have no flaps, brakes, etc., and tell them you do NOT want to declare an emergency....THEY will do it for you! YOU don't have to declare...ATC can do it for you.

There should never be a situation where you lose absolutely everything. You may lose steering, ground spoilers, main brakes, maybe even reversers(unless they have an accumulator to allow you to deploy them with no hyd pressure)...but you SHOULD have emergency/standby brakes. On some aircraft, though, the anti-skid doesn't work on the emergency system....so you end up landing going much faster than normal, lighter on the wheels, and without anti-skid....it has all the ingredients for a blown tire(or many), which could cause a loss of control without tiller authority.

If you did, in fact, lose EVERYTHING(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)....well...the type of airplane would dictate your available courses of action. In the airplane I fly, I would probably opt for a gear up landing if the available runways weren't very long. If I had a REALLY long runway, I would probably just shut the engines down on touchdown, and hold the nose off as long as possible for maximum aerodynamic braking. Then the problem is that if you start to veer off the runway...and the rudder isn't effective anymore(below 60-80knots)...you're going off-roading. It all depends on the specific conditions. Not everything is black and white...judgement/experience plays a huge role in such a situation.

 

[minitour]

You stated that if you were "in a 74 with no flaps" you'd declare...but I was restating my point on the original issue since it didn't appear to me that you got it....maybe you did, and just put on an act to look cool(sort of like the DC9 comment) - I don't know...

well the original issue was just "no flaps"...we didn't say anything about no reversers, brakes, etc...thats what you brought

like I said,

I guess the reality is it is a case-by-case basis...

Just like some people consider radio failure an emergency, some don't (even in IMC)...it just depends on what YOU feel at the time is worthy of being considered an emergency...

Great points on the no flap thing...I was wrong.

how many more times do you want me to say "I was wrong"?

-mini

 

[avbug]

If you did, in fact, lose EVERYTHING(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)....well...the type of airplane would dictate your available courses of action. In the airplane I fly, I would probably opt for a gear up landing if the available runways weren't very long.

Well now...that would depend on the airplane and the system. I have experienced that very thing, and no, I didn't opt for a gear up landing.

The airplane came out undamaged, we all walked away.

Had the runways been exceptionally short, I'd have opted to land somewhere else.

 

[JediNein]

This thread is beginning to remind me of a certain war where a Navy pilot with a few enemies on his tail was told "shut up and die like a man."

Hmmm....I'm curious about this too. I've never seen nor heard of a windshield completely failing at high altitude.

A British Airways BAC-111 lost their windshield at relatively high altitude on 6/10/1990. Considering FL180 is half an atmosphere it makes sense windows would fail around this altitude and not higher like FL300.

On a flight from Birmingham, England to Malaga, Spain, at FL 173, a large section of windshield fell away from the aircraft. The decompression pulled the captain out from under his seatbelt. Despite trying to hold onto the yoke, the captain was sucked out into the opening. A steward in the cockpit was able to grab hold of his legs. Another steward was able to strap himself into the vacant seat and aid in holding onto the captain's legs. The copilot wearing full restraints made an emergency landing at Southampton. The captain remained half way out of the aircraft for 15 minutes and suffered only frostbite and some fractures. Improper bolts used to replace the windshield two days earlier resulted in the accident.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[TIS]

AVBUG is quite simply the most dangerous pilot on this board.

That's where you started and went on for many, many words essentially extolling the virtues of your big, comfy chair in the Boeing twins. I would have to disagree that relating actual experiences makes Avbug any more dangerous than anyone else. In fact I think you could argue the exact opposite.

You see Avbug does something else with his free time. He puts out fires – or tries to. I think you’ll agree that SOMEONE has to at least try. So as long as we’re in agreement that the use of firebombers is a necessary evil in the world of aviation, the fact that skilled and experienced pilots are needed to fly those aircraft stands as a direct corollary to that point.

Now, we could have you with the experience, skill, and wisdom that your ultra-safe seat in that Boeing has imparted to you trying your hand at this, probably declaring an emergency because you saw smoke, or we can have someone who can ad lib a bit when the situation demands it.

To call him the most dangerous pilot on this board because he does things that his job DEMANDS of him as a professional pilot is positively absurd and fails to recognize the possibility that some jobs have requirements other than sipping coffee that’s too hot, eating food that’s too cold, reading newspapers that are too old, and dealing with FAs that are too fat.

The thing about emergencies is that anyone who thinks for even a short time about it will come to the realization that hitting the big red button for just about anything just isn't called for. Unfortunately hitting the panic button is what too many people are taught to do by instructors at all levels. The reality is that if you have a problem and feel that you need the authority and priority that declaring an emergency affords you by all means do it. But I've read some pretty silly stuff written here about why some folks have declared emergencies.

All Avbug has said, in essence, is that he thinks about it before he asks for help and that sometimes there’s either no time to have a nice rational discussion with about what’s going on with your plane, or there’s no one to talk to about it – period.

And you call him, “The most dangerous pilot on this board,” for relating a little of his reality to the rest of us. I think you’re out of line!

TIS

 

[FracCapt]

well the original issue was just "no flaps"...we didn't say anything about no reversers, brakes, etc...thats what you brought

Ok...my last post on the subject....here goes....I'll be as clear as possible this time....if the flaps aren't working....what else might have failed? Could it be part of a bigger problem, or just the flaps? In most airplanes, you can't be sure unless you get a flap assymetry warning.

 

[FracCapt]

Well now...that would depend on the airplane and the system. I have experienced that very thing, and no, I didn't opt for a gear up landing.

As I stated originally, it would depend on the specific airplane. I also stated that I would probably opt for a gear up in the airplane that I fly if the runways weren't very long.

What type of airplane did this occur in? What happened? Most aircraft have such redundancy that this is not supposed to be possible...but I'm sure it's happened more times than we all know.

Had the runways been exceptionally short, I'd have opted to land somewhere else.

I thought you, of all people, would realize that that may not always be an option. Of course, I'm not going to land at my original destination if it's a 5,000ft strip and there's a 15,000 runway with CAVU 10 miles away.

 

[350DRIVER]

avbug, a dangerous pilot?. I guess I must be just as dangerous if not more so than he is since I am in agreement with most of what he states on this board. Someone with as many years in the industry and with as much vast experience as he has doesn't remain alive by being "dangerous".

3 5 0

 

[Sctt@NJA]

*cough* suck up *cough*

 

[501261]

If you did, in fact, lose EVERYTHING(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)....well...the type of airplane would dictate your available courses of action. In the airplane I fly, I would probably opt for a gear up landing if the available runways weren't very long.

Well now...that would depend on the airplane and the system. I have experienced that very thing, and no, I didn't opt for a gear up landing.

The airplane came out undamaged, we all walked away.

Had the runways been exceptionally short, I'd have opted to land somewhere else.

I too am a little curious about this statement. Just what kind of airplane did this happen in? Most airplanes that have all of these components“(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)” have sufficient redundancy to not have them all fail at the same time.

In the Lear for instance (a jet that Avbug has experience in), the steering is electric, there’s nitrogen for the emergency brakes, spoilers and flaps are hydraulic, and the T/R’s have an accumulator. So just how did you lose all these independent systems?

It’s not that I’m doubting you, I’m just curious as to how all the primary, and backup systems to “(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)” can all fail. It would certainly make for a good discussion.

 

[avbug]

PB4Y-2. Typical of most aircraft of it's era. One hydraulic system, one hyrdaulic source. Blow one actuator, lose everything. Tank doors, flaps, gear. No steering; that's what the brakes are for. Won't track straight, with a free-castering wheel with a forward can't. Lose the brakes on landing, ball it up. No backup systems. Most aircraft of that era worked the same way.

I've already provided the details of that event.

 

[501261]

PB4Y-2. Typical of most aircraft of it's era. One hydraulic system, one hyrdaulic source. Blow one actuator, lose everything. Tank doors, flaps, gear. No steering; that's what the brakes are for. Won't track straight, with a free-castering wheel with a forward can't. Lose the brakes on landing, ball it up. No backup systems. Most aircraft of that era worked the same way.

I've already provided the details of that event.

Funny I didn't realize a PBY4 had T/R's and Spoilers.....jk

You did afterall say

I have experienced that very thing, and no, I didn't opt for a gear up landing..

to losing

(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)....

I was just trying to figure out a way for an airplane with T/R's and spoilers to lose everything.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Funny I didn't realize a PBY4 had T/R's and Spoilers.....jk

You did afterall say to losing I was just trying to figure out a way for an airplane with T/R's and spoilers to lose everything.

Lots of air carrier stuff could in theory lose everything, You would be having a very bad day if it happened and it would probably take some extreme event to cause it (Ie. impact or structural failure in a major component) Boeing for instance uses a triple hydraulic system with manual backups to that, BUT all the hydraulic systems and resevoirs are located and routed through the main landing gear bay, so in theory a tire coming apart hard and throwing debris could take out enough to purge the entire system of fluid. When you train a full manual reversion in the sim you are down to a-holes and elbows with a heavy stick, manual gear extention, no flaps, spoilers, speedbrakes, T/R's, and depending on the plane, no rudder(it just trails in the slipstream with no hyd pressure) and that is if you have a triple failure and still have the emergency resevoirs for the manual stuff. You did have slats, simply because they would fall out under gravity once you released the pressure.

I wish I could give more detail but it has been 3 years and 2 aircraft Initials since my furlough and the systems are starting to dump for more current information.

 

[avbug]

I stuck my hand out the crew hatch in the forward cabin once (curiosity about the theoretically non-existent boundary layer and low pressure over the cockpit in that location got the better of me) in cruise. That might be a spoiler. It spoiled my hand.

If the aircraft had spoilers, they would have been on the same system. If it helps any, the P2 had one resorvoir and two systems, and had spoilers, and had reverse (though hydraulics has nothing to do with the reverse).

One might go so far as to suppose that the gear was a spoiler, and it was. Then again, so was a prop that refused to feather...it could spoil your whole day.

Or what was left of it...

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I too am a little curious about this statement. Just what kind of airplane did this happen in? Most airplanes that have all of these components“(steering, all brakes, T/R's, ground spoilers, flaps, etc)” have sufficient redundancy to not have them all fail at the same time.

I believe the poster of this scenario is a good old Hawker pilot. There are some accumulators that should provide emergency (well, you know, abnormality) hydrolic power for various systems but all those listed items run on a single hydrolic system.

 

[dash8driver]

Lots of air carrier stuff could in theory lose everything, You would be having a very bad day if it happened and it would probably take some extreme event to cause it (Ie. impact or structural failure in a major component) Boeing for instance uses a triple hydraulic system

UAL 232...