DALPA Rep Says no go to merger....

[f9driver]

I have no idea, although I believe some of the NWA pilots on this board could have easily flunked the psych eval at Delta......they actually believe they deserve DOH at Delta and at NASA....? I hear the DC9 cockpit is a lot like the Russian Sputnik too.

Bye Bye--General Lee

G. Lee, you are living proof an overly ambitious psycopath can get work in this business. You are more "puffed" up then P. Diddy. One of the "it's all about me generation" that escaped service to anything or anyone but yourself. I would hate to work for/with you if I was a NWA'er.

 

[brainhurts]

The basis of the miscalculation is unearthed. It's not a starting position. Think of it as an option to be explored. If you prefer your stand alone option go for it. No hard feelings.

If you think that was an opening wish list from where we can begin to negotiate towards the middle from your wish list, you are sadly mistaken.

I am not sure of your background. I am also in real estate. I buy and hold. I do not think that either group was really insulted by a "non starter" initial proposal. Like you said--no hard feelings. There will be a middle ground. Again, just a guess.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

Arguing a counterpoint here is like discussing alternative faiths with Islamic fundamentalists. Good thing it will be decided by more reasoned voices on either side...

What reasoned voices would those be on the NWA side.

What makes you all believe that DAL, RA and their ALPA will come back and even take a meeting with NWALPA at this point?

NWALPA basically comes in and dictates surrender terms at the Palace Hotel meeting in NYC after DALPA used a reasoned approach to the talks. Then their revisionists come on this board and try to spin sell that notion that what really happened was that it was their "opener" that was given.

There is no more room for negotiating on either MEC's side. Both were quickly painted in their corners by their pilots when the details were made public.
That leaves arbitration. Probably what NWALPA was aiming for in the first place as evident by their actions and history.

RA will more than likely not pull the trigger on a merger if there is arbitration involved. He understands the history of the NWA pilots. He has seen what they are capable of. Why risk labor strife that will make last summers cancellations look miniscule next to the potential uprising.

It's over. Happens all the time. Remember, its just business. Opportunity lost. Move along.

Ed

 

[johnsonrod]

The NWA guys just seem unreasonable with their demands. The industry is going to he!! and there aren't many good merger partners out there. We're talking about moving from a position of mediocrity to a position of strength (as a combined carrier) in the industry.

NWA certainly ain't considered great in any category right now and it won't be going forward - good job maintaining your mediocrity!

 

[jke406]

You sir, are an ass.

You've been at NWA for a few days. Shouldn't you be looking at 1950s-era ops manuals or something?

 

[Occam's Razor]

You've been at NWA for a few days. Shouldn't you be looking at 1950s-era ops manuals or something?

It's been a few days since you've been put in Time Out for excrement like that.

Almost time again, eh?

 

[Sedona16]

And perhaps that is all the merger talks were supposed to accomplish. Placate the investors so we can get back to running the company.

When asked if Delta had a "Plan B" ready if the Northwest deal fails, Bastian said, "It's not a Plan B, it's a Plan A -- that's our standalone option."​

Perhaps this is management's desired outcome. Delta didn't want a merger with US Air and the entire company, including the pilots rallied behind the effort to "Keep Delta My Delta". Once again the pilots have helped keep Delta a stand alone airline. Hopefully this is the best resolution for all involved.

You might be on to something here. RA gets off the hook, showing that he at least made some effort, while at the same time creating more of the "feel good someone cares about our opinion" to the employees. How many times did RA say its got to be good for the employees? Good marketing? Maybe. Just like donating his CEO car to charity or allowing employees to ride around in the new 777 or going back to Grinstein, donating his ten million dollar payout to employee charity. Even if it is marketing it feels a whole lot better than what is going on at most other legacies (think Tilton, Steenland, Parker).

The other reality (and I think management knows this) is that a deal that is already iffy when it comes to government approval is more likely than not to get killed if a bunch of pilots show up in uniform talking to the press and the regulators about the negative aspects. So at the end of the day, RA gives the pilots a chance to work a combined list out. It didnt materialize. I do not think he will try to force a merger if the pilots are not on board. This would kill all the afforementioned good will and probably not get approval from regulators to boot. The best plan now is to move forward with "Plan A", the stand alone plan. For delta pilots sake hopefully it is followed by a lot more 777's, growth, wheeling and dealing with AF for more routes, profit and ultimately wage gains in 2009 for Delta pilots.

An interesting side note. I read an article recently that said China is mulling over the idea of open skies with the US to create more trade/tourism in short order. Not unlike the recent accords with Europe and now Australlia. If this were to happen, expect Delta to be aggressively in the middle of it.

 

[jke406]

An interesting side note. I read an article recently that said China is mulling over the idea of open skies with the US to create more trade/tourism in short order. Not unlike the recent accords with Europe and now Australlia. If this were to happen, expect Delta to be aggressively in the middle of it.

Just what lefties like Rez O. Lenin, PCL128 and other union stooges would like...more interaction with communists.

 

[Noserider76]

Here's just a guess: Both sides in their neutral corners reflecting. A new round will pop up egged on by management. Both sides have showed their starting proposals. Its just good negotating. They will be back. There is too much money on the table. Both sides will agree that the junior guys need to be skrewed more equally. Then a deal can be done.

Is this a negotiating tactic or did they really have a deadline to get this deal done? My unofficial poll of the other employees groups has the overwhelming majority relieved this thing may die. Anyone else?

Bloomberg
Delta Disbands Outside Advisers on Northwest Deal, People Say

By Mary Jane Credeur and Mary Schlangenstein

Feb. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Delta Air Lines Inc. disbanded a group of outside advisers hired to help craft a merger with Northwest Airlines Corp. after the carriers' pilots failed to reach an agreement on meshing seniority lists, people with knowledge of the matter said.

Delta told its dozens of external aides they won't be needed unless the pilots resolve their differences, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the talks are private. The advisers had been on call around the clock last week because the airlines thought a pilots' accord and completion of the merger were imminent, one of the people said.

Merger planners at the two carriers suspended daily phone meetings a week ago, after the pilots broke off their seniority talks, the people said. A combination of Delta and Northwest would form the world's largest airline, overtaking AMR Corp.'s American Airlines.

``There's an aura of doubt around this deal now, a creeping malaise,'' said Stuart Klaskin of KKC Aviation Consulting Inc. in Miami, who has worked on past airline mergers.

Delta must have a deal that protects pilots' seniority, Chief Financial Officer Ed Bastian told reporters in Seattle today. ``If we can't get those assurances, we won't'' enter into a merger, he said.

Shares Fall

Shares of Delta, the third-biggest U.S. airline by traffic, and No. 5 Northwest have dropped more than 20 percent since Feb. 20 on concern that a merger is in jeopardy.

Seniority is one of the key remaining issues for the airlines, who have agreed that the combined carrier will retain the Delta name, be based at its Atlanta headquarters, and be run by Delta Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson, people familiar with the discussions have said.

Spokeswomen for Delta and Eagan, Minnesota-based Northwest declined to comment. Delta pilots spokeswoman Kelly Regus declined to comment, and Matt Coons, a spokesman for the Northwest pilots' union, didn't return calls.

The disbanding of Delta's advisers may be part of a strategy to pressure pilots by suggesting a merger might not happen, said Roger King, a debt analyst at CreditSights Inc. in New York. Management has agreed to give the pilots a pay package and equity stake valued at $2 billion, people familiar with the matter said earlier this week.

`Biggest Bluff'

``The biggest bluff to call is to go ahead and do a definitive merger and deal with the seniority list later,'' King said. ``Walking away and taking the money off the table is the next best thing.''

Seniority determines job provisions ranging from compensation to the planes pilots fly. Hundreds of Delta pilots took early retirement before the carrier's 2005 bankruptcy filing to get lump-sum pension payouts, leaving Delta with a less-senior pilot workforce.

Leaders of Northwest's chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association ended a two-day meeting on Feb. 22 without voting on a report on ``cooperative merger exploration,'' according to the union's Web site. No new talks have been scheduled, four people familiar with the matter said earlier this week.

Northwest union negotiators want their 5,000 pilots' seniority to be based on hire date, while Delta's ALPA chiefs want consideration of the plane sizes and routes now flown by that airline's 7,000 pilots. ALPA is the only major unionized group at Delta.

Delta fell 74 cents to $13.35 at 402 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading, the third straight daily decline of more than 5 percent. Northwest slid 57 cents, or 4.1 percent, to $13.43. It's fallen six of the past seven days.

 

[Superpilot92]

Boooring!!:erm:

 

[PCL_128]

Just what lefties like Rez O. Lenin, PCL128 and other union stooges would like...more interaction with communists.

Actually, us "lefties" hate open-skies and want nothing to do with increased trade with China. It's your anti-worker buddies up at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave that are all about being friends with the red Chinese. The only time a Republican is against a trade agreement is when he's trying to buy votes from the Cuban community in South Florida.

 

[FDJ2]

Good thing it will be decided by more reasoned voices on either side...

If there were reasoned voices on both sides at the SLI Merger Committee meetings this issue would have been put to rest over a week ago. Unfortunately one MEC sent a Jurrasic committee with a perfect record of 26 arbitrations and 0 negotiated results to NYC. The end result was predictable from day one.

Premium paid positions (330/767 or above rates)brought to merger

DAL: 4100

NWA: 1355

I understand that the difference in retirement numbers is about 29 in the next 5 years, peaking at about 580 ten years from now.

So why aren't we talking about the extra 2900 premium paid jobs the Delta pilots are bringing instead of an average difference in retirement of 60/year over the next 10 years?

Why aren't we talking of the scheduled mainline airframes DAL is bringing this year instead of the airframe retirements NWA is bringing?

Perhaps because the Delta pilots didn't show up to quibble, whereas a certain committee did.

It's not arrogant to give someone equal value for his position on his list as you give to your position on yours.

 

[Fly4hire]

Premium paid positions (330/767 or above rates)brought to merger

DAL: 4100

NWA: 1355

It's not arrogant to give someone equal value for his position on his list as you give to your position on yours.

Well, it appears we can't even agree on the definition of apples and oranges let alone, compare apples to apples.

Reality check - breakout the 757's from the 767 and you lose about 100 WB's staffed at what per acft? Oh yeah a 757 is a WB - not (hint - 1. count the aisles, 2. does it need augmented crews). And $10/hr more than we pay does not make it one. Subtract ~ 1400 from your side.

Add the 68 (options will be exercised, front of the line) 787's that will be double or even triple crewed and it results in a minimum of 2000 positions.

Most of our pilots are also retiring at 60 - right now, so the retirement numbers are skewed in our favor as well.

But whatever, I don't expect to convince wankers like you anyways. Too bad Moak is going to blow what could be such a golden opportunity.....

 

[120% Torque]

Sorry but you are high if you think you can negotiate based upon:

"options will be exercised"

and

"Most of our pilots are also retiring at 60"

Its kind of like management promising future growth for low wages now. I would expect a skywest newbie to bite but most will know better. Nice try though.

 

[Tref]

It appears you have issues.

Do you think that someday my issues will be as big and important as yours? I can dream, can't I?

 

[Superpilot92]

Sorry but you are high if you think you can negotiate based upon:

"options will be exercised"

and

"Most of our pilots are also retiring at 60"

Its kind of like management promising future growth for low wages now. I would expect a skywest newbie to bite but most will know better. Nice try though.

Oh you mean like you being "high" thinking you know whats going on in this whole deal 98.5% of us on this site have NO idea whats really going on or what WILL happen in regards to the merger. nice try though

 

[FDJ2]

Well, it appears we can't even agree on the definition of apples and oranges let alone, compare apples to apples.

Reality check - breakout the 757's from the 767 and you lose about 100 WB's staffed at what per acft?

I thought I was referring to premium paying positions. Our 757 pay is about the same as your 330, your 757 rate is about the same as our Mad Dog.

We are talking about equities brought to the merger aren't we? Get you 757 rates up to ours and we can then give them the same equity value.


Add the 68 (options will be exercised, front of the line) 787's that will be double or even triple crewed and it results in a minimum of 2000 positions.

Oh, so we should count options too? What do they pay, DAL 757 rates? What are the scheduled delivery dates of those 68 options. How many aircraft retirements will you experience in that same time period?

Most of our pilots are also retiring at 60 - right now, so the retirement numbers are skewed in our favor as well.

Oh, so we should determine what someone might or might not do. If he retires early do you have more retirements or less down the road?

But whatever, I don't expect to convince wankers like you anyways. Too bad Moak is going to blow what could be such a golden opportunity.....

Too funny. Moak and the Delta pilots created the opportunity. You're just playing catch up with the concept. That's o.k., but don't take too long to wrap your heads around it, the opportunity doesn't have a long shelf life.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to quibble, but if you insist on focussing on only one issue and never address the others we wont have an agreement.

We approached this from a desire to avoid this type of quibbling. Our opener was not an end zone dance from which we start giving to reach a negotiated result.

If this doesn't work out, fine, time to move on. No hard feelings.

 

[Diesel-9]

Its not how much you make. Its how much you save.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Choices

Right now we have a choice. We can come at this like businessmen and share in the benefits of a 1.5 to 2.0 Billion package for our cooperation while still putting the entire deal up for membership ratification ~ or ~ one fine spring day we can learn about a merger over the radio on the way to work and fight with each other while recieving nothing.

The Delta MEC deserves a huge amount of credit for getting management to the table with substantial pay restoration.

While we all might be beathing a collective sigh of relief, the storm clouds of consolidation remain. At $100+ a barrell can our companies afford to obtain the new airplanes needed to be competitive in the future? Do our route systems make sense, using RJ's to raid each other's hubs?

We have a unique opportunity to vote on a merger. Right now none of us even know what the deal is because nobody is going to release anything in writing until it is in fact an tentative agreement.

I doubt mergers have gone away. Right now pilots have a choice - as a profession I hope we do not squander this unique position.

 

[Noserider76]

If there were reasoned voices on both sides at the SLI Merger Committee meetings this issue would have been put to rest over a week ago. Unfortunately one MEC sent a Jurrasic committee with a perfect record of 26 arbitrations and 0 negotiated results to NYC. The end result was predictable from day one.

Premium paid positions (330/767 or above rates)brought to merger

DAL: 4100

NWA: 1355

I understand that the difference in retirement numbers is about 29 in the next 5 years, peaking at about 580 ten years from now.

So why aren't we talking about the extra 2900 premium paid jobs the Delta pilots are bringing instead of an average difference in retirement of 60/year over the next 10 years?

Why aren't we talking of the scheduled mainline airframes DAL is bringing this year instead of the airframe retirements NWA is bringing?

Perhaps because the Delta pilots didn't show up to quibble, whereas a certain committee did.

It's not arrogant to give someone equal value for his position on his list as you give to your position on yours.

Spot on once again. We're dealing with a very angry group for the most part. Not sure if we need any of that here. Hopefully we have a choice.

No matter what you say, they'll say "our seniority is not for sale" So I guess ours is? The DL relative seniority deal on the table will have many of us stagnating for years in our bases unless we're willing to commute to the DC-9. At $125/hr it's not much more than my beaten down rate is now. I don't want any part of it.