DAL, Why Vote No???

[FDJ2]

Where's our buddy FDJ in all this?

Nu

I'm here, in the lurk mode.

Our MEC's have done their job, now it's up to the membership at DALPA and NALPA to either endorse it or send it back.

Sometimes it's just best to just sit quietly and let everyone come to their own conclusions without potentially enciting one side or the other.

 

[Superpilot92]

Well, 76 seater's are now effectively capped on the NWA side with the JPWA, so there is only so much revenue they are going to contribute. The 50 seater's are toast, and even if they have better costs, still only carry 50 pax, are frequently weight limited, and cancel with regularity due to staffing shortages.

Managements are also getting fed up with the endless delays caused by too many RJ's flying into the likes if LGA, EWR, JFK, etc. - it still takes up the same amount of space in the ATC system.



There is a niche for this aircraft that there is nothing else that fills for the *moment*, and despite the supposed economics of the 76 seater, however pax still hate the cabins, and management is growing weary of the the feeder operation reliability and quality issues.

The DC9 (and MD80's) will be the first to go, however I think reports of there their death are premature. Also consider there are alternatives for the 142 seat MD's now (A319/320, 737NG), where there is nothing for the 100-124 seat DC9 market. Despite your infatuation with the 76 seater, they are an inferior product from every perspective other than SJS.

I've been wrong before (once ), but I'll wager the DC9's are around until a suitable, true NB cabin, mainline operated NG 100 seat replacement is deployed.

I agree and with some airlines on the verge of going TU there may be a number of airbuses on the market very soon. The new dal may be able to get some cheap buses in the near term. Who knows.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm here, in the lurk mode.

Our MEC's have done their job, now it's up to the membership at DALPA and NALPA to either endorse it or send it back.

Sometimes it's just best to just sit quietly and let everyone come to their own conclusions without potentially enciting one side or the other.

S'ok, I know you can't "officially" comment.

Funny how the spin machine grows quiet when it's your OWN villagers with torches and pitchforks banging at the gates.

Nu

 

[ChoadSnazz]

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

I count a total of 4 greenbook DC-9 captains system-wide. That's all.

 

[General Lee]

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

I count a total of 4 greenbook DC-9 captains system-wide. That's all.

So I was right? Thanks.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ChoadSnazz]

So I was right? Thanks.


Bye Bye---General Lee

No, I doubt that you were. Here's what you said:

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

Based on the seniority numbers of those 4, I would be surprised if they hadn't spent some time in the right seat of the 757 or A-320, maybe even the 747-400.

...But then since you are "sure," you must have some inside information that's not available to me as a NWA pilot.

 

[General Lee]

No, I doubt that you were. Here's what you said:

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

Based on the seniority numbers of those 4, I would be surprised if they hadn't spent some time in the right seat of the 757 or A-320, maybe even the 747-400.

...But then since you are "sure," you must have some inside information that's not available to me as a NWA pilot.

So, in other words, you DON'T KNOW. You would be "surprised" if they hadn't spent time in the other seats. Hey, you said it yourself, you are a NWA pilot. Call them up, give them an FMS quiz. You will find out right quick.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

.....................

 

[Occam's Razor]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

 

[Bluto]

(best nickname: "Dal Qaeda")

I'm so glad we're dealing with this like adults.

 

[FDJ2]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

Have another drink.:laugh:

 

[Occam's Razor]

I'm so glad we're dealing with this like adults.

I heard that from a DAL B777 captain! It's what he was calling the dweebs considering a "no" vote on the T.A. to "gain leverage on the SLI".

 

[Occam's Razor]

Have another drink.:laugh:

I hear the keypad on your cellphone chirping...

 

[clippyrip]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

I hope we both say yes but that would be very ironic if it played out that way.

 

[Superpilot92]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

That would be irony.

I feel it will pass on both sides as most people can see the Forest through the trees with this deal. Its coming one way or the other so its best we are all on the same page DAY 1 so we can build this airline together.

For you pessimists out there on both sides, Que the kum ba ya music :beer:

 

[Occam's Razor]

Look, don't misunderstand my post. I think our group passes the T.A. by at least 4-to-1...and the DAL guys do so at 2-to-1...but it was entertaining to noodle through scenarios that resulted in a bit of role-reversal.

 

[Superpilot92]

Look, don't misunderstand my post. I think our group passes the T.A. by at least 4-to-1...and the DAL guys do so at 2-to-1...but it was entertaining to noodle through scenarios that resulted in a bit of role-reversal.

Agreed 100%. I think i misworded my post, it was directed at the "NO" voters

 

[Noserider76]

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

Unfortunately there's very little "up" from Letter 19 in the JPWA for you to bring us up to. Whether it's fact or not, Letter 19 was seen as a stepping stone, then we would all get significant increases with the joint contract. Many here see minimal raises, codeshares out the ying-yang, and the same crappy scope locked in for a long time if this is voted in.

The sense is that we had the leverage to make some serious changes but we blinked under the current economic threats, and settled for not really that much. We may never have the leverage we have now with management again. For many here there seems very little to be excited about in this deal but the group in general is very supportive of the MEC and I'd be surprised if it didn't pass.

 

[Superpilot92]

Unfortunately there's very little "up" from Letter 19 in the JPWA for you to bring us up to. Whether it's fact or not, Letter 19 was seen as a stepping stone, then we would all get significant increases with the joint contract. Many here see minimal raises, codeshares out the ying-yang, and the same crappy scope locked in for a long time if this is voted in.

The sense is that we had the leverage to make some serious changes but we blinked under the current economic threats, and settled for not really that much. We may never have the leverage we have now with management again. For many here there seems very little to be excited about in this deal.

I understand your concern but there are things for all of us to look forward to in this new combined airline. This is really going to be a viable company for us all. Lots of new planes coming from both sides and lots of cash for the company to dig in with. Considering the economy, state of the industry, and fuel i think we are ALL going to come out of this sitting pretty. The key thing is this allows us to stand together as a single pilot group and build up the warchest so when talks to come up about the next contract we do get big pay raises while also being probably the worlds largest airline and pilot group.

We have talented MEC members working on our behalves to get this done and get a "fair" SLI put out so we can move forward.

Bottom line is it could be alot worse, just look around the rest of the industry.

 

[Noserider76]

Bottom line is it could be alot worse, just look around the rest of the industry.

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I've been around a while and every time they want something they paint the rosy picture. It never turns out as rosy after the vote. Maybe this time will be different.

Do you know how many, if any, DC-9-30s were in the NW plan? Just heard today that the -30s are toast and the -40s and -50s will be around a few more years. Also heard we'll have 100 less RJs flying the system by the end of the year. We've seen the effort to remove them but I'd never heard the total number.

 

[Superpilot92]

I appreciate your enthusiasm but I've been around a while and every time they want something they paint the rosy picture. It never turns out as rosy after the vote. Maybe this time will be different.

Do you know how many, if any, DC-9-30s were in the NW plan? Just heard today that the -30s are toast and the -40s and -50s will be around a few more years.

See you do have a little NWA left in you!! It will be 20 DC9 30's and 41 DC9 40's and 50s. I am almost certain 34 of those 41 are -50's.

 

[Superpilot92]

here you go

2008 to 61 aircraft (20 DC9-30s and 41 DC9-40s/50s) by year-end.(34 of the 41 are DC9-50's)

 

[FDJ2]

I hear the keypad on your cellphone chirping...

Cell phones off.

I told you back in April DALPA was committed to a joint contract with parity before DCC. I posted the resolution, which you and others mocked. I remember your skepticism and questioning of the order of events, contract first or SLI. I told you why the contract had to come first. If I remember correctly, you were busy at the time watching our feet.

We've got the joint contract TA with a date certain SLI before corporate closure. The votes aren't cast yet, so how about you knock it off with imaginary scenarios and avoid possibly poisoning the well. Every vote counts and I don't share your optimism that this is a done deal. You'll have plenty of time to let us know how smart and witty you are later, I'll even laugh at your jokes when you buy the beer.

 

[Noserider76]

here you go

2008 to 61 aircraft (20 DC9-30s and 41 DC9-40s/50s) by year-end

Thanks. Latest news has those 20 -30s gone and the remaining -40s/50s around through 2012. Again, it's before the vote and all bets are off when they get what they want.

 

[Superpilot92]

Thanks. Latest news has those 20 -30s gone and the remaining -40s/50s around through 2012.

I have heard the same but if it ends up true its a DAL move not a NWA move because our fleet forecast is 61 remaining DC9s. If that is a DAL move it would also have to be after DCC. Hopefully DAL has plans to replace that capacity with either 737's or the md90 rumor. We shall see

Cautiously optimistic

 

[Meiguy]

I have heard the same but if it ends up true its a DAL move not a NWA move because our fleet forecast is 61 remaining DC9s. If that is a DAL move it would also have to be after DCC. Hopefully DAL has plans to replace that capacity with either 737's or the md90 rumor. We shall see

Cautiously optimistic

Not sure that fleet forecasts mean a whole lot in this day and age. Forecasts as of lately are being thrown out the window. Whether a DAL move or a NWA move the result will be the same. Hope we get a replacement.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Instead of "hoping" flying remains at mainline you need to be talking to your Reps about getting Compass stapled on the list. That is a known step in the right direction that will add 36 airframes to the mainline list. As important, it adds a type to the mainline list that is a fleet of larger airplanes which are direct replacements for the DC9.

Hope is nice. We need action. We have pay rates for this airplane, we could operate it across Certificates, we could operate it across contracts if we had to.

We can increase mainline flying.

 

[PuffDriver]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

I knew you guys would do everything you could to screw us over. We won't put up with it. Before you do that, we will burn this house down. BOB. We'll do the trio for Leo. Waaahhhhhh!!!! Waaaahhhhhh!!!!

<sniff> There, I feel better.

Save your petty slams. We were right, your guys were wrong. WE did the right thing, as we always do. You guys fought amongst yourselves, as you always do.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

One can't help but see the train wreck coming.

What are the odds that one side will furlough before entering binding arbitration. Once the arbitration starts, it is guaranteed that the stronger side (anyone want to guess who that will be?) will point out to the arbitrator that the furloughees do not bring jobs to the table.

Wonder who will be wearing yellow lanyards first.

 

[PuffDriver]

One can't help but see the train wreck coming.

What are the odds that one side will furlough before entering binding arbitration. Once the arbitration starts, it is guaranteed that the stronger side (anyone want to guess who that will be?) will point out to the arbitrator that the furloughees do not bring jobs to the table.

Wonder who will be wearing yellow lanyards first.

I get it. You have to persontify yourself as Lorenzo, because you have nothing to add to any discussion anywhere. No problem.

Delta will post a profit this quarter, the NWA guys have no reason now for their childish hold-their-breath-until-they-get-their-way antics, the lists will be merged, and it will be Delta SWA AMR as the dominant airlines, with trinkets thrown out for thei regionals. There will be further reductions in light of the coming depression. Your little baby Lorenzo tactics will have nothing to do with the events to unfold, nor anything to do with the leadership at the new Delta. Go away, you've had your 15 minutes.