DAL, Why Vote No???

[Superpilot92]

Fly4Hire:

That just is not true. Each 9 replaced by an RJ adds ~ 4.1 million yearly to the bottom line INCLUDING ACQUISITION COSTS. The only restraint is the lact of a common operating certificate, which will act as a short term fence.Werent you saying recently the dc9-40/50s were just as efficient as the 50 seaters? Especially on short flights? The feed has to come from somewhere and our new scope will limit the number of 70 seaters.

The 76 seat RJ brings in nearly as much revenue, costs much less to operate and is more capable.

I do not understand why you NWA guys are so protective of the DC9. Can anyone explain this irrational behavior? So now its irrational to keep flying at Mainline? Arent you a big supporter of keeping the flying at mainline? WE as the NEW DAL need to do EVERYTHING possible to keep the DC9 flying even if it means replacing the aircraft at mainline.

We all wish that it was sticking around and that our union had not allowed management to outsource the replacement jets, but it is what it is and we have to be realisticRealistically we have scope protection to prevent the parking of all the dc9s and replacing them with 70 seaters unless they are mainline aircraft..

RA has said many times he likes the dc9s and the are much needed aircraft for the 100 seat market that DAL doesnt have. They could have kept the total of dc9s at 58 by years end if they wanted to but instead they changed it to 61 after the merger announcement. Why is that? Could it be that RA wants to keep them as a filler?

We may very well see a new order for 737s to replace them in the future but dont say its irrational to keep that flying. Maybe we will see 717's or Md90s also who knows.

Keep the Flying at Mainline

 

[Superpilot92]

255 Large RJ's. Yes, 2 RJ's can be cheaper while producing greater revenue. I was talking about 50 seat crjs you are talking about 70 Seaters. The 70 seaters arent on the chopping block, however HUNDREDS of 50 seaters are.

PLEASE don't make me search those quotes again from your President and CFO on the replacement for the DC9's, this is getting so old. Every two weeks you guys get back on the DC9 junk again and I've got to find Steenland's posts. Lets just skip this round - OK?

While your at it look up the quote from your President and CEO who states he likes the dc9 and how it will be a great airplane to fill the 100 seat market that DAL needs. Its nice how you state that you want to keep the flying at mainline but you dont care what happens with the DC9 flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Super92:

Huh? I want the DC9 flying to stay at mainline, but I'm realistic about the numbers. About 50% of that flying is going to the RJ's. It is already done. I hope we recapture half of that by getting Compass on the list during SLI.

If we fail (again) to get the flying on our list, then all that will remain is about 25% of what the DC9 does now. What isn't flown by RJ's, or flowed into other current mainline jets is the 14% of domestic capacity coming out of the system. That number will go up if oil prices do not abate.

I agree we need scope. Praying the DC9 somehow remains in service is not the answer. A better answer is required. Since we failed to scope out RJ's, we need to scope them in.

 

[jonjuan]

Can RA wait until 2013?

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazet....html?id=1ab2fbef-eee8-46a2-bec7-6a3e9525af33

Bombardier spreads wings of CSeries

New design aimed at European clients


ROBERT GIBBENS, Freelance

Published: Thursday, July 03
Bombardier Inc. said yesterday it has revised the designs of its CSeries commercial jet family, increasing wingspan, reducing length, improving range and adding the "hot and high" 130XT for shorter and high-altitude runways.
"The changes are part of the normal design process and match what potential clients have told us," said program director Benjamin Boehm. "We've talked design details with potential clients on every continent except Antarctica."

 

[Superpilot92]

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazet....html?id=1ab2fbef-eee8-46a2-bec7-6a3e9525af33

Bombardier spreads wings of CSeries

New design aimed at European clients


ROBERT GIBBENS, Freelance

Published: Thursday, July 03
Bombardier Inc. said yesterday it has revised the designs of its CSeries commercial jet family, increasing wingspan, reducing length, improving range and adding the "hot and high" 130XT for shorter and high-altitude runways.
"The changes are part of the normal design process and match what potential clients have told us," said program director Benjamin Boehm. "We've talked design details with potential clients on every continent except Antarctica."

Lets hope, if we work together we can ensure the flying stays at mainline. Giving more flying away Shouldnt be an option. NWA has already been in talks with Bombardier about the C-series as a mainline replacement for the DC9. That is from the DC9 fleet manager.

 

[Fly4hire]

That just is not true. Each 9 replaced by an RJ adds ~ 4.1 million yearly to the bottom line INCLUDING ACQUISITION COSTS. The only restraint is the lact of a common operating certificate, which will act as a short term fence.

The 76 seat RJ brings in nearly as much revenue, costs much less to operate and is more capable.

Well, 76 seater's are now effectively capped on the NWA side with the JPWA, so there is only so much revenue they are going to contribute. The 50 seater's are toast, and even if they have better costs, still only carry 50 pax, are frequently weight limited, and cancel with regularity due to staffing shortages.

Managements are also getting fed up with the endless delays caused by too many RJ's flying into the likes if LGA, EWR, JFK, etc. - it still takes up the same amount of space in the ATC system.

I do not understand why you NWA guys are so protective of the DC9. Can anyone explain this irrational behavior?

There is a niche for this aircraft that there is nothing else that fills for the *moment*, and despite the supposed economics of the 76 seater, however pax still hate the cabins, and management is growing weary of the the feeder operation reliability and quality issues.

The DC9 (and MD80's) will be the first to go, however I think reports of there their death are premature. Also consider there are alternatives for the 142 seat MD's now (A319/320, 737NG), where there is nothing for the 100-124 seat DC9 market. Despite your infatuation with the 76 seater, they are an inferior product from every perspective other than SJS.

I've been wrong before (once ), but I'll wager the DC9's are around until a suitable, true NB cabin, mainline operated NG 100 seat replacement is deployed.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas F4H,

The problem is that manufacturers don't understand that to replace the -9, you have to build a -9.

The 717 was, no doubt, a great airplane. Too much "guilding the lilly", though.

You don't need fancy avionics. No super-deluxe front end furnishings. Just an airplane that goes when you want it to, over and over again, and ANY A&P with a wrench can fix it.

Cessna has it right. The 172 is still being built because sometimes you just can't improve something that simply works.

The problem is that kid's these days can't handle something like a -9 with 200 hours.

Nu

 

[clippyrip]

The problem is that kid's these days can't handle something like a -9 with 200 hours.

Nu

Going from instructing, to the RJ to the DC9 is tough for those that never flew by RMI. The DC9 is home sweet home for a BE1900 pilot. Shoot, it has an auto pilot...gravy.

 

[General Lee]

Going from instructing, to the RJ to the DC9 is tough for those that never flew by RMI. The DC9 is home sweet home for a be1900 pilot. Shoot, it has an auto pilot...gravy.

Luckily we are trending towards all magic, and away from steam gauges. Those guys may be great at flying the DC9, but an FMS and autorthrottle do save money on gas. It is also tough on guys who have never flown glass and maybe only flown DC9s during their careers. (I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...) I bet they walk into an airbus and have no clue what is going on (same with me though.....).


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MJ42]

Luckily we are trending towards all magic, and away from steam gauges. Those guys may be great at flying the DC9, but an FMS and autorthrottle do save money on gas. It is also tough on guys who have never flown glass and maybe only flown DC9s during their careers. (I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...) I bet they walk into an airbus and have no clue what is going on (same with me though.....).


Bye Bye---General Lee

That's why I think you'll see those senior DC-9 guys retire instead of go to the Airbus as the 9 starts to disappear. One can only hope(from a junior perspective).

 

[FDJ2]

Where's our buddy FDJ in all this?

Nu

I'm here, in the lurk mode.

Our MEC's have done their job, now it's up to the membership at DALPA and NALPA to either endorse it or send it back.

Sometimes it's just best to just sit quietly and let everyone come to their own conclusions without potentially enciting one side or the other.

 

[Superpilot92]

Well, 76 seater's are now effectively capped on the NWA side with the JPWA, so there is only so much revenue they are going to contribute. The 50 seater's are toast, and even if they have better costs, still only carry 50 pax, are frequently weight limited, and cancel with regularity due to staffing shortages.

Managements are also getting fed up with the endless delays caused by too many RJ's flying into the likes if LGA, EWR, JFK, etc. - it still takes up the same amount of space in the ATC system.



There is a niche for this aircraft that there is nothing else that fills for the *moment*, and despite the supposed economics of the 76 seater, however pax still hate the cabins, and management is growing weary of the the feeder operation reliability and quality issues.

The DC9 (and MD80's) will be the first to go, however I think reports of there their death are premature. Also consider there are alternatives for the 142 seat MD's now (A319/320, 737NG), where there is nothing for the 100-124 seat DC9 market. Despite your infatuation with the 76 seater, they are an inferior product from every perspective other than SJS.

I've been wrong before (once ), but I'll wager the DC9's are around until a suitable, true NB cabin, mainline operated NG 100 seat replacement is deployed.

I agree and with some airlines on the verge of going TU there may be a number of airbuses on the market very soon. The new dal may be able to get some cheap buses in the near term. Who knows.

 

[NuGuy]

I'm here, in the lurk mode.

Our MEC's have done their job, now it's up to the membership at DALPA and NALPA to either endorse it or send it back.

Sometimes it's just best to just sit quietly and let everyone come to their own conclusions without potentially enciting one side or the other.

S'ok, I know you can't "officially" comment.

Funny how the spin machine grows quiet when it's your OWN villagers with torches and pitchforks banging at the gates.

Nu

 

[ChoadSnazz]

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

I count a total of 4 greenbook DC-9 captains system-wide. That's all.

 

[General Lee]

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

I count a total of 4 greenbook DC-9 captains system-wide. That's all.

So I was right? Thanks.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ChoadSnazz]

So I was right? Thanks.


Bye Bye---General Lee

No, I doubt that you were. Here's what you said:

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

Based on the seniority numbers of those 4, I would be surprised if they hadn't spent some time in the right seat of the 757 or A-320, maybe even the 747-400.

...But then since you are "sure," you must have some inside information that's not available to me as a NWA pilot.

 

[General Lee]

No, I doubt that you were. Here's what you said:

I am sure there are some greenbooks that are still flying the -9 and only have flown it...

Based on the seniority numbers of those 4, I would be surprised if they hadn't spent some time in the right seat of the 757 or A-320, maybe even the 747-400.

...But then since you are "sure," you must have some inside information that's not available to me as a NWA pilot.

So, in other words, you DON'T KNOW. You would be "surprised" if they hadn't spent time in the other seats. Hey, you said it yourself, you are a NWA pilot. Call them up, give them an FMS quiz. You will find out right quick.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

.....................

 

[Occam's Razor]

Attended the Roadhsow in MSP today...then made a few phone calls.

Managed to piece together a possible scenario if the "No Patrol" (best nickname: "Dal Qaeda") at DAL carries the day on the T.A. vote, and the NWA group ratifies:

DAL management honors the contract the NWA guys approved...but only for them. DAL guys get LOA 19. Apparently, there's enough wiggle-room in both LOA 19 and the JPWA that allows that to happen.

When our DAL brothers approved LOA 19, we were told it was to set the bar...then they'd bring us up.

Thanks!

If we approve the T.A., and you reject...know that we'd only accept the better deal from our new management as part of our effort to set the bar.

We'll bring you up...

...promise.

Still doing some research to see how viable that scenario is, but ya gotta love the irony.

 

[Bluto]

(best nickname: "Dal Qaeda")

I'm so glad we're dealing with this like adults.