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My point was that according to the instructors I talked to, we can't finish our 900 program until we get an airplane to do the required proving runs, etc.

There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....
 
Find it hard to believe that SkyW wont' be getting a piece of the pie considering the contract JA signed with Delta after the ASA purchase.

When SkyWest, Inc. purchased ASA, they were guaranteed something like 40 additional growth aircraft. All but 8 of those aircraft were delivered to SkyWest Airlines (the 8 were delivered to ASA).

So as far as Delta is concerned, they have satisfied their end of the agreement. I'm sure they would like to keep all future flying away from SkyWest, Inc. as they already control about 55% of all DCI flying!
 
I think the bigger problem is the senior pilot group. Look at the pilot groups that are growing and the pilot groups that are shrinking. The growing ones, contract and pay aside, have relatively junior pilot groups. The shrinking ones have senior pilot groups... ASA, Comair, AE, Horizon.

I truly believe that ASA could have "settled" for the cheapest pilot contract in history, undercutting even Mesa, and we'd still be in the same position. The problem is the upper end of the payscale is expensive regardless of whether you pay $85/hr or $104.

That's true...but if we had settled earlier I believe we would have the original 900s that were transferred to Skywest.

In addition, the higher pay and better workrules results in more people staying which compounds the longevity cost factor.

The only way to solve that is through "brand scope"....ALPA missed the ball on that however....Too late now....

ASA won't go away....but it will get smaller.....
 
There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....

One could argue that those aircraft were always going to SkyWest Airlines and they just put on a good show to scare us into dropping our demands. ASA at that time was one of the worst performing airlines in the country... it would be foolish to award new airplanes to an airline in that state. Or, maybe Jerry was trying to "stack the deck" at SkyWest Airlines with a bunch of first year pilots that would be sure "no" votes on the ALPA drive. Who knows really.

However, none of us can go back in time and change what happened. I personally am not a fan of the "get the aircraft on the property and get the pay rates later" plan that most regionals are following. It's been proven over and over again that if you don't play ball, the airplanes can leave just as easily as they came.
 
There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....


Bulls****.....what crack are you smokin? You're drinkin the same skywest koolaid. Jeesus Christ. We stood and protected your job while you believe that the company has OUR best interests in mind. Period. Pay me a respectable wage, I'll fly a respectable airplane. I, along with most of the pilot group feel the same way. Its MY and OUR career and profession, not YOUR job. Point is, its a d**** airplane, whether its your ATR or my CRJ. It all operates the same way. Money. We're never going to grow airplane wise, we're going to grown ASM wise. Net zero airplane gain, or even a minor aircraft loss, to gain 900's. Let them take us apart.......we can go down knowing that we stood for something. Look at comair. Have some self respect man.
 
My point was that according to the instructors I talked to, we can't finish our 900 program until we get an airplane to do the required proving runs, etc.

1. The airplanes are coming in the first quarter after the merger is approved.

2. Although your previous post is somewhat factual regarding Senior pilots, if that was really a factor, the 700's would be disappearing. Moreover, aside of Skywest's growth over the last couple of years, their seniority list largely mirrors ASA as far as pilot seniority. Skywest has not lost a single airplane because of their Senior pilots--and ASA's costs are nearly the same!

3. If ASA was awarded airplanes in this seat range, it would not be Senior pilots getting the vacancies. For the majority of the Captain positions, it would be pilots with 5-6 years of Seniority--just look at the last vacancy bids back in March! New positions would be paid at 5-6 year pay scales for Captain, and new hire pilots would come in at some level at regional industy standard, starting pay. This would bring average costs down. Southwest has benefitted in that concept for years.

4. If there was no plan for the future, ASA would be furloughing pilots today--instead of carrying extra staffing. Ultimately, through the flow-through costs component of the DCI contract, Delta pays Pilot salaries. Do you think that they would condone incurring extra expenses if there was not a plan in the near term to utilize those pilots?

5. Atlanta will grow after the merger for mainline, as will DCI--ASA inclusive!

6. Don't buy into the "got to be the lowest or 2nd lowest" costs in the portfolio. After the last Comair concessions, and even with our new working agreement, most of the DCI carriers have cost structures that are pretty much in line--with variances here and there. Of course, Mesa would be the exception, and they appear to be on the way out and they have the lowest costs of any DCI carrier. So the low cost argument goes out the window.

7. With costs being mostly in line with DCI, it is really about Performance, Performance, and Performance!

8. Brand Scope is a fairy tale. It would be more constructive to talk about how to find the gold at the end of the rainbow. It will never happen because no mainline pilot group will pay the price--and why should they? On a regional level, even AE, which negotiated a long-term contract to get a form of brand scope, could not achieve brand scope.(TSA) What did it cost them?

9. One of the reasons Skywest bought ASA was because of the attractive pricing of orders and options that were negotiated under the Skip Barnette/Brian LeBreque era. Skywest, Inc. could distribute them anywhere they wanted, and yes, they played the game with the carrot on the stick and influenced the eventual vote.

10. Finally, ASA, not by default, but by strategic design, was protected in ATL in the DCI agreement that Skywest, Inc. signed with Delta. It appears that this agreement protected both Skywest, Inc. and Delta! ASA was the pawn. The agreement guaranteed ASA a percentage of the ATL, DCI flying for the term of the contract. This protected Skywest's investment, but also protected Delta by ultimately keeping ASA as a separate entity from Skywest Airlines. There are numeroust reasons that ASA and Skywest will always remain separate--unless an admendment is negotiated. It protects Delta's interest to keep ASA separate--and this is largely dictated by the DCI agreement and the way it was structured with Skywest, Inc.
 
By my count here is whats flying now or scheduled to be delivered:

Comair = 18
Pinnacle = 16
Mesa = 14
Mesaba = 36
Compass = 36

That totals 120 76-seaters. I have heard that Skywest has also converted their -900s to the 76 seat configuration instead of 70 seats.

I wouldn't expect fleet growth after the merger. One thing that has never happened in the history of airlines is a net increase in capacity after a merger.

I would agree that the 70 seat market is still wide open for a good number of those aircraft to go into service. I would expect to see an additional pull down of 50-seaters in exchange for 70-seaters.

Comair only has 13 with the 14th (and final) scheduled for delivery in Feb '09.
 
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I can already tell you that ASA management will tell you that. I was told by our boss that we are currently only 4th lowest cost (we are supposed to be 2nd, as you all know).....and that is why Delta will not consider us for 900's. We cost too much. So, all the rah rah go get performance stuff is a smokescreen. It has nothing to do with performance, quality or reliability. Is is soley about cost!

ASA looks to be the odd man out, and hopefully will have a chair when the music stops. Pinnacle and Mesaba are the ones that will get new DCI growth. Not sure how they compare the costs of these company's, that differ so much in size, type of operation, etc...

I completely agree with this. It's going to come down with who is the cheapest to operate. Mesaba, and Compass have a very junior pilot work group. Half of Mesaba's pilot group has been there for no more than 2 years, including a good number of captains. Mesaba already has 900's for the majority of the fleet. Same goes for compass. Now as for pinnacle they have a large amount of 50 seaters and only a handful of 900's. Delta wants to get rid of 50 seater operators. In reality no one knows, but it looks like Mesaba and Compass are the ones who will see most of the growth. Pinchnickle will probably see a few more airplanes.
 
By my count here is whats flying now or scheduled to be delivered:

Comair = 18
Pinnacle = 16
Mesa = 14
Mesaba = 36
Compass = 36

That totals 120 76-seaters. I have heard that Skywest has also converted their -900s to the 76 seat configuration instead of 70 seats.

I wouldn't expect fleet growth after the merger. One thing that has never happened in the history of airlines is a net increase in capacity after a merger.

Although I would agree with your statement in part-- reallocating, replacement, and right-sizing could occur without increasing capacity. The main idea is to control capacity--thus pricing. Right-sizing will equate to more 76 seat aircraft--an increase in that fleet with a possible reduction in 50 seat RJs and possibly old, fuel inefficient mainline aircraft.

I would agree that the 70 seat market is still wide open for a good number of those aircraft to go into service. I would expect to see an additional pull down of 50-seaters in exchange for 70-seaters.

Yes, this is one example of replacing and right-sizing of aircraft.
 
We had 900s....but they were diverted to Skywest while we held out for more than was reasonable......Don't worry...."No pilot will be left behind".......

Joe,

Were you left behind? It appears you got a nice raise, signing bonus, and a rig like everone else.

Who was left behind?

We never had 900's. At least I never saw a single one on the ramp. However, we did have ATR's!

By default, you are going to the jet. However, after a few months you will wonder why you didn't bid it before. Life is good at altitude and an aircraft that has some reliability.
 
Speed....

You seem pretty emphatic when you say 90's coming to ASA. In an exchange I had with our boss over my concerns about the direction of this company, and the fact that they keep patting us on the back left and right, but no rewards seem to come, as we watch everyone else growing in out only playground.......I was told no 90's are coming to ASA, because our costs are too high, as compared to Pinnacle, Mesaba and Compass. I think the merger will be our downfall at ASA, as it opens the door for these NWA carriers. So, we are being overlooked for cheapness alone. I keep asking everyone to explain to me how the costs are calculated, and how we compare to the costs of others. Maybe our cost of operation is more due to the environment we operate in, as compared to others. Nobody has an answer, other than we are expensive.

Anyway, I'll cling to your enthusiasm and keep hoping that eventually something good will happen at ASA.
 
Speed....

You seem pretty emphatic when you say 90's coming to ASA. In an exchange I had with our boss over my concerns about the direction of this company, and the fact that they keep patting us on the back left and right, but no rewards seem to come, as we watch everyone else growing in out only playground.......I was told no 90's are coming to ASA, because our costs are too high, as compared to Pinnacle, Mesaba and Compass. I think the merger will be our downfall at ASA, as it opens the door for these NWA carriers. So, we are being overlooked for cheapness alone. I keep asking everyone to explain to me how the costs are calculated, and how we compare to the costs of others. Maybe our cost of operation is more due to the environment we operate in, as compared to others. Nobody has an answer, other than we are expensive.

Anyway, I'll cling to your enthusiasm and keep hoping that eventually something good will happen at ASA.

Legally, "OUR Boss" cannot tell you anything other than what he is telling you at this point. Mesa has lower costs than either Mesaba or Compass and it does not appear they will be a DCI carrier in the near future. After the merger is approved, we will have some opportunities. If you listen to all the Boyds of the Airline world, 50's will be replaced by larger RJ's. ASA has a good marketing agreement for at least the next 12 years. Hopefully, we all will have several new career opportunities beyond this Company in the next few years.

P.S. Does "Our Boss" equate to the Director of Flight Operations? If so, don't panic, his mantra is consistent--and he would like you to believe it for his own bonus reasons. Managers will always tell you that your costs are too high--that's their job.
 
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That's true...but if we had settled earlier I believe we would have the original 900s that were transferred to Skywest.
I think things would be the same and we would have had to have settled for Zero net gain. But, at this point, we both can only speculate.

In addition, the higher pay and better workrules results in more people staying which compounds the longevity cost factor.
People are staying because no one is hiring. We lost about 365 pilots in 2007 to other airlines--about 1/4th of the work force and they were replaced by new hires at lower rates.

The only way to solve that is through "brand scope"....ALPA missed the ball on that however....Too late now....
Brand Scope is a pipe dream--just like a National Seniority List. Time to move on!

ASA won't go away....but it will get smaller.....
I totally disagree with the "get smaller." You'll see in about March.
 
Joe,

By default, you are going to the jet. However, after a few months you will wonder why you didn't bid it before. Life is good at altitude and an aircraft that has some reliability.

Off topic but, going from the ATR to the Jet is like going from SPAM to fillet mignon for dinner...The sim instructor was like, "you're going to feel like you're at a different airline"
 
Off topic but, going from the ATR to the Jet is like going from SPAM to fillet mignon for dinner...The sim instructor was like, "you're going to feel like you're at a different airline"

It's the same airline. I'd take the ATR any day over that POS CRJ. From a guy that has flown them both.
 
How many seats do they have in them? I know they originally came with 70 and thats what the SkyWest website shows. I have heard they are being converted to 76 seats though. Whats the status?

All of SkyWest's 900's are now configured with 76 seats.
 
Speed....

You seem pretty emphatic when you say 90's coming to ASA. In an exchange I had with our boss over my concerns about the direction of this company, and the fact that they keep patting us on the back left and right, but no rewards seem to come, as we watch everyone else growing in out only playground.......I was told no 90's are coming to ASA, because our costs are too high, as compared to Pinnacle, Mesaba and Compass. I think the merger will be our downfall at ASA, as it opens the door for these NWA carriers. So, we are being overlooked for cheapness alone. I keep asking everyone to explain to me how the costs are calculated, and how we compare to the costs of others. Maybe our cost of operation is more due to the environment we operate in, as compared to others. Nobody has an answer, other than we are expensive.

Anyway, I'll cling to your enthusiasm and keep hoping that eventually something good will happen at ASA.

79%,

Here's a thought...I know we just finished implementation of our current contract, but the contract length is only 3 years. Remember the adage "If you tell a lie long enough people will believe it".

Prediction: Now that performance is under control, we are going to here this "we are too expensive" mantra for the next 8 years while we live out our current contract and negotiate a new one.
 
The contract lock in we have with Delta is predicated on cost. It's quite simple, either we are industry average for now, and 2nd cheapest two years from now, or we lose our DCI lock in for the 80% and 15 year agreement. Honestly, right now, it's not looking good with Compass, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in the mix. We may have gotten hosed by the merger.

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again- Those 900's that Skywest is flying were OURS. On the taxi out when they just started showing up, there was one in front of me with an "EV" tail number and the "Skywest" logo. I'm 100% sure of what I saw, and no one will convince me otherwise.

The only reason we haven't lost aircraft due to cost structure is due to our performance. Right now, our high number are saving our bacon- pure and simple. Yet some want to start a slow down because we aren't getting new airplanes. Sure- slow down and let me know how that works for you in a few months......

In regard to ALPA- there gets to be a point to where it's not about what WAS done, but WHAT DO WE DO NOW! Would things have been different had we had a crystal ball? Perhaps....but how about we do what we need to now- which is run an on time airline, work WITH management to help ensure the long term success of this airline and it's pilots, and concentrate on flying the aircraft we have NOW. Delta will have to worry about where they stick their airplanes, and we have no say in where they go.

After Skywest got those 900's, we were never promissed new airplanes as a result of reaching a T/A. We weren't lied to- we were just told that we were "competative" with this new contract.
 
Joe,

Were you left behind? It appears you got a nice raise, signing bonus, and a rig like everyone else.

Who was left behind?

We never had 900's. At least I never saw a single one on the ramp. However, we did have ATR's!

By default, you are going to the jet. However, after a few months you will wonder why you didn't bid it before. Life is good at altitude and an aircraft that has some reliability.

The 42 pilots who got paycuts were left behind.

Directly from BH. We had two offers for the -900s. The first time we declined them because we didn't want to give up two 50's for each -900, and the second time because the new DAL mgmt are former NWA mgmt and they wanted them to go to a NWA WO.

Now fuel costs over-shadow labor, and the best thing we can do is save every second of APU and engine fuel burn possible. Pass-through fuel cost is a factor DAL can and will look at when considering our contract.

DAL does like ASA a lot and is impressed with our performance. We now have to put that same effort into our fuel savings.
 
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Won't matter. ASA is the 4th lowest cost lift provider, among the current DCI portfolio. Add Mesaba and Compass and ASA is the 6th lowest. We are waaaaay down on the list to get any new airframes.
 
Jumpers,

I don't have a problem with the rest of your post. But I do question your airplane recognition skills.

Skywest has 17 CRJ900, and none of them has ever been registered with an EV tail number. You probably won't believe me, so you can search the FAA database. All of them went from the temporary factory canadian registration, to an SK tail number.

Were the 900's destined for ASA? I don't know. But I do know that none of them ever had an EV registration.
 
Won't matter. ASA is the 4th lowest cost lift provider, among the current DCI portfolio. Add Mesaba and Compass and ASA is the 6th lowest. We are waaaaay down on the list to get any new airframes.

How is it that you guys claim to know what the costs of doing business are at all these carriers? How do you know that ASA is more expensive to run than Mesaba? Personally, I think its a pretty far fetched idea that Mesaba can operate 17 CRJ-200s cheaper than ASA can operate 110 of them regardless of a pilot contract.

If you have studied knowledge of the balance sheets on these carriers please identify that. If your just an armchair executive please make that known so we can ignore you.
 
Jumpers,

I don't have a problem with the rest of your post. But I do question your airplane recognition skills.

Skywest has 17 CRJ900, and none of them has ever been registered with an EV tail number. You probably won't believe me, so you can search the FAA database. All of them went from the temporary factory canadian registration, to an SK tail number.

Were the 900's destined for ASA? I don't know. But I do know that none of them ever had an EV registration.

I don't need to search the FAA database- I know what I saw......it taxied right in front of me. I still remember the anger I fealt. Say what you wish, what you found on the FAA website, etc- I know what I saw, and I know my aircraft types.
 
I don't need to search the FAA database- I know what I saw......it taxied right in front of me. I still remember the anger I fealt. Say what you wish, what you found on the FAA website, etc- I know what I saw, and I know my aircraft types.

Are you sure it wasn't a 700? SkyWest operated 4 former ASA birds, originally with EV tail numbers although they were later re-registered to SK.
 
How is it that you guys claim to know what the costs of doing business are at all these carriers? How do you know that ASA is more expensive to run than Mesaba? Personally, I think its a pretty far fetched idea that Mesaba can operate 17 CRJ-200s cheaper than ASA can operate 110 of them regardless of a pilot contract.

If you have studied knowledge of the balance sheets on these carriers please identify that. If your just an armchair executive please make that known so we can ignore you.

You are exactly right in your post!

They believe what they are fed--tribal rumors from tribal chiefs that don't have their best interest at heart. It seems that about 2 years ago, I remember alot of this "cost too high" mantra being spewed by Brian L. and then the CEO until some of the pilots called B.S. on them and let them know that they were full of H.S. At some point, they stopped coming in because pilots were doing their homework on some of the DOT reports that published financial info that they supplied, that was in direct contradiction to what they were trying to sell in the crew lounge.
 
Word on the street is Delta is using the Freedom 900s as bait to get rid of 50 seaters. Anyone who wants the planes can have them as long as they give up 2 50s per plane....

Most rumors say the planes are most likely headed to......Mesaba....
 

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