DAL Regional Feed?

[clarkwgriswald]

Well it looks like being wholly owned is working well for Comair. NOT!

It's anybodys guess what happens in the next year. Other than Delta is going to have 40% of the RJ fleet.

ASA has improved drastically in the last 9 months. Delta wont even throw us a bone. So doing a good job dosen't help either. It's all about what we cost!

I give it 6 months and we are going to hear we cost to much. Unless oil goes to $60.00 a barrel

701EV

Comair, flying wise at least, will be liquidated by this time next year. Maybe asa will get the 13 or 14 900s comair has.

 

[BigLebowski]

Find it hard to believe that SkyW wont' be getting a piece of the pie considering the contract JA signed with Delta after the ASA purchase.

 

[Caspian27]

There are 17 900's in service for SkyWest now, with 4 more coming for a total of 21 in service for Delta.

 

[DoinTime]

(Yeah, just go ahead and ignore the 16 at RAH.)

Do they have more than 70 seats? The Rjet.com website indicates they don't but its not likely to be up to date.

There are 17 900's in service for SkyWest now, with 4 more coming for a total of 21 in service for Delta.

How many seats do they have in them? I know they originally came with 70 and thats what the SkyWest website shows. I have heard they are being converted to 76 seats though. Whats the status?

 

[king10pin02]

Do they have more than 70 seats? The Rjet.com website indicates they don't but its not likely to be up to date.




How many seats do they have in them? I know they originally came with 70 and thats what the SkyWest website shows. I have heard they are being converted to 76 seats though. Whats the status?

RAH is replacing the 70 seat 170's one for one with 76 seat 175s (12/64 config)

 

[79%N1]

I can already tell you that ASA management will tell you that. I was told by our boss that we are currently only 4th lowest cost (we are supposed to be 2nd, as you all know).....and that is why Delta will not consider us for 900's. We cost too much. So, all the rah rah go get performance stuff is a smokescreen. It has nothing to do with performance, quality or reliability. Is is soley about cost!

ASA looks to be the odd man out, and hopefully will have a chair when the music stops. Pinnacle and Mesaba are the ones that will get new DCI growth. Not sure how they compare the costs of these company's, that differ so much in size, type of operation, etc...

 

[JoeMerchant]

You know why our 900 program isn't complete? We don't have any airplanes to get it certified.

We had 900s....but they were diverted to Skywest while we held out for more than was reasonable......Don't worry...."No pilot will be left behind".......

 

[JoeMerchant]

I can already tell you that ASA management will tell you that. I was told by our boss that we are currently only 4th lowest cost (we are supposed to be 2nd, as you all know).....and that is why Delta will not consider us for 900's. We cost too much. So, all the rah rah go get performance stuff is a smokescreen. It has nothing to do with performance, quality or reliability. Is is soley about cost!

ASA looks to be the odd man out, and hopefully will have a chair when the music stops. Pinnacle and Mesaba are the ones that will get new DCI growth. Not sure how they compare the costs of these company's, that differ so much in size, type of operation, etc...

The portfolio concept is still alive and well.....ASA and CMR are the two expensive operators.....Cost isn't the only factor....but it is a large factor....

We have a better contract than most....We a relatively senior pilot group....We won't get the growth.....

We wanted the pay and the better contract....Nobody in any portfolio has ever had the best contract and the growth....

 

[sweptback]

We had 900s....but they were diverted to Skywest while we held out for more than was reasonable......Don't worry...."No pilot will be left behind".......

My point was that according to the instructors I talked to, we can't finish our 900 program until we get an airplane to do the required proving runs, etc.

 

[sweptback]

The portfolio concept is still alive and well.....ASA and CMR are the two expensive operators.....Cost isn't the only factor....but it is a large factor....

We have a better contract than most....We a relatively senior pilot group....We won't get the growth.....

We wanted the pay and the better contract....Nobody in any portfolio has ever had the best contract and the growth....

I think the bigger problem is the senior pilot group. Look at the pilot groups that are growing and the pilot groups that are shrinking. The growing ones, contract and pay aside, have relatively junior pilot groups. The shrinking ones have senior pilot groups... ASA, Comair, AE, Horizon.

I truly believe that ASA could have "settled" for the cheapest pilot contract in history, undercutting even Mesa, and we'd still be in the same position. The problem is the upper end of the payscale is expensive regardless of whether you pay $85/hr or $104.

 

[JoeMerchant]

My point was that according to the instructors I talked to, we can't finish our 900 program until we get an airplane to do the required proving runs, etc.

There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....

 

[sweptback]

Find it hard to believe that SkyW wont' be getting a piece of the pie considering the contract JA signed with Delta after the ASA purchase.

When SkyWest, Inc. purchased ASA, they were guaranteed something like 40 additional growth aircraft. All but 8 of those aircraft were delivered to SkyWest Airlines (the 8 were delivered to ASA).

So as far as Delta is concerned, they have satisfied their end of the agreement. I'm sure they would like to keep all future flying away from SkyWest, Inc. as they already control about 55% of all DCI flying!

 

[JoeMerchant]

I think the bigger problem is the senior pilot group. Look at the pilot groups that are growing and the pilot groups that are shrinking. The growing ones, contract and pay aside, have relatively junior pilot groups. The shrinking ones have senior pilot groups... ASA, Comair, AE, Horizon.

I truly believe that ASA could have "settled" for the cheapest pilot contract in history, undercutting even Mesa, and we'd still be in the same position. The problem is the upper end of the payscale is expensive regardless of whether you pay $85/hr or $104.

That's true...but if we had settled earlier I believe we would have the original 900s that were transferred to Skywest.

In addition, the higher pay and better workrules results in more people staying which compounds the longevity cost factor.

The only way to solve that is through "brand scope"....ALPA missed the ball on that however....Too late now....

ASA won't go away....but it will get smaller.....

 

[sweptback]

There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....

One could argue that those aircraft were always going to SkyWest Airlines and they just put on a good show to scare us into dropping our demands. ASA at that time was one of the worst performing airlines in the country... it would be foolish to award new airplanes to an airline in that state. Or, maybe Jerry was trying to "stack the deck" at SkyWest Airlines with a bunch of first year pilots that would be sure "no" votes on the ALPA drive. Who knows really.

However, none of us can go back in time and change what happened. I personally am not a fan of the "get the aircraft on the property and get the pay rates later" plan that most regionals are following. It's been proven over and over again that if you don't play ball, the airplanes can leave just as easily as they came.

 

[blesko]

There are only so many 900s allowed.....We missed the boat when we decided to take on Jerry.....Hardliners like you thought he was bluffing about diverting and transferring airplanes while you and others held out for large 700 payraises, Bfund retirement, status quo instructor section, and 100% retro pay.....In the end we didn't get those things and the airplanes were transferred.....

You are much better off getting the airplanes on the property first....It is much harder to reverse the loss of airplanes....

Bulls****.....what crack are you smokin? You're drinkin the same skywest koolaid. Jeesus Christ. We stood and protected your job while you believe that the company has OUR best interests in mind. Period. Pay me a respectable wage, I'll fly a respectable airplane. I, along with most of the pilot group feel the same way. Its MY and OUR career and profession, not YOUR job. Point is, its a d**** airplane, whether its your ATR or my CRJ. It all operates the same way. Money. We're never going to grow airplane wise, we're going to grown ASM wise. Net zero airplane gain, or even a minor aircraft loss, to gain 900's. Let them take us apart.......we can go down knowing that we stood for something. Look at comair. Have some self respect man.

 

[Speedtape]

My point was that according to the instructors I talked to, we can't finish our 900 program until we get an airplane to do the required proving runs, etc.

1. The airplanes are coming in the first quarter after the merger is approved.

2. Although your previous post is somewhat factual regarding Senior pilots, if that was really a factor, the 700's would be disappearing. Moreover, aside of Skywest's growth over the last couple of years, their seniority list largely mirrors ASA as far as pilot seniority. Skywest has not lost a single airplane because of their Senior pilots--and ASA's costs are nearly the same!

3. If ASA was awarded airplanes in this seat range, it would not be Senior pilots getting the vacancies. For the majority of the Captain positions, it would be pilots with 5-6 years of Seniority--just look at the last vacancy bids back in March! New positions would be paid at 5-6 year pay scales for Captain, and new hire pilots would come in at some level at regional industy standard, starting pay. This would bring average costs down. Southwest has benefitted in that concept for years.

4. If there was no plan for the future, ASA would be furloughing pilots today--instead of carrying extra staffing. Ultimately, through the flow-through costs component of the DCI contract, Delta pays Pilot salaries. Do you think that they would condone incurring extra expenses if there was not a plan in the near term to utilize those pilots?

5. Atlanta will grow after the merger for mainline, as will DCI--ASA inclusive!

6. Don't buy into the "got to be the lowest or 2nd lowest" costs in the portfolio. After the last Comair concessions, and even with our new working agreement, most of the DCI carriers have cost structures that are pretty much in line--with variances here and there. Of course, Mesa would be the exception, and they appear to be on the way out and they have the lowest costs of any DCI carrier. So the low cost argument goes out the window.

7. With costs being mostly in line with DCI, it is really about Performance, Performance, and Performance!

8. Brand Scope is a fairy tale. It would be more constructive to talk about how to find the gold at the end of the rainbow. It will never happen because no mainline pilot group will pay the price--and why should they? On a regional level, even AE, which negotiated a long-term contract to get a form of brand scope, could not achieve brand scope.(TSA) What did it cost them?

9. One of the reasons Skywest bought ASA was because of the attractive pricing of orders and options that were negotiated under the Skip Barnette/Brian LeBreque era. Skywest, Inc. could distribute them anywhere they wanted, and yes, they played the game with the carrot on the stick and influenced the eventual vote.

10. Finally, ASA, not by default, but by strategic design, was protected in ATL in the DCI agreement that Skywest, Inc. signed with Delta. It appears that this agreement protected both Skywest, Inc. and Delta! ASA was the pawn. The agreement guaranteed ASA a percentage of the ATL, DCI flying for the term of the contract. This protected Skywest's investment, but also protected Delta by ultimately keeping ASA as a separate entity from Skywest Airlines. There are numeroust reasons that ASA and Skywest will always remain separate--unless an admendment is negotiated. It protects Delta's interest to keep ASA separate--and this is largely dictated by the DCI agreement and the way it was structured with Skywest, Inc.

 

[CRJ puppy]

By my count here is whats flying now or scheduled to be delivered:

Comair = 18
Pinnacle = 16
Mesa = 14
Mesaba = 36
Compass = 36

That totals 120 76-seaters. I have heard that Skywest has also converted their -900s to the 76 seat configuration instead of 70 seats.

I wouldn't expect fleet growth after the merger. One thing that has never happened in the history of airlines is a net increase in capacity after a merger.

I would agree that the 70 seat market is still wide open for a good number of those aircraft to go into service. I would expect to see an additional pull down of 50-seaters in exchange for 70-seaters.

Comair only has 13 with the 14th (and final) scheduled for delivery in Feb '09.

 

[Flybet3]

I can already tell you that ASA management will tell you that. I was told by our boss that we are currently only 4th lowest cost (we are supposed to be 2nd, as you all know).....and that is why Delta will not consider us for 900's. We cost too much. So, all the rah rah go get performance stuff is a smokescreen. It has nothing to do with performance, quality or reliability. Is is soley about cost!

ASA looks to be the odd man out, and hopefully will have a chair when the music stops. Pinnacle and Mesaba are the ones that will get new DCI growth. Not sure how they compare the costs of these company's, that differ so much in size, type of operation, etc...

I completely agree with this. It's going to come down with who is the cheapest to operate. Mesaba, and Compass have a very junior pilot work group. Half of Mesaba's pilot group has been there for no more than 2 years, including a good number of captains. Mesaba already has 900's for the majority of the fleet. Same goes for compass. Now as for pinnacle they have a large amount of 50 seaters and only a handful of 900's. Delta wants to get rid of 50 seater operators. In reality no one knows, but it looks like Mesaba and Compass are the ones who will see most of the growth. Pinchnickle will probably see a few more airplanes.

 

[Speedtape]

By my count here is whats flying now or scheduled to be delivered:

Comair = 18
Pinnacle = 16
Mesa = 14
Mesaba = 36
Compass = 36

That totals 120 76-seaters. I have heard that Skywest has also converted their -900s to the 76 seat configuration instead of 70 seats.

I wouldn't expect fleet growth after the merger. One thing that has never happened in the history of airlines is a net increase in capacity after a merger.

Although I would agree with your statement in part-- reallocating, replacement, and right-sizing could occur without increasing capacity. The main idea is to control capacity--thus pricing. Right-sizing will equate to more 76 seat aircraft--an increase in that fleet with a possible reduction in 50 seat RJs and possibly old, fuel inefficient mainline aircraft.

I would agree that the 70 seat market is still wide open for a good number of those aircraft to go into service. I would expect to see an additional pull down of 50-seaters in exchange for 70-seaters.

Yes, this is one example of replacing and right-sizing of aircraft.

 

[Speedtape]

We had 900s....but they were diverted to Skywest while we held out for more than was reasonable......Don't worry...."No pilot will be left behind".......

Joe,

Were you left behind? It appears you got a nice raise, signing bonus, and a rig like everone else.

Who was left behind?

We never had 900's. At least I never saw a single one on the ramp. However, we did have ATR's!

By default, you are going to the jet. However, after a few months you will wonder why you didn't bid it before. Life is good at altitude and an aircraft that has some reliability.