DAL/NWA SLI Hearings in a nutshell

[Superpilot92]

You are still not seeing it for what it is. That is fair. I do not expect you to.
Claiming a bump in seniority discounts that it is for career expectations and rationalizing the list based upon equipment at each pre merger carrier. Looking at it myopically works for your argument, and it will work for our rebuttal.

I am pretty sure about 5000 people likely disagree with you. I have no doubt that if you were on this side of the fence you would have a different train of thought. I know why your side likes this list, its pretty obvious.

Ours will likely show the same but in reverse. Negotiating 101 and both sides are playing extremes. Do you think its fair to staple 10% of the NWA list to the bottom? Does that show relative seniority? There are ways to protect against the "assumed what-ifs" in regards to the DC9s other than stapling. The stapling is only one of the inconsistencies of the relative % argument. There are many more problems throughout the entire list.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Super, of course I would have a different opinion if I were you. I would be hoping for a windfall, but in the back of my mind I would expect what the DAL list shows. The DC-9 has about the same number of positions that are at the bottom of our proposal. It makes sense. I would understand why it needed to be this way, not that I would be happy about it.
I would want relative in a straight ratio so that I to could benefit the same way the DAL new hires are. That is a windfall for you and everyone else flying the Diesel 9.
That is why it will not be that way.

 

[PuffDriver]

To bad its not within 2% across the board and its more like DAL pilots got anywhere from a 1-5% bump in seniority while NWA pilots took a hit of around that same amount. Also who is getting 40k a year pay bump other than the previous furlough guys?

The disconnect here is that seniority isnt for sale on the NWA side. The NWA mec has made that pretty clear. I am sure when our proposed list comes out you guys will see it just as bogus as we all see yours.

Nobody is saying seniority is for sale. That time has passed. NWA pilots are getting more compensation to bring them to parity with Delta pilots. Any reasonable party will see that and reward, aka "not punish", the Delta pilots via seniority. If we don't get the stovepipe, then it will be similar.

All NWA pilots get larger raises than Delta pilots. ALL NWA pilots benefit dramatically, read they won't furlough now, from the Delta staffing formula.

Your arguments were wrong then, and they are wrong now as well as outdated and behind the times.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Sounds quite familiar puff.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

OK,

The truth comes out. The uber-professional benevolant delta pilots real plan. Either we get what we want via capitulation or arbitration or we will use our sheer numbers to pull a eastie. Looking forward to working with such a honorable group. Can't wait until we ever actually have to stand up to the company as a unified group.

actually, what happend at USAir can't happen here unless the Delta pilots get screwed. We have the numbers to out vote you. So there is no way you could try to muscle in NWAPA to get DOH. We also already have a joint contract.

Frankly, I don't think the DALPA position goes far enough.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And everyone though that we were going to lay down and take one for the team. Oops! Guess not.

 

[Superpilot92]

Super, of course I would have a different opinion if I were you. I would be hoping for a windfall, but in the back of my mind I would expect what the DAL list shows. The DC-9 has about the same number of positions that are at the bottom of our proposal. It makes sense. I would understand why it needed to be this way, not that I would be happy about it.
I would want relative in a straight ratio so that I to could benefit the same way the DAL new hires are. That is a windfall for you and everyone else flying the Diesel 9.
That is why it will not be that way.

Short term "what if" protection doesnt constitute stapling 10% of our list. That effects us for the rest of our careers not just while the DC9s are here. There are other means to protect against the what ifs involved with the dc9s. Fence them and protect the pre-merger DAL pilots throughout the remaining time the DC9s are flown. That gives the protection instead of a windfall career effecting seniority grab that is trying to be justified because of a short term "WHAT IF". The list is lopsided and that will come out in arbitration. This is exactly why a negotiated list couldn't be made. I have no doubt when our proposal is announced you guys will be complaining just as we are.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is not a what if, it is fact that the DC-9 is the smallest large gauge airframe that DAL will have on property being flown by mainline pilots. Is this really that hard to conceptualize?

The what if is furloughs and that will be taken care of as well this way. A fence only deals with one side of the equation. This proposal deals with both issues. Read all of the transcripts. I know it is over 600 pages but the argument is succinct.

 

[Truckdriver]

I gain about 2.4% system seniority with the DALPA proposal. I have no idea what the arbitrators will do, but from reading the hearing transcripts, they made it clear that there is no fair way of doing this. I don't think they will be concerned about DOH, and gaining 2.4% system seniority if your relative position stays the same will not be a big deal to an arbitrator. Even if they do come back and I were to gain 0% system seniority, I'd still be integrated in with the 00 hires at NWA. Either way, NWA guys are going to have to realize that DOH means nothing here. The arbitrators know that and making DOH your starting position is a stupid move in my opinion.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well it makes the decision easy for the arbitrators.

 

[Superpilot92]

It is not a what if, it is fact that the DC-9 is the smallest large gauge airframe that DAL will have on property being flown by mainline pilots. Is this really that hard to conceptualize?

The what if is furloughs and that will be taken care of as well this way. A fence only deals with one side of the equation. This proposal deals with both issues. Read all of the transcripts. I know it is over 600 pages but the argument is succinct.

Thats not the point being argued. the point argued is that the remaining DC9s arent going away this year or next year and the only thing when have heard is that DAL said they would like to keep them till 2012 at least. Therefore the effects of retiring those planes wont effect the pilots currently on property the same way now as if its in 4-5 years. That also doesnt consider replacement aircraft that would have eventually come to mainline. The scope prohibits parking them and replacing all of them with RJ's. There is NOTHING that says DAL might not decide with oil going down that they may pull some out of the desert either as those planes arent retired they were parked. Bottom line is who knows. Arguing what ifs about the future of the DC9 is pointless. People have been saying for 20 years the DC9 is on its way out and here it is in all its glory still flying and flying well today.

Speaking of its time to go, cheers :beer:

 

[FDJ2]

The DC-9 First Officer position is on the bottom of the list for the same reason the NWA MEC argues the 747 Captain position should be at the top. Size, range and pay.

The DC-9 is not only the oldest airframe, it's the smallest airframe, with the shortest range and the smallest pay check. It's replacement aircracft, according to NALPA, the 77-110 seater, pays even less.

The value of a DC-9 F/O position is less than a 747, less than a 757, less than a A320 and less than a MD88/90. It is therefore ranked accordingly on the DALPA proposal. It is the most junior position at NWA and it will be the most junior position at DAL.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Excellently stated.

 

[PuffDriver]

OK,

The truth comes out. The uber-professional benevolant delta pilots real plan. Either we get what we want via capitulation or arbitration or we will use our sheer numbers to pull a eastie. Looking forward to working with such a honorable group. Can't wait until we ever actually have to stand up to the company as a unified group.

The truth came out from Superpilot. I believe that it was he who stated the 5000 some NWA pilots who won't be......

You and he, whhhaaaaaaa, whhhaaaaa:crying: :crying:

Perhaps you should start with lecturing him. For it is he who started the "threat".

 

[Superpilot92]

The DC-9 First Officer position is on the bottom of the list for the same reason the NWA MEC argues the 747 Captain position should be at the top. Size, range and pay.

The DC-9 is not only the oldest airframe, it's the smallest airframe, with the shortest range and the smallest pay check. It's replacement aircracft, according to NALPA, the 77-110 seater, pays even less.

The value of a DC-9 F/O position is less than a 747, less than a 757, less than a A320 and less than a MD88/90. It is therefore ranked accordingly on the DALPA proposal. It is the most junior position at NWA and it will be the most junior position at DAL.

The question of how DAL established their idea of the perfect list is clear except for stapling 10% of the NWA pilots. That doesnt bode with the idea of relative seniority. Also its ironic that relative seniority + or - worked out to be + for the DAL side and - for the NWA side. Can you argue that that isnt true? (ala seniority grab)

 

[Superpilot92]

The truth came out from Superpilot. I believe that it was he who stated the 5000 some NWA pilots who won't be......

You and he, whhhaaaaaaa, whhhaaaaa:crying: :crying:

Perhaps you should start with lecturing him. For it is he who started the "threat".

I said its likely that at least 5000 pilots dont think its fair, SO? How is that a threat? Your childish posts show that you shouldnt be taken seriously. You are doing a fine job of ruining any chance of an actual discussion every time you post.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The DC-9 First Officer position is on the bottom of the list for the same reason the NWA MEC argues the 747 Captain position should be at the top. Size, range and pay.

The DC-9 is not only the oldest airframe, it's the smallest airframe, with the shortest range and the smallest pay check. It's replacement aircracft, according to NALPA, the 77-110 seater, pays even less.

The value of a DC-9 F/O position is less than a 747, less than a 757, less than a A320 and less than a MD88/90. It is therefore ranked accordingly on the DALPA proposal. It is the most junior position at NWA and it will be the most junior position at DAL.

Well put. If Superpilot wasn't flying the DC9, his opinion would be the same as yours. Personally, I can't wait until he bids off the thing.

Super, PM me your address ... you need a Delta 767 sticker for your flight bag.

 

[DTW320]

Well put. If Superpilot wasn't flying the DC9, his opinion would be the same as yours. Personally, I can't wait until he bids off the thing.

Super, PM me your address ... you need a Delta 767 sticker for your flight bag.

I thought that stickers on your flight bag were not allowed. Not professional ya know. Don't you worry about the "sticker sheriff"? What is the current fine for that?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I thought that stickers on your flight bag were not allowed. Not professional ya know. Don't you worry about the "sticker sheriff"? What is the current fine for that?

huh? stickers are allowed per the FOM...specifically airplane manufacturer and airline.



FYI:

747-200's are not in the go-ahead fleet plan of the company... 747-400's will be replaced as soon as practical as well.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. And I can tell you that most of Peanuckle's info comes from the same general circles that mine does.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I thought that stickers on your flight bag were not allowed. What is the current fine for that?

You'll hear "fine" a lot here in Atlanta.

"Wow, you look fine in that hat." "Man, that's some fine double breasted jackets." "Where's you get those fine Boeing stickers ..."

Now I like that APU Sheriff. Instead of having to sit and stare at an unlit "avail" light, ground power happens faster when there is someone keeping an eye on things. Creates more time for a Starbucks run before the next walk around.

 

[DTW320]

You'll hear "fine" a lot here in Atlanta.

"Wow, you look fine in that hat." "Man, that's some fine double breasted jackets." "Where's you get those fine Boeing stickers ..."

Now I like that APU Sheriff. Instead of having to sit and stare at an unlit "avail" light, ground power happens faster when there is someone keeping an eye on things. Creates more time for a Starbucks run before the next walk around.

Here's some more I'm sure you hear:

Staple the bottom 10% of the NWA list? Fine!
Put DAL probation pilots senior to NWA 2000 hires? Fine!

Read the last set of hearing transcripts of the cross-examination of the Delta pilot witness. Pay attention to the ratios within the top 1500 and how 10 years out it is about 4:1 in favor of DAL and eventually reaches 5:1 in favor of DAL.

Hilarious.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Now I like that APU Sheriff. Instead of having to sit and stare at an unlit "avail" light, ground power happens faster when there is someone keeping an eye on things. Creates more time for a Starbucks run before the next walk around.

I love it as well... its rare to have to wear earplugs on a walk around.

 

[FDJ2]

The question of how DAL established their idea of the perfect list is clear except for stapling 10% of the NWA pilots. That doesnt bode with the idea of relative seniority.

It's not a relative seniority list. It integrates by comparable category and status. X number of DAL wide bodied international captains with Y number of similarly placed NWA positions, and down the list it goes. It just so happens that DAL does not have a comparable piece of equipment to the DC-9, which, if you believe NALPA, will be replaced by a 77-110 seater. Perhaps if we were still flying 737-200, but we are not.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

Nice of the Delta guys to staple 403 Northwest pilots below the last Delta pilot hired almost a month after the merger was officially announced. It was extremely nice of the Delta pilots to place pilots hired at Northwest in early 2000 behind every single Delta pilot also. Northwest was hiring until the merger was announced. This list is extremely fair.

The reason is the NWA Compass deal. The 403 at Compass are still paid (and have lower career expectation) than a DAL M-88 F/O. You allowed Compass on YOUR prorerty. Imagine how many (403) pilots would be furloughed while Compass flying is flown by Pinnacle, et al.

 

[Sedona16]

Delta: 111 widebody Aircraft
NWA: 61 Widebody Aircraft

Add in career expectations/pay on widebodies and its not hard to see why DOH or anything close to it is not fair. In fact a 2007 new hire would hit a widebody captain slot way before the bottom 1000 guys at NWA would if these companies were to remain separate. This is called career expectations. Btw, NWA has very few 747's and the 200's are on their way out.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The DC-9 First Officer position is on the bottom of the list for the same reason the NWA MEC argues the 747 Captain position should be at the top. Size, range and pay.

The DC-9 is not only the oldest airframe, it's the smallest airframe, with the shortest range and the smallest pay check. It's replacement aircracft, according to NALPA, the 77-110 seater, pays even less.

The value of a DC-9 F/O position is less than a 747, less than a 757, less than a A320 and less than a MD88/90. It is therefore ranked accordingly on the DALPA proposal. It is the most junior position at NWA and it will be the most junior position at DAL.

It was a huge mistake to make "size" of aircraft part of the pay scale...The European system of seat and longevity would solve much of our infighting.....That won't happen....So continue comparing "size" and fighting amongst yourselves......

Funny thing is the DC9 folks have the hardest job of all....No magic black box to tell you where to go....

 

[Truckdriver]

I just don't understand why everyone cannot agree that a DC-9 position is not the same position as an MD88/90 position. If Delta had a fleet of DC-9's then there wouldn't be so many NWA folks on the bottom of our proposal. Since you have the smallest and lowest paying airplane wouldn't you expect to have more of the lowest paying positions on the integrated list? It doesn't matter if you keep them until 2060, they are still not the same category as the MD88/90 and shoulndn't be integrated as such any more than the 757 guys should be integrated with the 747/400 and 777 guys. If it is going to be a category and class integration then the DALPA proposal seems fair. The only other options are a straight relative seniority and DOH both of which could work with the right restrictions put in place. It doesn't matter what anyone at NWA and DAL think at this point, it matters what Mr. Bloch and his crew think which we'll find out on Nov 21st. Even he said his decision will kinda suck for everyone so we should all be ready to suck it up and move on in about a month or so.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I just don't understand why everyone cannot agree that a DC-9 position is not the same position as an MD88/90 position.

Your right....The DC9 guy works harder...No FMS...

It's not the same "position" if you look at what is behind the cockpit....They are all the same "position" if you look forward from the cockpit....

 

[Truckdriver]

Your right....The DC9 guy works harder...No FMS...

It's not the same "position" if you look at what is behind the cockpit....They are all the same "position" if you look forward from the cockpit....

So with that opinion you should be glad you have the NWA guys on your side fighting for DOH or something closer to straight relative seniority. In the end it doesn't matter what you, I, or any other NWA or DAL employee think. Mr. Bloch and his crew will make the decision in a month and he said, "the result will be a virtual guarantee that the overwhelming bulk of the pilots will be adversely affected from the seniority standpoint." With that quote, it isn't hard to imagine that he could award what DALPA has proposed or he could award a DOH integration. We'll see in a month. Until then, we should all get ready to suck it up and move on because the majority of us would have been happier seniority and career expectation wise if this merger never would have happned.