Dal/jal

[flap operator]

General - I'm well aware of 5th freedom rights and the prominence DL has (thanks to NWA) in Asia. My comment on "intricacies" was aimed towards all the other areas in the world JAL flies to. DL can really only help with US-Japan and Japan-Asia. They and the other Skyteam partners are going to have to deal with the rest.

I think the whole irony to this JAL/DL situation is that waaaay back in the day, post WWII, NWA actually helped create JAL, by providing crews and expertise. Now, today, DL is supporting them and helping them through a tough time. This wouldn't be happening without the NWA/DL merger... funny how things come full circle.

The scary part in this whole gig is that it could potentially mean the end of the interport network and all those employees DL employs. That, I hope, is a reality D-ALPA is aware of.

 

[FBN0223]

The scary part in this whole gig is that it could potentially mean the end of the interport network and all those employees DL employs. That, I hope, is a reality D-ALPA is aware of.

I really doubt we'll see an end or much of a decrease in Delta interport operations. Firstly, many of these interport flights are flown with B747-400s and A330s. These aircraft could become extinct in the JAL fleet. Also GUM and SPN are U.S territories. Likely to continue to be flown by Delta.

ALPA is going to be a hurdle as well. To what level, we will see. But I seriously doubt you'll see our senior guys giving away any of their wide-body flying as we did with the narrow-body flying via Compass, Mesaba, Comair and the other DCis. The senior Delta pilots, who run DALPA, will fight for every last block hour of interport flying.

Jal joining Skyteam equals many more Asia passengers for JAL, DAL and AF/KLM, it's not really in our interest to sound the Asia retreat.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I bet we see a down tick in the Beach Operation. It would makes sense. Not a ton but some.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Thanks to merging with NWA "ORIENT", we have 5th freedom rights to fly from NRT to other Asian cities, something most airlines cannot do. We are essentially Japan's 3rd INTL airline. If JAL wants to give up routes or planes, we are the natural choice to fly them. It really depends on what JAL wants to do. Early on they stated they might want to mainly be a "domestic" airline within Japan and just get stronger financially. If that were the case, then we, along with other SkyTeam members stand to gain a lot. I don't really know if that is the case, and I am sure we will learn more as time goes on. It could be really great for us, or it could be a codeshare that still helps bring up revenue.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I know you know this, but I will reference you reference to the Fifth Freedom Rights.

As you recall there is an agreement between the Nations of the Us and Japan, it is called Open-Skies. It is hardly fair, but the end result is the nullification of the Fifth Freedom Rights. It makes them void.

 

[flap operator]

There are also, a good amount of 757s also flying the interport markets, so it's not only the senior dogs flying in Asia. At the very least, maybe this means they'll be upgauged to widebodies. Either way, it'll remain interesting how this all unfolds. Hopefully, everyone, including the Asia based employees and the employees at the regional subsidiaries will benefit from it all.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There are also, a good amount of 757s also flying the interport markets, so it's not only the senior dogs flying in Asia. At the very least, maybe this means they'll be upgauged to widebodies. Either way, it'll remain interesting how this all unfolds. Hopefully, everyone, including the Asia based employees and the employees at the regional subsidiaries will benefit from it all.

A small number of 757's may be a different story.

 

[Schwanker]

I know you know this, but I will reference you reference to the Fifth Freedom Rights.

As you recall there is an agreement between the Nations of the Us and Japan, it is called Open-Skies. It is hardly fair, but the end result is the nullification of the Fifth Freedom Rights. It makes them void.

Isn't this Open-Skies agreement based on antitrust immunity being granted to both Japanese carriers? If the immunity isn't granted, it's status quo which could still be huge for DAL while stymieing UAL/CAL/ANA...

 

[FDJ2]

Isn't this Open-Skies agreement based on antitrust immunity being granted to both Japanese carriers? If the immunity isn't granted, it's status quo which could still be huge for DAL while stymieing UAL/CAL/ANA...

Correct.

If AI isn't granted than no open skies.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Correct.

If AI isn't granted than no open skies.

Agreed. We win either way. JAL: we get what we want, without JAL no open skies and the Fifth Freedom rights stay. Ergo give us anti-trust or you do not get open skies.



Kind of like a gun to their heads for now. The next agreement may allow what we fear, so it is better for us to nullify the fifth freedom rights, agree to Open Skies and get the alliance that makes the most sense. I see the Fifth Freedom rights going away either way, option A is just a lot better to insulate DAL from it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So for those in the know.... JAL coming over to DAL leaves AMR with a gaping whole in their pacific market.... how is this going to effect pilot jobs....

 

[Mr.B]

So for those in the know.... JAL coming over to DAL leaves AMR with a gaping whole in their pacific market.... how is this going to effect pilot jobs....

According to last weeks WSJ they plan on increasing international capacity this year. Imagine that....an airline actually flying jets instead of outsourcing.

 

[General Lee]

I don't think that is the case......

I know you know this, but I will reference you reference to the Fifth Freedom Rights.

As you recall there is an agreement between the Nations of the Us and Japan, it is called Open-Skies. It is hardly fair, but the end result is the nullification of the Fifth Freedom Rights. It makes them void.

Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
Reducing the presence of US airlines at Tokyo's Narita Airport is a key issue behind the Japanese government’s reported preference for a Japan Airlines-Delta tie-up.

An air treaty between Japan and the US that was signed more than 50 years ago could be behind the Japanese government's reported preference for Japan Airlines (JAL) to switch alliances and join Delta Air Lines in Skyteam.

"The [Japanese] government is deeply concerned with the open sky policy between Japan and the US," said Hajime Tozaki, professor of transport at Tokyo-based Waseda University's organisation of Asian studies. "The [former] air transport treaty between the US and Japan has been unfair. The main issue for the government is to reduce the share of slots at Narita Airport held by US airlines."

Ever since the 1952 Civil Air Transport Agreement between Japan and the US, two American carriers have been able to fly via Japan into Asia. This provision, created when aircraft could fly far shorter ranges than they can today, gave US airlines a highly sought after right that few countries grant carriers from other nations. Today, despite the vast improvements in aircraft technology, Delta and United Airlines still hold these rights and, combined with other US carriers, control a third of the available take-off and landing slots at Japan's busiest international gateway, Narita Airport near Tokyo.

The open skies agreement between Japan and the US that was announced this past December will not change the existing "beyond rights" or slot allotments. What it will allow is for unlimited air services between Japan and the US by any airline of either country as long as they can acquire the necessary slots.

JAL is currently part of the Oneworld alliance with American Airlines. Since last fall, American and Delta have offered the Japanese carrier competing bids for its allegiance, including equity investments and cash for staying or joining their respective alliance. A decision is expected this month and could come as soon as today.

Tozaki said that if the government were to push JAL to align with Delta, it would likely ask that the US carrier relinquish some of its Narita slots and rights to fly beyond Japan into Asia. However, Delta would be in a good position to receive new international slots at Tokyo's Haneda International Airport, which is closer to downtown than Narita, as a symbol of the airport's new "international" status, he continued.

Aligning with Delta could be both good and bad for JAL and Japan. "If Delta wins in this race, the balance between the three alliances will be lost," said Tozaki. "The choice [of airlines] for the Japanese people will be reduced." He said JAL, which reportedly will drop at least 34 routes as part of its bankruptcy restructuring, could be asked to cut trans-Pacific services to the US -- one of Japan's largest international markets -- and to beef up services to Asia.

Makoto Murayama, a senior analyst at Nomura in Tokyo, agrees with Tozaki that slots and rights to fly beyond Japan could be one reason for the government's preference for Delta and Skyteam, but said it is unlikely to be the only reason. "A Delta-JAL alliance would have the largest share of trans-Pacific traffic," he said. "By joining Delta, JAL would receive more traffic and [hopefully] recover faster."

American currently has slots for 35 flights per week (or five daily flights) at Narita Airport, but no rights to fly beyond the airport into Japan. If JAL were to stay in the Oneworld alliance with American, the Japanese government would have no leverage to reduce the number of slots US carriers have at its main airport.

What has not come up in the discussions about the Japanese government's decision-making process is whether or not JAL and its future alliance partner would be able to receive antitrust immunity for flights between the US and Japan. This issue has been hotly debated in the US press and argued about by both American and Delta, but in Japan it appears to have taken a back seat to reviving the country's flag carrier and to reducing the hub operations of US carriers at Narita Airport.

The government of Prime Minister Yukio Hatoyama is gambling considerable political capital on JAL. By allowing the airline to enter into bankruptcy last month, it is letting one of Japan Inc's largest and best known brands risk insolvency. Minister of transport Seiji Maehara has been quoted as saying that the government is not trying to find a solution for the airline, but with so much on the line for the four-month old administration, JAL's return to profitability is almost a must for the government.

"The Japanese government injected taxpayer money [into JAL]," said Murayama. "They can't afford for them to fail again."

The final decision of whether JAL stays in Oneworld with American or switches to Skyteam with Delta will ultimately be made by the airline's management and the Enterprise Turnaround Initiative Corporation (ETIC), which is acting as trustee of the airline while it operates under bankruptcy protection. The opinion of the airline's new chief executive, Kazuo Inamori, who officially starts today, is unknown, but he is reported to agree with the bureaucrats at Japan's ministry of land, infrastructure, transport and tourism in preferring Delta's offer.

JAL's current management reportedly prefers to stay part of Oneworld. This preference could be due to any number of reasons, including a Japanese disinclination for sudden change and the cost that switching alliances would place on the bankrupt airline. A switch to Skyteam would mean changing everything from its reservation system to rebranding its aircraft.

"Senior management's predilection to remain with Oneworld has been over-ridden by the government and the investors providing financing," said Peter Harbison, executive chairman of the Centre for Asia-Pacific Aviation. "The creditors and owners of JAL should not be making calls on the airline's operational future."

However, asked what airline he thought JAL should form an alliance with, Harbison said he preferred Delta.

Of course, it's not over until the fat lady sings, or in JAL's case, until Inamori and the ETIC decides. Sources say American and Delta met with Inamori this past Thursday in Tokyo to discuss their respective alliance offers. Now, after a fierce, several month-long bidding war in the midst of an industry-wide slump, all the parties can do is sit back and wait for the Tokyo bureaucrats to make their decision.

© Haymarket Media Limited. All rights reserved.



I think I was right, it really is all about the slots. We want to keep as many as we can, and now it seems JAL may want some or to give some of ours away. Good old LM better not give any away. I thought JAL was the one in trouble??? We have a guaranteed number of slots we have to keep in our Joint Contract we just signed, and only LM could try to give those away. Don't do it LM, just don't do it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[andyd]

would it be a good deal to trade a few NRT slots for Hanida slots...even swap...AND pick up the int'l routes they are dropping along with some heavy metal on the cheap?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think I was right, it really is all about the slots. We want to keep as many as we can, and now it seems JAL may want some or to give some of ours away. Good old LM better not give any away. I thought JAL was the one in trouble??? We have a guaranteed number of slots we have to keep in our Joint Contract we just signed, and only LM could try to give those away. Don't do it LM, just don't do it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

First, the Open Skies accord WILL effect these rights. I am sure that politically they do not want to admit it. Joint ventures make a lot of these rights null anyway.

Second, as you have indicated slots are very important. Actually NWA's initial slots were at Haneda and were moved to NRT at the request of the Japanese government. It does not appear that they want to entertain the idea of us moving some or all of those slots back. They want Haneda for home turf advantage.

Third, the only real way to combat this "protectionist" element of the open skies that our government has agreed to is to partner with JAL or ANA. Anyone else will just not have the access. Hence where we are with JAL today.

As you know Haneda is close, and a lot more accessible than NRT. Yes, there is a high speed train, but ppl are about convenience. It will put a major damper on our NRT operation if we cannot have some sort of access to Haneda beyond the four slots a day that the OPEN Skies Accord is giving US carriers.

Andyd:
would it be a good deal to trade a few NRT slots for Haneda slots...even swap...AND pick up the int'l routes they are dropping along with some heavy metal on the cheap?

Read above. It would be great if we could just swap back. If the Japanese government allowed that, we would not need JAL. They are being protectionists. Open Skies should allow us unlimited access to Haneda, but the current form that the US government has agreed to does not.

As for what routes we get and what planes. There is rumor, and good rumor. Simply, it is just rumor until everyone signs on the dotted line. From the initial leanings, it appears that we may give up a few of the Beach destinations for some ULH flying. That would be an increase of staffing.


I assume we will see an official announcement after the MEC meeting where the whole Council give its direction to the MEC Leadership who will in turn direct the negotiating committee to arrive at at TA for this JV. If it falls apart, it falls apart. There are other options.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

would it be a good deal to trade a few NRT slots for Haneda slots...even swap...AND pick up the int'l routes they are dropping along with some heavy metal on the cheap?

There is very little chance to more access to slots in Haneda. Narita is another story because ANA is interested in expanding more their China, SE Asia and Europe structure and not so much to the US

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So when is the ribbon cutting ceremony with JAL and DAL?

 

[400ADude]

Those Delta slots sound like the ones in Vegas. The kind you lose a lot of money on. Seriously what good is a slot if you can't turn a profit. Just how long can this go on??

 

[FDJ2]

We have a guaranteed number of slots we have to keep in our Joint Contract we just signed, and only LM could try to give those away. Don't do it LM, just don't do it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

How many slots do we have in our "joint contract". I suppose you mean JCBA?

How much NRT flying is contractualy protected?

 

[Acey]

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T100202006378.htm

"
With regard to alliance talks with Delta Air Lines, Onishi said, "Instead of being bound up by past discussions, we're currently debating the issue from scratch under the new management," indicating that the basic agreement reached with Delta may be scrapped.


Meanwhile, Inamori said, "As the [Delta Air Lines] issue has been discussed within the company for some time, we'd like to reach a conclusion as soon as possible," suggesting he will take seriously the discussions already held by JAL."


Acey

 

[fflyerworld]

Looks like the world turns again - now in favor or AA over DL for JAL...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...5051292573940862.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

This may be only a leak from the AA side to create more drama in the process. Who knows? I kinda thought this was a done deal with DL - maybe it is and maybe it isn't!!