crw overrun transcript

[CX880]

I feel bad for the FO. We're put in a tough position when we see Captains screwing up. Sometimes the bigger call is on the FO--when to intercede.

I think the FO would not have been saved either way. Bottom line, the take off roll should never have started since they didn't do the checklists properly. He could have said "abort abort, flaps not set" to CYA, but even then you never know.

 

[booo]

I'm confused why did he get config spoilers?

It's a glitch in the system. On takeoff, when certain parameters are met (WOW, airspeed, power lever position,...) the airplane thinks it's going to takeoff. Suddenly the throttles are slammed to flight idle and the position of the power levers sends an automatic message for the spoilers to deploy thinking that it's time too abort, dump the lift and maximize braking. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the fuel controllers are scheduling the fuel (gently) to idle, but there is a "lag" in engine speed (it's jet engine, right?). While the the engines spool down from takeoff setting to below a certain % (77.9?), the computer is confused: The spoilers are up but we still have a lot of power! Oh,no! Send a "config spoilers" message! When the engine speed drops below the trigger RPM the message on the EICAS goes away since the conflict of engine speed/spoiler position is no longer there, leaving the crew with a WTF? moment. But the warning system doesn't have a "never mind, my bad" call out.

 

[beagle pilot]

I feel bad for the FO. We're put in a tough position when we see Captains screwing up. Sometimes the bigger call is on the FO--when to intercede.

True, but in this case it appears the FO not only had ample opportunity to catch and correct errors, but was also part of the problem.

If a Captain is breaking sterile cockpit talking about his car, boat, golf handicap, etc, the FO doesn't have to join in the discussion. He/she could just go "a-hummm" while doing the checklists, rechecking items and monitoring both inside and outside the cockpit. Anyone who has been married for more than five years knows exactly what I mean.

 

[booo]

Looking at the reports, here are some interesting timeline events:

- V1 was called at 16:13:21 and the "sound of engine RPM decreasing" was noted at 16:13:32? What was going on between V1 and 11 whole seconds later when he decided to finally slam the thrust levers back? 11 seconds is a long ass time during a takeoff roll. Sh** I've done entire takeoff rolls that last 11 seconds.

- 80 knots was called at 16:13:10, and 6 seconds later he fumbles with the flaps.

I feel bad for the FO. We're put in a tough position when we see Captains screwing up. Sometimes the bigger call is on the FO--when to intercede.

Not 11 seconds, just (just?) 8 seconds. The "config spoilers" warning was set off when the power levers hit flight idle. "sound of engine RPM decreasing" took three seconds due to the lag in jet engines response.

As for the F/O........he did set the flaps incorrectly. And he may (may!) have violated sterile cockpit. As the non flying pilot he's supposed to be "outside" the cockpit during takeoff. Then the Captain went "rogue" on him and moved the flap handle without telling the F/O. It was the Captains circus from there. The Captain aborts, again without communicating. The F/O was just along for the ride as far as aircraft control. He did have the presence of mind to advise the tower of the abort, so he was still in the game After the fact, the F/O performs admirably, and leads the Captain through the "here and now" issues as the Captain is involved in CYA mode.

 

[Abernathy]

You're right about the FO setting the flaps incorrectly (and, in that sense, being responsible for starting this whole process).

As far as sterile cockpit, the simple fact is that it IS there for a reason. Things get missed all the time when I'm sitting next to chatterbox in the left seat and he's busy telling me about why we need a Fair Tax system while I'm trying to run through a T/O brief in my head.

 

[OurMoney1]

The one thing that might save him is the immediate action item for T/O config wng is T/O discontinue immediatly. Thus he followed company procedure. Of course, the company NEVER intended for you to reconfig the a/c during T/O roll.

Nothing should "save" him, except my last point. Somewhere I saw that he was a Check Airman of some level and should have known better than others of the following:

1) He should have known better than to reconfigure on the takeoff roll. F/O calls 80 knots, 1 second later he responds "checked". 5 seconds later someone notices that the flaps are at 8 and not 20 degrees as briefed and selects flaps 20. The runway he was taking off on is up slope with with a hump, no view of the departure end and is relatively short, but barring an engine failure no obstacles to be concerned with, just relatively short, therefore flaps 20. Better than reconfig on the roll,a check airman should have known to just add 12 knots to V1/VR speeds bugged and rotated at that speed or if necessary, gently rotate at the fixed distance markers (last 1000 feet) and ride it out. Non event! In Charlie West if you clear the runway and the EMAS and the (amended) ALS system, you instantly have 400 feet more altitude due to the terrain.

2) As a pilot in the 200,and as a Check Airman, he should have known that he would would get a "config flaps" warning if the flaps were not at 8 or at 20. He made the decision to change configuration, and with 4500+ hours in type he should have known the consequences, "config flaps" while the flaps were in transit.

3) 8 seconds after the F/O calls "V1" we get "config spoilers". He has brought the power levers to flight idle, yet the fuel controllers lag (to protect the engines) have the the engine speed higher than 77.9% (?). The power lever position (flight idle/reverse) sends the spoilers up for the abort but the engines RPM are still above the threshold and give a spurious warning. He should have known not to abort above V1, and especially not on a short runway. 8 Seconds?

4) After the fact he has no idea what to do. The F/O talks him into shutting down the engines, no evac plan in state, he goes into CYA mode.

Has he not learned anything in nearly 10000 hours? Or was he brain dead? Fatigued? Yes the F word. They both had a light schedule for the week before, but they both had flown excessive hours in the previous year, and fatigue (CHRONICALLY TIRED) takes a lot longer to recover from than most think.

Bad decisions? YES. Why? Stupid or Fatigued? Your call!

Your a huge tool.

 

[svcta]

Your a huge tool.

So you're the one.

 

[Spoolingbyu]

flaps do matter. Disregard misconfig? WHAT? WTF.

Again you are using the mentality that it's safer to take it to the sky then to deal with it on the ground, that's what caused this accident. All he had to do was abort but instead he added flaps so they could get out of there and not miss the flow window. If you're on the takeoff roll and you notice that flaps aren't set, doesn't matter if they're 0 or 8, it's an automatic abort. However, if the CA had enough reflex to continue the roll and add flaps then he should have known to disregard flaps misconfig warning and continued. Again the take off phase is not a "set it and forget it" phase of flight, there are different segments which you need to pay attention to the airplane and the roll.

Actually you are disproving your point and proving my point. It IS safer to take to the sky. You know the whole V1, Vr, V2 thingy? V1 is decision speed. After which you have decided to take to the air. Welcome to transport-category aircraft. They went off the end, they didn't crash 10 miles after departing the airport into terrain. He decided to deal with it on the ground (after V1 I should also emphasize) and THAT is what caused the accident.

Here's another refresher at what big boys in transport category airplanes do:

0-80 Abort for any reason. He did not do this.

80-V1 Abort only for a very short list (depending on your company SOP). Instead of aborting, he chose to ***k with the flap handle. If he had initiated the abort in this range, I bet you it's a non-event and they taxi back for another try.

after V1 it is an in-flight emergency. He did initiate the reduction in thrust after V1. This is an abort after V1, and as you can see, the bad decision to stay on the ground sent them off the end.

You'll find that it is safer to take to the air after 80 for most reasons and obviously mandatory after V1.

I'd say a majority of the other professional pilots in this thread agree and are repeating the same thing I am saying.

It has been mentioned that T/O config warning is an AUTOMATIC abort at PSA. Flaps 0 or boards out? Unflyable. That's why those are automatic. Abort for those at ANY time up to V1.

But is flaps 8 set when 20 should be or 20 when 8 should be set an "automatic" item? I doubt it. This is a question for the PSAers. It doesn't make the airplane unflyable. Take to the air.

Booo makes a great point. Being a check airman, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN to just fly to flap 8 Vr and fly away. Add 12 knots or whatever it is and go. Any half-awake PSA FO with 100 hours in the CRJ knows that. It was too late to do anything but.

And CX880 don't scream "short runway 6300 feet blah blah blah" at me. At CRW I'd say on a committed takeoff (which they were by the time he decided to do anything about it) you have a better chance of survival by trimming the weeds off the end runway than flaps 8 accelerate-stop performance in < 6300 feet.

 

[buscap]

All good points, and one to add. That airplane's performance is designed to fly out of that short runway, on one engine.

Now granted, the improper flap configuration negates that planning, but anyone who has flown a hard winged RJ out of there; upon rotation your ability to climb far outweighs your ability to stop.

The nature of v1 must be completely understood in order to comprehend the dangers of trying to stop an aircraft at any speed near it, let alone past it.

If you are gonna have the nads to reinvent the higher than v1 wheel, you'd better have the nads to get that thing in the air.

 

[CX880]

Actually you are disproving your point and proving my point. It IS safer to take to the sky. You know the whole V1, Vr, V2 thingy? V1 is decision speed. After which you have decided to take to the air. Welcome to transport-category aircraft. They went off the end, they didn't crash 10 miles after departing the airport into terrain. He decided to deal with it on the ground (after V1 I should also emphasize) and THAT is what caused the accident.

.

Actually what caused the accident was not aborting rather deciding to continue when he saw that flaps were not set. What happened after V1 is another issue and I'm not saying at that point it's safer to abort than continue.