Could this help a SLI? NW/DL

[General Lee]

The wrinkle in that plan was another portion of the NWA scope.

It was actually a two tiered scope, with half the large RJs (the "Lower Cap") being available to any Airlink operator, and the other half (the "Upper Cap"), being available to a wholly owned Airlink (Compass, in this case).

You're right...it was expected that Compass would eventually be sold. However, in order to do so, and remain within the provisions of Section 1, 10 DC-9 replacement aircraft MUST be in operational service at the mainline.

In other words, no DC-9 replacement, no selling of Compass. There are additional roll-back provisions to protect scope after the spin off.

A 36 aircraft airline is a money loser. With all the duplication of effort (MX, admin, ect), you can't amortize the fixed cost out over a large fleet like bigger outfits.

It was thought at the time if you shackled NWA financially, you'd forced them to get a DC-9 replacement, and keep the flying in-house.

They were right...sort of. Compass has become somewhat of an albatross for NWA...can't expand it, can't sell it, can't transfer the flying to anyone else.

With the drawdown of some NB flying, the RJ cap comes into play, and both XJ and Compass were looking at cancelled orders, which made the cost side of things even worse for Compass.

Had the DAL thing not come down the pike, management would have been forced to curtail the 76 seat flying, get a DC-9 replacement or bring the 76 seat flying to the mainline. There was starting to be some serious talk about the latter happening, which, when coupled to the XJ flow through, would have been good for EVERYONE.

But, as Occam says, OBE.

If you guys sell out scope just to make a point, then, that's just stupid. Once sold, you never get it back, because management KNOWS the true value of it. And I'm sure you know, Fins, that price is too high for many mainline guys to willingly pay.

Nu

I would be highly shocked if Dalpa sold the 100 seaters down the river. Really. We fought hard to get those pay rates in BK. I think MOAK would have some major explaining to do. Let's just wait to see what happens I guess. But, in the meantime, you might want to get your negotiators over to ATL to solve some of YOUR problems. Did you see the price of oil today? I think this merger may happen, with or without your participation.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

There is no way that's going to happen, nor should it. There is risk involved in going to another company, and no rational, fair way to instantly eliminate that risk without giving the mother of all windfalls to some at the expense of others. A senior prop pilot gets hired by a legacy and instantly bids 747 Captain? Riiiiight. Never going to happen, nor should it.

at what point did you start believing that you were better than a turboprop captain?

Im a legacy FO now- but i was at my best commanding a turboprop in and out of the northeast.

If you want it to be competitive- then let competition work for us. Get seniority out of the equation altogether-- and let our unions work on raising standards and gaining leverage- let us each work our own contracts and we'd be better off than we are today-- Seriously- if our "union" industry is going to be divided where we all just look out for ourselves- then let me look out for myself- no union can look out for me, better than me. What i don't like is the split personality going on here. You want all the negatives of competition w/ none of the positives, while at the same time having all the negatives of unionization w/ none of it's positives either.

If you sit, sit. Stand, stand. Stop F***ing waffling between the two. Are we a united industry or are we not?

 

[Noserider76]

If you guys sell out scope just to make a point, then, that's just stupid. Once sold, you never get it back, because management KNOWS the true value of it. And I'm sure you know, Fins, that price is too high for many mainline guys to willingly pay.

Nu

I doubt this has anything to do with selling out any more flying. Is it possible that DALPA has stronger merger/fragmentation/scope language against allowing the company to operate as two separate carriers during an integration period? The company may need to buy DALPA off in order to complete the merger and operate the companies separately until an operational integration can happen. Just a guess, but I can almost guarantee we're not talking about relaxing scope on aircraft size/numbers.

Plan A was integrating the seniority list pre-merger with bennies for all. Plan B may be running this as two companies until it can be integrated. Plan C scares me even more.

 

[MDPilot]

I doubt this has anything to do with selling out any more flying. Is it possible that DALPA has stronger merger/fragmentation/scope language against allowing the company to operate as two separate carriers during an integration period? The company may need to buy DALPA off in order to complete the merger and operate the companies separately until an operational integration can happen. Just a guess, but I can almost guarantee we're not talking about relaxing scope on aircraft size/numbers.

Plan A was integrating the seniority list pre-merger with bennies for all. Plan B may be running this as two companies until it can be integrated. Plan C scares me even more.

Bingo!! Give the man a Kewpie doll!!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I believe what you say is very close to the truth Noserider.
Scope will always be in play, but if you recall DAL was willing to stop the 76 seat limit where it is today. That should tell you something about their business plan.

 

[waveflyer]

I would be highly shocked if Dalpa sold the 100 seaters down the river. Really. We fought hard to get those pay rates in BK. I think MOAK would have some major explaining to do. Let's just wait to see what happens I guess. But, in the meantime, you might want to get your negotiators over to ATL to solve some of YOUR problems. Did you see the price of oil today? I think this merger may happen, with or without your participation.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well i WAS shocked that after years and years of screwing up the scope game- just as info was coming out that 50 seaters were a dinosaur- that DALPA sold out on 76 seat jets. Completely sold out junior pilots. Noone at the regional level wants to fly those FOR their sh!tty regional and the junior at DAL are now exposed to furlough when the CRJ900 should have been a new a/c on the property w/ subsequent hiring and a gain in seniority to all the mainline pilots.

Why should i believe you when you say DALPA wouldn't scope out any more? Seniority is bu!!sh!t in this environment.

 

[IronCityBlue]

at what point did you start believing that you were better than a turboprop captain?

Im a legacy FO now- but i was at my best commanding a turboprop in and out of the northeast.

If you want it to be competitive- then let competition work for us. Get seniority out of the equation altogether-- and let our unions work on raising standards and gaining leverage- let us each work our own contracts and we'd be better off than we are today-- Seriously- if our "union" industry is going to be divided where we all just look out for ourselves- then let me look out for myself- no union can look out for me, better than me. What i don't like is the split personality going on here. You want all the negatives of competition w/ none of the positives, while at the same time having all the negatives of unionization w/ none of it's positives either.

If you sit, sit. Stand, stand. Stop F***ing waffling between the two. Are we a united industry or are we not?

Then we both agree that a single nationwide list is a bad idea. You want a 100,000+ pilot free for all, which I do not, but we at least agree that one seniority list is not the best idea. And its not about being "better" than a turbo prop Captain. Its a matter of staying at a turbo prop operator for 25 years and suddenly jumping to the top of a legacy list because you have the "seniority" to do so.

By your explanation, you clearly would be against that. The prop Captain may be shizzle hot at 10 minute turns and X-wind landings and 10 legs a day, all things that are challenging, but that's not what 777 pilots do. Going to work for an airline and being the bottom pilot for most of your career because uber senior guys constantly get hired in on top of you is not an idea I think you will get a whole lot of support for.

And even if you did, good luck forcing management to agree to it.

 

[IronCityBlue]

Well i WAS shocked that after years and years of screwing up the scope game- just as info was coming out that 50 seaters were a dinosaur- that DALPA sold out on 76 seat jets. Completely sold out junior pilots. Noone at the regional level wants to fly those FOR their sh!tty regional and the junior at DAL are now exposed to furlough when the CRJ900 should have been a new a/c on the property w/ subsequent hiring and a gain in seniority to all the mainline pilots.

Why should i believe you when you say DALPA wouldn't scope out any more? Seniority is bu!!sh!t in this environment.

You're right about pilot short-sightedness. I wouldn't say seniority is BS though. Seniority means everything. Its being junior that sucks. Scope relief, in any ammount, endangers the junior severely.

 

[clippyrip]

You're right about pilot short-sightedness. I wouldn't say seniority is BS though. Seniority means everything. Its being junior that sucks. Scope relief, in any ammount, endangers the junior severely.

The Delta pilots are smart enough not to agree to a union busting contract with a relaxed scope.

 

[waveflyer]

The Delta pilots are smart enough not to agree to a union busting contract with a relaxed scope.

They already did.
It's just the people who hold a vote in DALPA/UALPA/every ALPA- don't care b/c it's not them who are affected. But ask those who were furloughed to sit right seat for 26 year old rj captains- only to be recalled and under the furloughed microscope again b/c the economy is tanking and fuel's $100/barrel. ??

How many legacy pilots are on this board, got their opportunity originally flying Fokker's or DC-9s? The only difference between you and me is that you're union hadn't completely sold you out when you were young. How do you reconcile that you have a right to your seniority and longevity while a young pilot does not?