Corporate Dorks

[AZ Typed]

http://web.nbaa.org/public/ops/safety/20041130.php


Now...... I'm no Alvin Einstein (being a pt91 corporate pilot an' all)....but that column on the graph at the very bottom says that Airlines experienced an average of .310 accidents per 100,000hrs in 2003. And the next column over....the one that says Corporate Executive has a number .028 accidents per 100,000hrs.
I'm not too good with numbers that got periods in them. Isn't .028 less?

Anyway.....I gotta get back to studying approach plates. Does anyone know where I can find the Decision Height on the Laguardia River Visual chart?

Great Find! Unfortunately, it's published by the corporate friendly aviation society: NBAA.

Folks - I'm not saying corporte is dangerous. What I am saying is that seeing both 121 and 135/91 operations - from what I've seen, I'm not impressed with 135/91 operations. The root of the problem (here's my $.02) is Flight Saftey and the others who have no standard procedures for the aircraft they teach. They don't teach briefings, flows, proper use of checklists, preflight planning, etc. It's assumed that the pilots at these training centers are "good" since they have "made it this far." But in truth, many of us were never trained correctly or have developed bad habits over time. The result is half-arsed procedures or none at all. I've met many folks on the road: "yeah, I fly with this guy in his 421 because he isn't multi-rated, but he logs the time and then he's going to get the rating so his insurance will sign him off". That's what we have out there in 91. Or: shooting approaches with minimual brief, taking off without knowing what the DP is, flying at 410 while one guy is in back vaccuming and the other has no 02 - give me a break. It's not my operation only - I have talked with many friends / associates in the 135/91 business and all the stories match up. Again - it goes back to the lax standards at the training centers, I think.

I'll put my family on an airliner because I know the training, oversight, and standards they are held to in 121. I will not put my family on a chartered jet I'm not flying because...again...I know the training, oversight, and standards they are held to in 135/91. I know, I'm crazy...go ahead and tear me apart now.

AZT

 

[G100driver]

AZ .... I hate to admit it but you are very correct in many things.

One of the biggest problems in our (91 corporate flying) is many of the guys who have been in business for years were guys that were passed up or chose not to fly for the airlines. Many of them have SEVERE problems. Those problems which you mentioned. Many of these guys are now the leaders .... scary!

You can research and read posts from guys that are almost bragging about doing 17 hour days. The CP of a trendy retail home store located in Napa valley told me with pride that they fly from their home base to Bombay with one crew and one tech stop (no crew swap). Talk about a bunch of moron's.

If we do not police ourselves and demand that we as corporate operators hold our selves to a higher standard this will continue to be the case. The only way for change, IMHO, is for the insurance carriers to demand that flight departments hold themselves to an IS-BAO standard and be subject to audit. Another area need to change is the FSI mentality. Some people get types who should not allowed to fly 152's. At least the airlines weed out the guys with SEVERE problems.

With that said, however, there are MANY professional flight departments that do indeed hold themselves to a standard of professionalism and safety. Not all are run by derelicts that think 17 hour days are just fine (22 in the case of the home store).

We are not all the same. (I would put my family on a TAG aircraft any day .... if I could afford it).

 

[Gulfstream 200]

AZ-

there are retards in every part - 91/135/121

Put your family on an airliner anyday? how bout' Pinnacle?

"410 it dude"...do a search here for those transcripts then tell me again how good airline training is....that was no accident, it was a suicide, and if any pax were on board you could call it a murder.

.

FSI is not there to teach SOP's your companys training department is.

The shotty outfits your describe certainly are not the norm in corporate or charter flying. Do they exist? sure....just the same as complete idiots winding up at the controls of that RJ with your family aboard.

 

[cherokee]

I find it interesting that AZ typed was mentioning a little while back how he flew with a guy who took off from Aspen with no idea what the DP was, however, AZ, who was sitting right next to him didn't say a word about the briefing as well. Perhaps you should look at yourself and not just point fingers. Obviously the captain in that instance was negligent, but so were you, you're not just a warm body sitting there...speak up!

And G200 makes a great point about SOP's. FSI and Simuflite are not there to teach SOP's because they vary from company to company, that is what the training department of your company is there for.

I know I would feel more comfortable having my family fly at most 135/91 than I would at many 121's. (500 hour pilot in an RJ, are you kidding me?) Obviously some outfits are not great, but many are certified to higher standards such as Wyvern, ARGUS, etc. You paint with way to wide of brush.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Yeah...what they said!

You paint with way to wide of a brush.

...and take notes with a very small pencil!

Great Find! Unfortunately, it's published by the corporate friendly aviation society: NBAA

...if you had been paying attention....The numbers that I quoted were for pt91/Corporate. Read the whole chart. In the same year (2003) the same "corporate smooching aviation society", states that pt135/non-sheduled was 8 times better at crashing than 121(that would be column two, I believe).
As has been stated, you probably shouldn't put a blanket statement like that over all of corporate aviation.
The first 135 that I flew for was one of the best prepared best trained flight departments in aviation. At my last 91, by comparison, one of the interview questions ( for the Lear Captain's position!), was "explain in detail, how to jump-start a car."
Like someone said earlier, I can dig up plenty of stories of drunk airline pilots or find that great thread that was here, with the "121-UberPilots" reading the paper in the climb, while the shaker was going off. But I don't consider that a fair representation.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I realize that I am not the world's leading authority on things, but I have flown the same jet under 91, 135, and 121. The biggest challenge to me has been by *FAR* the Part 91 stuff.

The best Captains in 121 were all former corporate guys. They knew what was going on well outside the box. They were incredible big picture people. Remember, in 121 the variables are significantly reduced. Same city pairs...same routes, arrivals, approaches...dispatch holding your hand the whole way. I am not denegrating 121 pilots, but they have it much easier and more consistent than most 91/135 folks.

I thought I was pretty squared away but coming into a 91/135 environment was a real eye opener. I learned and saw more in three weeks here than I did in three years of 121 flying. Same plane, same procedures. Totally different animal.

My hat is off to the Corporate Dorks. You impress me daily.

 

[LegacyDriver]

He's right. He's VERY right. I left 121 for 135 and you have to be kidding me! I will never put my family on a chartered jet. I hear first hand it's the same at Options / Netjets / Blah Blah Blah. This guy I flew with yesterday asked me if a Localizer approach was precision (so he could log it). HOLY HELL. It's no wonder the Feds are a buch of Nazis...135 / 91 is a big fat joke. Like I said...if I aint flyin it...my family won't be on it!!! (charter, that is).

AZT

Yeah, I could say the same thing about the regional I used to work at. I picked up an ERJ from a crew that had flown *FOUR* LEGS with the crew oxygen bottle turned off. Imagine blowing a window out at FL370 and not having your oxygen on, sealed behind a bullet-proof door. That's friggin' brilliant!

The point is, nobody is perfect.

 

[Lead Sled]

The best Captains in 121 were all former corporate guys. They knew what was going on well outside the box. They were incredible big picture people. Remember, in 121 the variables are significantly reduced. Same city pairs...same routes, arrivals, approaches...dispatch holding your hand the whole way. I am not denegrating 121 pilots, but they have it much easier and more consistent than most 91/135 folks.

I thought I was pretty squared away but coming into a 91/135 environment was a real eye opener. I learned and saw more in three weeks here than I did in three years of 121 flying. Same plane, same procedures. Totally different animal.

For what it's worth (Probably not very much. ) here's my thoughts...

I really get annoyed when 135/91 operators try to lump themselves into the same mold as a straight 91 corporate operation. In most cases, any similarities are purely coincidental.

Once you've been through initial and have taken the type ride, recurrent training (for Part 91 operators) is "to proficiency" and the annual proficiency check is normally done "progressively" - meaning that the instructor/PPE simply checks off the boxes as you successfully demonstrate each maneuver during the training. The training for Part 135 and many Part 121 crews is different - you train to a specific syllabus then you take a sim check. I've been on the receiving end of both types of programs and the "train to proficiency / progressive check" seems to provide, point for point, the most training coupled with the best overall results. I understand that the FAA is allowing some 121 operaters the leeway to do what 91 operators have been doing for decades.

When I first started flying the airplane I currently fly, it was on a 135 certificate and we had to jumb through all of the hoops to get up and running on the certificate. I had an initial and something like 16 recurrents under my belt at the time. I didn't expect to have any problems at the check ride and I didn't, but I was really annoyed at the "process". It boiled down to this - the 135 guys follw a very specific training program and get what amounts to 2 days of practice in order to prepare for the checkride on the 3rd day. Part 91 guys get 3 days of training. The pilot proficiency check is done progressively. The bottom line is that dollar for dollar, there is absolutely no comparison between the training for 135 and 91 at the same school.

"Pure" 91 operators are only required to attend recurrent training annually, however, I know of few crews that "train to the minimums". The majority of crews attend recurrent on a 6-month interval. For the most part, operators of corporate jets train with one of two providers - FlightSafety or Simuflight. Both companies provide top notch training. (In fact, many airlines contract with FlightSafety to provide their training.) In addition to the specific aircraft systems and simulator recurrent training that we get, we also got company paid periodic training on many other things such as first aid and CPR, high altitude physiology and altitude chamber visits, weather radar courses, aerobatics and extreme unusual attitude recovery training, survival training, open water ditching, and international operations... The list goes on and on. Granted, the commercial operators are now being required to take some of these courses as well, but Corporate flight departments are typically not considered "profit centers" and typically there is a little more latitude for the consideration of advanced training. This is opposed to many (but not all) 121 and 135 operators where the training goal becomes one of complying with the various minimum requirements of the FAR's. Once that is done then it's off to the line.

Oh well, I'm so glad we got the airplane out of 135, I was beginning to get rusty.

'Sled

 

[AZ Typed]

I find it interesting that AZ typed was mentioning a little while back how he flew with a guy who took off from Aspen with no idea what the DP was, however, AZ, who was sitting right next to him didn't say a word about the briefing as well. Perhaps you should look at yourself and not just point fingers. Obviously the captain in that instance was negligent, but so were you, you're not just a warm body sitting there...speak up!

I did - and we flew it fine.

I agree with those of you that say their are morons 91/121/135. Their are morons in all seats, all airplanes, under all rules. AND Their are GREAT guys/gals in all seats in all planes flying under all rules.

My major hickup is that in 121 their are PROCEDURES. And it's these procedures that make it so any 500 hour monkey can fly the airplane safely. Look at the military - they toss folks into F16s with low hours, too. Why does it work? PROCEDURES that are designed, taught, and practiced. It's the procedures that contribute significantly to the safety of the operation.

In 135 - I just haven't been impressed with the procedures. What procedures I've seen have been very half-arsed and poorly thought out. You're lucky to complete a checklist. I understand when you have passengers waiting to get out on the ramp after landing - shut it down. But during a low-vis takeoff out of the mountains with snow, contaminated runway, and windshear - training of procedures and practicing of those procedures will add that much more to the safety and positive outcome of the operation. In another example, aborting before 90 (it's supposed to be 80) and V1 - the criteria change with every departure. How come I hear the same brief for every runway, EVERY time?

I'm not pointing any fingers like some folkson here claim. I'm just shocked that 135/91 is so different. A whole different ball game. And for the record: I like it better than 121!!!

AZT

 

[semperfido]

The CP of a trendy retail home store located in Napa valley told me with pride that they fly from their home base to Bombay with one crew and one tech stop (no crew swap). Talk about a bunch of moron's.

how many in the one crew?