Corporate Dorks

[757BBJ_Capt]

Look at the military - they toss folks into F16s with low hours, too. Why does it work? PROCEDURES that are designed, taught, and practiced. It's the procedures that contribute significantly to the safety of the operation.

Training is probably a better word to use.
Procedures would be usless without the training. It's the money (I think 2M is the # per pilot) the military spends on a pilot to train him/her. That's why it works.

 

[G100driver]

how many in the one crew?

2 pilots no relief. The CP told me how they would take turns going to the crew rest station and take a quickie nap when they got tired.

Pathetic.

 

[G100driver]

Oh well, I'm so glad we got the airplane out of 135, I was beginning to get rusty.

'Sled

Amazing how good life can be!!! Congratulations! It will even get better when you go to HI without looking at the fuel gauge and you can stand up in galley pour yourself a cup of coffee. Or even better yet, have the FA get you a cup.

Cheers.

 

[semperfido]

2 pilots no relief. The CP told me how they would take turns going to the crew rest station and take a quickie nap when they got tired.

Pathetic.

i would have to agree with you. we do trips like you describe all the time, but we have three. two would not work.

 

[Lead Sled]

Amazing how good life can be!!! Congratulations! It will even get better when you go to HI without looking at the fuel gauge and you can stand up in galley pour yourself a cup of coffee. Or even better yet, have the FA get you a cup.

I've been there and done that. We're getting ready to do it again.

'Sled

 

[chriskcmo]

Once you've been through initial and have taken the type ride, recurrent training (for Part 91 operators) is "to proficiency" and the annual proficiency check is normally done "progressively" - meaning that the instructor/PPE simply checks off the boxes as you successfully demonstrate each maneuver during the training. The training for Part 135 and many Part 121 crews is different - you train to a specific syllabus then you take a sim check. I've been on the receiving end of both types of programs and the "train to proficiency / progressive check" seems to provide, point for point, the most training coupled with the best overall results. I understand that the FAA is allowing some 121 operaters the leeway to do what 91 operators have been doing for decades.

When I first started flying the airplane I currently fly, it was on a 135 certificate and we had to jumb through all of the hoops to get up and running on the certificate. I had an initial and something like 16 recurrents under my belt at the time. I didn't expect to have any problems at the check ride and I didn't, but I was really annoyed at the "process". It boiled down to this - the 135 guys follw a very specific training program and get what amounts to 2 days of practice in order to prepare for the checkride on the 3rd day. Part 91 guys get 3 days of training. The pilot proficiency check is done progressively. The bottom line is that dollar for dollar, there is absolutely no comparison between the training for 135 and 91 at the same school.

"Pure" 91 operators are only required to attend recurrent training annually, however, I know of few crews that "train to the minimums". The majority of crews attend recurrent on a 6-month interval. For the most part, operators of corporate jets train with one of two providers - FlightSafety or Simuflight. Both companies provide top notch training. (In fact, many airlines contract with FlightSafety to provide their training.) In addition to the specific aircraft systems and simulator recurrent training that we get, we also got company paid periodic training on many other things such as first aid and CPR, high altitude physiology and altitude chamber visits, weather radar courses, aerobatics and extreme unusual attitude recovery training, survival training, open water ditching, and international operations... The list goes on and on. Granted, the commercial operators are now being required to take some of these courses as well, but Corporate flight departments are typically not considered "profit centers" and typically there is a little more latitude for the consideration of advanced training. This is opposed to many (but not all) 121 and 135 operators where the training goal becomes one of complying with the various minimum requirements of the FAR's. Once that is done then it's off to the line.

Oh well, I'm so glad we got the airplane out of 135, I was beginning to get rusty.

'Sled

The 135 operator I work for now has our Training Program written so that we are required to train to proficiency, not a set number of hours. We also go to Simcom for initial training and once a year for recurrent. The company also provides additional training like you mentioned. All of the pilots are going to First Aid, CPR, and AED training later this summer.

Of course, I realize that not all 135 companies do things this way, and that in all reality, we're probably not the norm.

 

[100LL... Again!]

IF and WHEN a 121 operation is better than a 135 operations, it is because of the corporate culture, which always starts from the top.

A small 2 or 3 pilot operator has the most POTENTIAL to be unregulated because of the small 'gene pool' there. Some small pt 91 departments are, I'm sure, fabulously professional. Some,I'm also sure, are terrible.

The thing that makes 121 better overall is not the pilots but the way 121 is adminstrated. It is just plainly a lot more stringent, and the day-to-day operations are much more structured. OF COURSE it will be safer overall. You can get called in at hte last minute to fly, and have no worries because you will almost always be going to a large airport with long runways and radar service. What could be easier?

The real problem is that WHEN a pilot has a bit of cowboy in him, a 135 or 91 department is less likely to catch it and do something about it. Especially if he is chief pilot. He is maybe a little less dangerous at an airline only because there are more eyes watching him.

 

[RoyBoy]

What we have here is the difference between the early citation series which had electric flaps,and the later models which have hydraulic flaps. the electric flaps have massive chain drives located in the floor near the lav. when the flaps are all the way up or all the way down there was major tension on the motor and chain drives . The flaps take off and aproach postion (ie.flaps 15) resulted in a lower tension stress on the flap drive motor and mechanisms. Rigging this monster was allways a pain in the back, I would rather take a beating then have to rig citation electric flaps!!! Thank God for Pascals Law

 

[KSUPILOT]

I would have to say in the hawker when we are turning or at an outbase for the day we leave the flaps at 15. I guess the main reason is we really don't have much taxi time between the ramp and the runway. Heck in PIT when you start the engines and turn right you are at the hold short ramp! Just my 2 pennies. It is easier to have the airplane pre configured than rushing at the end.

 

[Bandit60]

nevermind

 

[Sgt. Hartman]

The thing that makes 121 better overall is not the pilots but the way 121 is adminstrated. It is just plainly a lot more stringent, and the day-to-day operations are much more structured. OF COURSE it will be safer overall.

The only reason why 121 is more stringent is because its fruits are available to anybody. The FAA is just protecting their own a$$. For example...Joe Jackoff who owns his own business and TBM700 creates a smoking hole in the ground somewhere in the mountains during the dead of night in a blizzard. Media coverage=0. Maybe a small three sentence article in the USA today. Therefore bad propaganda for the FAA=0. Now lets turn the tables. XYZ Airline crashes a 737 with many casualties. Media coverage=1,000,000! It' on the front page of every city paper in the country. Propaganda for the FAA= -1,000,000. You get what I'm saying? The FAA doesn't give a flying fudge about the TBM because nobody knows about it and therefore doesn't make them look bad and the FAA doesn't feel like listening to all the sh...I mean fuss from the media about "were the pilots trained properly, was the airplane maintained properly...blah, blah, blah in a widely publisized commercial crash.

 

[Deck]

Please don't group all Part 91 operators together for they aren't all a "big fat joke."

Did your part 121 operator train you the way that my part 91 operator trains me?

Recurrent - every 6 mo
First Aid/AED - every other year
Water Survival/Underwater Egress - every other year
High Altitude Chamber - Initial and Recurrent Training

Training isn't everything, yet it along with our strick SOP's shows that we're not a joke.

Also it seems that, if it weren't for part 91 and 135 operators, you might not have a job right now.

D

He's right. He's VERY right. I left 121 for 135 and you have to be kidding me! I will never put my family on a chartered jet. I hear first hand it's the same at Options / Netjets / Blah Blah Blah. This guy I flew with yesterday asked me if a Localizer approach was precision (so he could log it). HOLY HELL. It's no wonder the Feds are a buch of Nazis...135 / 91 is a big fat joke. Like I said...if I aint flyin it...my family won't be on it!!! (charter, that is).

AZT

 

[aeronautic1]

Right on Brother

It's not like anyone flew 121 out of their mother's womb.

Please don't group all Part 91 operators together for they aren't all a "big fat joke."

Did your part 121 operator train you the way that my part 91 operator trains me?

Recurrent - every 6 mo
First Aid/AED - every other year
Water Survival/Underwater Egress - every other year
High Altitude Chamber - Initial and Recurrent Training

Training isn't everything, yet it along with our strick SOP's shows that we're not a joke.

Also it seems that, if it weren't for part 91 and 135 operators, you might not have a job right now.

D

 

[WMUSIGPI]

true but the 300 hour Gulfstreamers or United girls from the 90s are dang close.

Not to say any of these people aren't skilled ... just not experienced

 

[Lead Sled]

Please don't group all Part 91 operators together for they aren't all a "big fat joke."

Did your part 121 operator train you the way that my part 91 operator trains me?

Recurrent - every 6 mo
First Aid/AED - every other year
Water Survival/Underwater Egress - every other year
High Altitude Chamber - Initial and Recurrent Training

Training isn't everything, yet it along with our strick SOP's shows that we're not a joke.

Also it seems that, if it weren't for part 91 and 135 operators, you might not have a job right now.

In my case, you can add weather radar courses and company paid aerobatic courses (read: extreme unusual attitude recovery courses. Yee Haw!) 121 and 135 operators are more regulated, not safer. Question: What exclusively part 91 corporate flight department would be willing to trade safety records with ANY part 121 or 135 operator? Answer: Not a one.

'Sled

 

[XTW]

You corp guys need to learn how to do a flow, followed up by a check list! What's with all these trashy Citations Takiing around with the flaps down, anyway?

How ironic that the "flow" and checklist at our company calls for it. Any other brilliant insights?

X


PS One man's trash is another man's gold mine.

 

[501261]

company paid aerobatic courses (read: extreme unusual attitude recovery courses. Yee Haw!)

Oh ya, that's a fun one, did you do it in the Extra 300 ? While, I didn't get sick, I certainly did have to ask for a break every now and then .

 

[501261]

He's right. He's VERY right. I left 121 for 135 and you have to be kidding me! I will never put my family on a chartered jet. I hear first hand it's the same at Options / Netjets / Blah Blah Blah. This guy I flew with yesterday asked me if a Localizer approach was precision (so he could log it). HOLY HELL. It's no wonder the Feds are a buch of Nazis...135 / 91 is a big fat joke. Like I said...if I aint flyin it...my family won't be on it!!! (charter, that is).

AZT

Well bud, there's good and bad in just everything, there certainly are some scare operations out there, and believe me 135 or 91 doesn't have a monopoly on it, just look at some of the 121 operators out there (FL410club).

With 3400 hours your comments strike me as an insecure young kid, who has a complex every time they go into an FBO, because us "corporate dorks" don't respect your 121 "skills".

Look I'm real good friends with people that run very classy operations, and good friends with people that run dirtbag operations, after you've been in this business for a while you see all kinds.

One word of advise on these charter flights you are working, you are a REQUIRED crewmember. Don't let the guy flying with you, kill you or get you violated. I'll bring to your attention this NTSB ruling: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/4954.PDF
the captain on this flight was one of these dirtbag operators, the SIC didn't think he had any responsibility, apparently the NTSB disagreed.

As far as not putting your family on a charter flight, I'm sure you have a lot of charter operators quaking in there boots as they're about to lose another customer making RJ wages

 

[bigD]

As far as not putting your family on a charter flight, I'm sure you have a lot of charter operators quaking in there boots as they're about to lose another customer making RJ wages

SNAP!

 

[LegacyDriver]

Ouch!

RJ wages...

That has to be the finest point in this thread!