Copilot Flying

[thatpilotguy]

The longer you are in the corporate world you will begin to see that guys like this are every where. I may be a little out of place here but I think that it's a good idea if everyone gets a little taste of them...It's a reminder of what not to do when you are in the position to guide a new crew member through the ranks. Like many here I have flown with good guys and guys with questionable behaviors, all have which have helped shape me in one way or another.

Personally as an FO for previous operators it seems to be a norm flying empty legs until you are comfortable, then live legs from the right seat, followed by every other leg or every other day, from the left seat depending on the operation and equipment.

 

[CarjCapt]

Been there done that

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

 

[Raskal]

My company is similar, deadheads from the right, then left seat until comfortable then every other leg. It seems to work out ok for most of the new guys, although management tends to drag its feet on pretty much everything unless there is a need.

One thing I have to agree with though, I have never run into as much ego in my life as I have in business aviation. Ironically (or not) the maniacal egos seem to be attatched to the sh!tt!est pilots in the air. You know, the ones for whom the regs/mins/procs only apply to everyone else.

Really, the only time I've ever run into as much ego as you can find daily in the lounges of TEB, PBI, IAD etc is when I happen to be sharing a bar with an airline captain from one of the legacy carriers. Hell, it's downright amazing that, judging from the number of idiots out there, anything attatched to a turbine gets anywhere.

 

[avbug]

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

Now this is really part of the key to the whole problem. Here we have a poster who is really quite qualified to do the job, and the company can't be bothered to spend the few dollars to provide the necessary training. In this poster's case, it would certainly be money well spent. He could probably get through on a recurrent class alone and take the checkride, or most of it, and finish with the operator...and would probably be content to stick around more than long enough to make it worth the operator's worthwhile. Instead, the operator isn't going to spent the money; the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw.

I've seen this many times. Operators hire cheap. They train in house. They won't spend the money, and subsequently the captain is flying with a kid fresh out of flight instructing who is far out of his element...his only training was "here are the books kid. Good luck." Is the captain supposed to hand the airplane to the kid on his first passenger leg because "it's his turn?" Not a snowballs chance. Is the captain supposed to let him do it in a crosswind to minimums on a contaminated runway at night? Nope. Not gonna happen.

How's he ever going to learn to be a captain? With time, on the empty legs until he has the experience and the skill and the understanding to fly it professionally enough that the passengers wouldn't know the difference. That's how. And hopefully with a company that thinks enough of him to send him to school instead of sticking the captain with a new know-nothing kid and...and expecting that he train the kid on live legs with passengers.

Today we're seeing more and more companies that won't hire unless the applicant has the type. They won't spend the money, and for domestic flights and SIC's won't type the SIC. It's not uncommon at all, which is really the question posed to start the thread. It may be the captain's policy, it may be the company policy (I've seen both), it may be an internal policy such as the counsel of the chief pilot, it may be employee specific (Joe flies every other leg, but Ed only flies the empty legs). There may be many reasons. Is Ed getting less quality experience because he's flying empty legs instead of passenger legs? Nope. Some of the operations I've flown, there were more at least as many empty legs, as every other leg was empty...out and back, out and back...the F/O flew the empties. At least one operation where I flew, we had twice as many empty legs as the full legs, and the F/O flew those, too. Other F/O's flew more...again, it was up to the F/O. A few flew far less...entirely up to the capabilities of the F/O.

 

[NW Flyer]

As a new jet F/O, I had to learn quickly if I wanted any stick time. I was initially only allowed to fly on empty legs (probably for the best, I was GREEN!), and the Captain would take the plane from me if whatever I was doing wasn't perfect (by his standards). Can't say I think his methods were right, but they did force me to become a better pilot!

At my current gig, everyone is captain qualified, we swap seats every day.

 

[Bullitt]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

 

[mynameisjim]

Personally I would never work for someone where I wasn't trusted to fly the airplane with people on it. That is ridiculous to me. If you require such perfection, or are so paranoid, that you won't trust the guy you're with to fly, then why is he there? Change your hiring practices.

Maybe the reason that some of the these guys are flying with 'green' flight instructor types is because the qualified individuals won't put up with being a gear bitch. I know I wouldn't.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?



And Avbug, I think your quote:

"the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw."

is the best quote I've seen on here, well put.

 

[avbug]

His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?

Mynameisjim, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really care about your background so much as how you are in the cockpit. I mentioned before that I usually try to get to know the F/O a little before I go fly. Generally I know most of what I need to know about the F/O before we reach the airplane, and I know the rest before we hit the runway. The flight only confirms it. If the F/O is up to the task, then the F/O will be doing the flying, and usually if that's the case, a letter of recommendation will soon follow to the CP, as I have no desire to see anyone sit right seat longer than they need to. After that it's beetween the F/O and the CP.

Like I said, for my end of things, how much flying the F/O does, and how much the F/O gets involved is generally up to the F/O.

 

[brokeflyer]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

 

[Bullitt]

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

Avbug,

I appreciate the reply and I completely agree with you. I like the guy personally but he seems to be steadily going down hill. Luckily I have another job and my two weeks are almost up.