Copilot Flying

[Bullitt]

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

Hahaha, yeah that's what I was thinking. It's a very easy airplane to learn and fly so most people shouldn't have a problem handling it. I had my buddy fly with him the other day when I got sick and he had some of the same observations I've had so I'm pretty sure it's not me. Well I hope not.....

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I just flew with a type rated, and vastly experienced contract pilot when we found ourselves short handed (1,000s of hours in type, check airman, etc.) When I said "your leg if you want it" he stopped, gave me an amazed look and said "you're going to let me fly?" I jokingly asked him if he remembered how to, and when he answered yes, off we went. I was amazed to hear that rarely would any of the operators let him actually fly, even though he is vastly experienced, a good stick and a pleasure to be with.

 

[svcta]

Yeah, when you're contracting you can generally expect to touch the radios and gear handle(even when you're typed). I agree that people should only hire people that they can trust. It's why I have the job I have now; I replaced someone who couldn't be leaned on(as I understand it). But it's incredibly short sighted for these guys not to allow the other PILOT next to them to fly. You can learn a little about procedure by watching, but it does nothing to sharpen one's flying skills. So as all this time goes by the guy they hired to be a pilot gets farther and farther away from being just that.

This having been said, some corporate operators(mine included) fly so infrequently that it's hard enough to maintain a skill set. Exponentially harder if someone isn't allowed to actually fly an approach once in a while.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with all due respect to the jeff-dude...

man, you have 1350 and your right seat in a citation? what the frick? with that kind of time you are a seat filler. anyone starting out as an FO is a seat filler unless you got a crap load of time and experience. you have been handed a dream for someone at your hour level. the other guys are right, you dont have the time to upgrade, yet. there are a lot of guys like me with more hours than you who are still busting their collective butts trying to get that first break. insurance mins suck and make it tough for us. you should be stinkin happy to be filling in the right seat and not one word of complaint either dude. you can feel how you want to, just keep that crap to yourself.

my apologies to everyone, im normally a really nice guy...but dang.

I feel like im a seat filler. im a copilot in the citation, when we carry the boss and other pax the paranoid captian i fly with flies the leg, which i can understand. when its just the boss, i usually fly the leg.

 

[svcta]

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[DrProc]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

So, Ray, how does he get the experience? Just because he is getting jet time in his logbook, doesn't really mean he is getting experience. He needs to fly legs on a regular basis, whether they are empty or every other. I speak from experience, I had 1100 hours when I got my first job flying a jet and after flying empty legs for about 200 hours I started flying every other leg from the left seat, pax or not. Now as a captain, I swap every other leg with f/o's who are very capable and can fly the airplane very well, even though they are low time.

 

[svcta]

This sounds like some sour grapes to me. Ray, it says you've got 1900 hours and appear to be flight instructing. So, somewhere in the last 600 hours you've become the keeper of what's right and wrong with this industry? Yes, it's a good opportunity to get in to jet flying, but being fortunate in that respect doesn't negate all of his other human qualities. Even the desire to fly an airplane, believe it or not.

Bottom line, the guys wants to fly. He's operating an airplane that, as it has been said, flies like a big 172 that easy to start; he should be allowed to fly it. He was hired to be a pilot....what do you want him to be?

And find a new argument. The "he doesn't deserve to be there as much as I do" thing is really weak.

 

[G100driver]

Ray:

I am not trying to gang up on you here, but I will offer this:

Once you fly with the "A" team you will realize that what you are advocating is completly wrong. Well run flight departments(even is a Citation operators) never do this. All pilots are fully type rated and performance qualifed and swap legs or days.

 

[avbug]

Actually it's not that uncommon...even in well run flight departments.

And yes, a thirteen hundred hour pilot is a very inexperienced pilot, and fortunate to be there.

Many today who haven't been flying for long don't understand this; they've had gravy on their lips their entire time, and don't understand reality.

Prior to the last turndown in the industy, the arrogance was overflowing, too. Many wet behind the ears types crowing about props are for boats and that sort of thing. Then many crying and whining in unbelief when the furloughs started. How could this happen to them...they were jet pilots, after all.

I said it before, and say it again; the industry owes you nothing.