Copilot Flying

[thatpilotguy]

The longer you are in the corporate world you will begin to see that guys like this are every where. I may be a little out of place here but I think that it's a good idea if everyone gets a little taste of them...It's a reminder of what not to do when you are in the position to guide a new crew member through the ranks. Like many here I have flown with good guys and guys with questionable behaviors, all have which have helped shape me in one way or another.

Personally as an FO for previous operators it seems to be a norm flying empty legs until you are comfortable, then live legs from the right seat, followed by every other leg or every other day, from the left seat depending on the operation and equipment.

 

[CarjCapt]

Been there done that

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

 

[Raskal]

My company is similar, deadheads from the right, then left seat until comfortable then every other leg. It seems to work out ok for most of the new guys, although management tends to drag its feet on pretty much everything unless there is a need.

One thing I have to agree with though, I have never run into as much ego in my life as I have in business aviation. Ironically (or not) the maniacal egos seem to be attatched to the sh!tt!est pilots in the air. You know, the ones for whom the regs/mins/procs only apply to everyone else.

Really, the only time I've ever run into as much ego as you can find daily in the lounges of TEB, PBI, IAD etc is when I happen to be sharing a bar with an airline captain from one of the legacy carriers. Hell, it's downright amazing that, judging from the number of idiots out there, anything attatched to a turbine gets anywhere.

 

[avbug]

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

Now this is really part of the key to the whole problem. Here we have a poster who is really quite qualified to do the job, and the company can't be bothered to spend the few dollars to provide the necessary training. In this poster's case, it would certainly be money well spent. He could probably get through on a recurrent class alone and take the checkride, or most of it, and finish with the operator...and would probably be content to stick around more than long enough to make it worth the operator's worthwhile. Instead, the operator isn't going to spent the money; the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw.

I've seen this many times. Operators hire cheap. They train in house. They won't spend the money, and subsequently the captain is flying with a kid fresh out of flight instructing who is far out of his element...his only training was "here are the books kid. Good luck." Is the captain supposed to hand the airplane to the kid on his first passenger leg because "it's his turn?" Not a snowballs chance. Is the captain supposed to let him do it in a crosswind to minimums on a contaminated runway at night? Nope. Not gonna happen.

How's he ever going to learn to be a captain? With time, on the empty legs until he has the experience and the skill and the understanding to fly it professionally enough that the passengers wouldn't know the difference. That's how. And hopefully with a company that thinks enough of him to send him to school instead of sticking the captain with a new know-nothing kid and...and expecting that he train the kid on live legs with passengers.

Today we're seeing more and more companies that won't hire unless the applicant has the type. They won't spend the money, and for domestic flights and SIC's won't type the SIC. It's not uncommon at all, which is really the question posed to start the thread. It may be the captain's policy, it may be the company policy (I've seen both), it may be an internal policy such as the counsel of the chief pilot, it may be employee specific (Joe flies every other leg, but Ed only flies the empty legs). There may be many reasons. Is Ed getting less quality experience because he's flying empty legs instead of passenger legs? Nope. Some of the operations I've flown, there were more at least as many empty legs, as every other leg was empty...out and back, out and back...the F/O flew the empties. At least one operation where I flew, we had twice as many empty legs as the full legs, and the F/O flew those, too. Other F/O's flew more...again, it was up to the F/O. A few flew far less...entirely up to the capabilities of the F/O.

 

[NW Flyer]

As a new jet F/O, I had to learn quickly if I wanted any stick time. I was initially only allowed to fly on empty legs (probably for the best, I was GREEN!), and the Captain would take the plane from me if whatever I was doing wasn't perfect (by his standards). Can't say I think his methods were right, but they did force me to become a better pilot!

At my current gig, everyone is captain qualified, we swap seats every day.

 

[Bullitt]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

 

[mynameisjim]

Personally I would never work for someone where I wasn't trusted to fly the airplane with people on it. That is ridiculous to me. If you require such perfection, or are so paranoid, that you won't trust the guy you're with to fly, then why is he there? Change your hiring practices.

Maybe the reason that some of the these guys are flying with 'green' flight instructor types is because the qualified individuals won't put up with being a gear bitch. I know I wouldn't.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?



And Avbug, I think your quote:

"the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw."

is the best quote I've seen on here, well put.

 

[avbug]

His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?

Mynameisjim, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really care about your background so much as how you are in the cockpit. I mentioned before that I usually try to get to know the F/O a little before I go fly. Generally I know most of what I need to know about the F/O before we reach the airplane, and I know the rest before we hit the runway. The flight only confirms it. If the F/O is up to the task, then the F/O will be doing the flying, and usually if that's the case, a letter of recommendation will soon follow to the CP, as I have no desire to see anyone sit right seat longer than they need to. After that it's beetween the F/O and the CP.

Like I said, for my end of things, how much flying the F/O does, and how much the F/O gets involved is generally up to the F/O.

 

[brokeflyer]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

 

[Bullitt]

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

Avbug,

I appreciate the reply and I completely agree with you. I like the guy personally but he seems to be steadily going down hill. Luckily I have another job and my two weeks are almost up.

 

[Bullitt]

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

Hahaha, yeah that's what I was thinking. It's a very easy airplane to learn and fly so most people shouldn't have a problem handling it. I had my buddy fly with him the other day when I got sick and he had some of the same observations I've had so I'm pretty sure it's not me. Well I hope not.....

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I just flew with a type rated, and vastly experienced contract pilot when we found ourselves short handed (1,000s of hours in type, check airman, etc.) When I said "your leg if you want it" he stopped, gave me an amazed look and said "you're going to let me fly?" I jokingly asked him if he remembered how to, and when he answered yes, off we went. I was amazed to hear that rarely would any of the operators let him actually fly, even though he is vastly experienced, a good stick and a pleasure to be with.

 

[svcta]

Yeah, when you're contracting you can generally expect to touch the radios and gear handle(even when you're typed). I agree that people should only hire people that they can trust. It's why I have the job I have now; I replaced someone who couldn't be leaned on(as I understand it). But it's incredibly short sighted for these guys not to allow the other PILOT next to them to fly. You can learn a little about procedure by watching, but it does nothing to sharpen one's flying skills. So as all this time goes by the guy they hired to be a pilot gets farther and farther away from being just that.

This having been said, some corporate operators(mine included) fly so infrequently that it's hard enough to maintain a skill set. Exponentially harder if someone isn't allowed to actually fly an approach once in a while.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with all due respect to the jeff-dude...

man, you have 1350 and your right seat in a citation? what the frick? with that kind of time you are a seat filler. anyone starting out as an FO is a seat filler unless you got a crap load of time and experience. you have been handed a dream for someone at your hour level. the other guys are right, you dont have the time to upgrade, yet. there are a lot of guys like me with more hours than you who are still busting their collective butts trying to get that first break. insurance mins suck and make it tough for us. you should be stinkin happy to be filling in the right seat and not one word of complaint either dude. you can feel how you want to, just keep that crap to yourself.

my apologies to everyone, im normally a really nice guy...but dang.

I feel like im a seat filler. im a copilot in the citation, when we carry the boss and other pax the paranoid captian i fly with flies the leg, which i can understand. when its just the boss, i usually fly the leg.

 

[svcta]

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[DrProc]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

So, Ray, how does he get the experience? Just because he is getting jet time in his logbook, doesn't really mean he is getting experience. He needs to fly legs on a regular basis, whether they are empty or every other. I speak from experience, I had 1100 hours when I got my first job flying a jet and after flying empty legs for about 200 hours I started flying every other leg from the left seat, pax or not. Now as a captain, I swap every other leg with f/o's who are very capable and can fly the airplane very well, even though they are low time.

 

[svcta]

This sounds like some sour grapes to me. Ray, it says you've got 1900 hours and appear to be flight instructing. So, somewhere in the last 600 hours you've become the keeper of what's right and wrong with this industry? Yes, it's a good opportunity to get in to jet flying, but being fortunate in that respect doesn't negate all of his other human qualities. Even the desire to fly an airplane, believe it or not.

Bottom line, the guys wants to fly. He's operating an airplane that, as it has been said, flies like a big 172 that easy to start; he should be allowed to fly it. He was hired to be a pilot....what do you want him to be?

And find a new argument. The "he doesn't deserve to be there as much as I do" thing is really weak.

 

[G100driver]

Ray:

I am not trying to gang up on you here, but I will offer this:

Once you fly with the "A" team you will realize that what you are advocating is completly wrong. Well run flight departments(even is a Citation operators) never do this. All pilots are fully type rated and performance qualifed and swap legs or days.

 

[avbug]

Actually it's not that uncommon...even in well run flight departments.

And yes, a thirteen hundred hour pilot is a very inexperienced pilot, and fortunate to be there.

Many today who haven't been flying for long don't understand this; they've had gravy on their lips their entire time, and don't understand reality.

Prior to the last turndown in the industy, the arrogance was overflowing, too. Many wet behind the ears types crowing about props are for boats and that sort of thing. Then many crying and whining in unbelief when the furloughs started. How could this happen to them...they were jet pilots, after all.

I said it before, and say it again; the industry owes you nothing.

 

[ag2pilot]

I guess I don't understand why flying only the empty legs until you get more time is considered such a hardship, when you have low time. And I don't understand why keeping the folks in the back more comfortable is a sign of a poorly run flight department. Nobody here is saying that lower time copilots should never fly.
Not letting a qualified copilot fly live legs is wrong, but keeping someone who needs a little more time to fly smoothly flying empty legs only is better than the alternative.

 

[Ray Finkle]

thank you to the two guys who saw my meaning. no one is saying he should be denied. no one is saying he shouldnt be there. no one is saying, especially me, that i deserve it more than he does.

the guy gets to fly certain legs, and sometimes not, depending on who the pax are. that sounds normal to me. what hit a nerve was that he does get to fly and with 1350, sounded somewhat ungrateful for having such an awesome opportunity at a lower than normal time. those of you who got in with less than 1500 - great! i, of all people, appreciate the desire to want to fly, i read his post and it sounded like he was complaining and forgetting the awesome position he is in. he isnt just sitting there all the time, he said himself. if he was and no one was letting him fly, then id have been more understanding, that would be frustrating. any of you who responded and said how you do it, you do the same thing, let the new guy gain experience on certain legs. it sounded like he felt he should fly all legs, or something.

if you think my original post said anything contrary, you need reread it. hes in a position with relatively low hours. as i said, most of us have to build more time than he has to get the same kind of position. and to hear what sounds like a whine, given hes flying right seat in a jet, getting actual stick time at 1350 hours, lands rough on the ears as the rest of us who are working hard and sacrificing as instructors, etc., and trying to get to the next level. thats it. no one says anything is owed to us because we have higher times than him. maybe hes forgotten what its like to be climbing out here. not a sob, just a reality. not looking for any sympathy, believe me.

as much as several of you were rubbed the wrong way by comment, what he said rubbed me the wrong way. no one is trying to offend or hurt anyones feelings here.

hes getting time, thats great! seriously. im not advocating that he not get to fly at all - not sure where that came from either. i never said that. never implied it either. but i dont think anyones just going to hand the reigns over right away. from what i know from friends who are flying jets, it takes time. yeah you have hours, but i think its fair to say that trust and ability grows with time = more stick time.

 

[mynameisjim]

And I don't understand why keeping the folks in the back more comfortable is a sign of a poorly run flight department.

My argument is that the flight department should never have someone in a pilot seat whom they don't trust to fly the equipment with passengers. Ever. If you hire a 1300 hour pilot, let him fly! If you don't trust a 1300 hour guy to fly, don't hire him.

What do you when the 1300 hour pilot you hired but haven't really trained or let fly is all of a sudden on his own because the captain has diarrhea?

 

[ag2pilot]

My argument is that the flight department should never have someone in a pilot seat whom they don't trust to fly the equipment with passengers. Ever. If you hire a 1300 hour pilot, let him fly! If you don't trust a 1300 hour guy to fly, don't hire him.

What do you when the 1300 hour pilot you hired but haven't really trained or let fly is all of a sudden on his own because the captain has diarrhea?

I see a big difference in being able to safely get the airplane back down on the ground, and being smooth enough to keep the pax comfortable. Once again, nobody said anything about not letting them fly at all, or not training them, or not letting them fly live legs as they progress.
The alternative is, as you said, "don't hire him". Then you are denying him of a lot more than not flying live legs.
I think it can vary from department to department as well. If your owners are comfortable with it, great, go ahead. Some owners are not, and there again, thats fine.They aren't necessarily bad people, just not as comfortable with that idea.
I just jumped into this argument at first because there were some immediate comments about the captain or cheif pilots ego being the problem. Thats not always the case.

 

[ultrarunner]

You know, at the airlines i was in class with a guy that didn't have much more time than that of the original poster. And all in piston and turboprops. He didn't have a problem with training, and by all accounts, didn't strike fear into the captains he flew with. And yes, we swapped legs.

This is about insecure CP's, that's all.

 

[wilbur]

Co pilot flying

That's the way NetJets does it. The FO flies when the a/c is repositioned (ie: empty).

 

[ultrarunner]

That's the way NetJets does it. The FO flies when the a/c is repositioned (ie: empty).

Heck, on a 7 day tour, that's gotta be darn near half the legs! What's your point?

 

[illinipilot]

Almost but not quite.

FOs at Netjets are only allowed to fly from the left seat on empty legs. They are however allowed to fly from the right seat with pax. I think that is what you were talking about. If not, please disregard.

 

[X man]

co pilot flying

It is not uncommon, and there are many factors that surround that situation. Co Pilots experience, whose is in the back, destination circumstances, IE: weather, traffic, so on so forth. I do not think it is an ego situation so much as a reality, sometimes the passenger/ owner prefers the captain to fly. Even in a co-captain situation, the senior pilot has to way the same factors, expereince, capabilitys, enroute and terminal conditions. You might have a captain who is excellent on the EFIS, instrument rules, procedure, but slightly week on basic"seat of the pants" flying, so if there is a mean crosswind or CB's in and around the airport of destination, then even a decision has to be made for the benifit of the aircraft and passengers and or the owner.
If you were equal to the captains experience, you would probably trade legs from the left seat.

 

[oiltycoon]

You ever fly with one of those guys that are real fidgety/nervous, wipe the palm of their hands constantly, have their hands near the controls most of the time and glance over EVERY time you reach to adjust ANYthing on the panels (like adjust the altimeter or even just reach for your pen), pretty much tell you how to fly the airplane (even though you have an FAA PIC type rating and a few hundered hours in type), where to taxi, go, stop, left, ok slow down, you're a little high, ok you're a little low- kind of pilot? And you have twice as much flight time as this pilot?