Copilot Flying

[Bullitt]

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

Hahaha, yeah that's what I was thinking. It's a very easy airplane to learn and fly so most people shouldn't have a problem handling it. I had my buddy fly with him the other day when I got sick and he had some of the same observations I've had so I'm pretty sure it's not me. Well I hope not.....

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I just flew with a type rated, and vastly experienced contract pilot when we found ourselves short handed (1,000s of hours in type, check airman, etc.) When I said "your leg if you want it" he stopped, gave me an amazed look and said "you're going to let me fly?" I jokingly asked him if he remembered how to, and when he answered yes, off we went. I was amazed to hear that rarely would any of the operators let him actually fly, even though he is vastly experienced, a good stick and a pleasure to be with.

 

[svcta]

Yeah, when you're contracting you can generally expect to touch the radios and gear handle(even when you're typed). I agree that people should only hire people that they can trust. It's why I have the job I have now; I replaced someone who couldn't be leaned on(as I understand it). But it's incredibly short sighted for these guys not to allow the other PILOT next to them to fly. You can learn a little about procedure by watching, but it does nothing to sharpen one's flying skills. So as all this time goes by the guy they hired to be a pilot gets farther and farther away from being just that.

This having been said, some corporate operators(mine included) fly so infrequently that it's hard enough to maintain a skill set. Exponentially harder if someone isn't allowed to actually fly an approach once in a while.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with all due respect to the jeff-dude...

man, you have 1350 and your right seat in a citation? what the frick? with that kind of time you are a seat filler. anyone starting out as an FO is a seat filler unless you got a crap load of time and experience. you have been handed a dream for someone at your hour level. the other guys are right, you dont have the time to upgrade, yet. there are a lot of guys like me with more hours than you who are still busting their collective butts trying to get that first break. insurance mins suck and make it tough for us. you should be stinkin happy to be filling in the right seat and not one word of complaint either dude. you can feel how you want to, just keep that crap to yourself.

my apologies to everyone, im normally a really nice guy...but dang.

I feel like im a seat filler. im a copilot in the citation, when we carry the boss and other pax the paranoid captian i fly with flies the leg, which i can understand. when its just the boss, i usually fly the leg.

 

[svcta]

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[Ray Finkle]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

Finkle, you're just wrong. Wrong about this "you don't have the right to complain" attitude, wrong about him not being allowed to fly, and only your mom thinks your nice.

He was given a job as a pilot. Let him fly. Especially in a Citation.

 

[DrProc]

with respect...no i am not wrong.

my point wasnt the he shouldnt be there. my point is that with his time, hes gotten a great opportunity, especially when you look at typical hiring mins. that his negative attitude is he feels like a just a seat filler i think is wrong. it sounds like a whine. the rest of us out here are working hard to get there, facing what seems to be ever increasing hiring mins and hes sitting in the right seat of a citation complaining.

i never said he shouldnt be allowed to fly. read the post dude. he should feel happy to be there, be a part of the team.

So, Ray, how does he get the experience? Just because he is getting jet time in his logbook, doesn't really mean he is getting experience. He needs to fly legs on a regular basis, whether they are empty or every other. I speak from experience, I had 1100 hours when I got my first job flying a jet and after flying empty legs for about 200 hours I started flying every other leg from the left seat, pax or not. Now as a captain, I swap every other leg with f/o's who are very capable and can fly the airplane very well, even though they are low time.

 

[svcta]

This sounds like some sour grapes to me. Ray, it says you've got 1900 hours and appear to be flight instructing. So, somewhere in the last 600 hours you've become the keeper of what's right and wrong with this industry? Yes, it's a good opportunity to get in to jet flying, but being fortunate in that respect doesn't negate all of his other human qualities. Even the desire to fly an airplane, believe it or not.

Bottom line, the guys wants to fly. He's operating an airplane that, as it has been said, flies like a big 172 that easy to start; he should be allowed to fly it. He was hired to be a pilot....what do you want him to be?

And find a new argument. The "he doesn't deserve to be there as much as I do" thing is really weak.

 

[G100driver]

Ray:

I am not trying to gang up on you here, but I will offer this:

Once you fly with the "A" team you will realize that what you are advocating is completly wrong. Well run flight departments(even is a Citation operators) never do this. All pilots are fully type rated and performance qualifed and swap legs or days.

 

[avbug]

Actually it's not that uncommon...even in well run flight departments.

And yes, a thirteen hundred hour pilot is a very inexperienced pilot, and fortunate to be there.

Many today who haven't been flying for long don't understand this; they've had gravy on their lips their entire time, and don't understand reality.

Prior to the last turndown in the industy, the arrogance was overflowing, too. Many wet behind the ears types crowing about props are for boats and that sort of thing. Then many crying and whining in unbelief when the furloughs started. How could this happen to them...they were jet pilots, after all.

I said it before, and say it again; the industry owes you nothing.

 

[ag2pilot]

I guess I don't understand why flying only the empty legs until you get more time is considered such a hardship, when you have low time. And I don't understand why keeping the folks in the back more comfortable is a sign of a poorly run flight department. Nobody here is saying that lower time copilots should never fly.
Not letting a qualified copilot fly live legs is wrong, but keeping someone who needs a little more time to fly smoothly flying empty legs only is better than the alternative.

 

[Ray Finkle]

thank you to the two guys who saw my meaning. no one is saying he should be denied. no one is saying he shouldnt be there. no one is saying, especially me, that i deserve it more than he does.

the guy gets to fly certain legs, and sometimes not, depending on who the pax are. that sounds normal to me. what hit a nerve was that he does get to fly and with 1350, sounded somewhat ungrateful for having such an awesome opportunity at a lower than normal time. those of you who got in with less than 1500 - great! i, of all people, appreciate the desire to want to fly, i read his post and it sounded like he was complaining and forgetting the awesome position he is in. he isnt just sitting there all the time, he said himself. if he was and no one was letting him fly, then id have been more understanding, that would be frustrating. any of you who responded and said how you do it, you do the same thing, let the new guy gain experience on certain legs. it sounded like he felt he should fly all legs, or something.

if you think my original post said anything contrary, you need reread it. hes in a position with relatively low hours. as i said, most of us have to build more time than he has to get the same kind of position. and to hear what sounds like a whine, given hes flying right seat in a jet, getting actual stick time at 1350 hours, lands rough on the ears as the rest of us who are working hard and sacrificing as instructors, etc., and trying to get to the next level. thats it. no one says anything is owed to us because we have higher times than him. maybe hes forgotten what its like to be climbing out here. not a sob, just a reality. not looking for any sympathy, believe me.

as much as several of you were rubbed the wrong way by comment, what he said rubbed me the wrong way. no one is trying to offend or hurt anyones feelings here.

hes getting time, thats great! seriously. im not advocating that he not get to fly at all - not sure where that came from either. i never said that. never implied it either. but i dont think anyones just going to hand the reigns over right away. from what i know from friends who are flying jets, it takes time. yeah you have hours, but i think its fair to say that trust and ability grows with time = more stick time.

 

[mynameisjim]

And I don't understand why keeping the folks in the back more comfortable is a sign of a poorly run flight department.

My argument is that the flight department should never have someone in a pilot seat whom they don't trust to fly the equipment with passengers. Ever. If you hire a 1300 hour pilot, let him fly! If you don't trust a 1300 hour guy to fly, don't hire him.

What do you when the 1300 hour pilot you hired but haven't really trained or let fly is all of a sudden on his own because the captain has diarrhea?

 

[ag2pilot]

My argument is that the flight department should never have someone in a pilot seat whom they don't trust to fly the equipment with passengers. Ever. If you hire a 1300 hour pilot, let him fly! If you don't trust a 1300 hour guy to fly, don't hire him.

What do you when the 1300 hour pilot you hired but haven't really trained or let fly is all of a sudden on his own because the captain has diarrhea?

I see a big difference in being able to safely get the airplane back down on the ground, and being smooth enough to keep the pax comfortable. Once again, nobody said anything about not letting them fly at all, or not training them, or not letting them fly live legs as they progress.
The alternative is, as you said, "don't hire him". Then you are denying him of a lot more than not flying live legs.
I think it can vary from department to department as well. If your owners are comfortable with it, great, go ahead. Some owners are not, and there again, thats fine.They aren't necessarily bad people, just not as comfortable with that idea.
I just jumped into this argument at first because there were some immediate comments about the captain or cheif pilots ego being the problem. Thats not always the case.

 

[ultrarunner]

You know, at the airlines i was in class with a guy that didn't have much more time than that of the original poster. And all in piston and turboprops. He didn't have a problem with training, and by all accounts, didn't strike fear into the captains he flew with. And yes, we swapped legs.

This is about insecure CP's, that's all.

 

[wilbur]

Co pilot flying

That's the way NetJets does it. The FO flies when the a/c is repositioned (ie: empty).

 

[ultrarunner]

That's the way NetJets does it. The FO flies when the a/c is repositioned (ie: empty).

Heck, on a 7 day tour, that's gotta be darn near half the legs! What's your point?

 

[illinipilot]

Almost but not quite.

FOs at Netjets are only allowed to fly from the left seat on empty legs. They are however allowed to fly from the right seat with pax. I think that is what you were talking about. If not, please disregard.

 

[X man]

co pilot flying

It is not uncommon, and there are many factors that surround that situation. Co Pilots experience, whose is in the back, destination circumstances, IE: weather, traffic, so on so forth. I do not think it is an ego situation so much as a reality, sometimes the passenger/ owner prefers the captain to fly. Even in a co-captain situation, the senior pilot has to way the same factors, expereince, capabilitys, enroute and terminal conditions. You might have a captain who is excellent on the EFIS, instrument rules, procedure, but slightly week on basic"seat of the pants" flying, so if there is a mean crosswind or CB's in and around the airport of destination, then even a decision has to be made for the benifit of the aircraft and passengers and or the owner.
If you were equal to the captains experience, you would probably trade legs from the left seat.

 

[oiltycoon]

You ever fly with one of those guys that are real fidgety/nervous, wipe the palm of their hands constantly, have their hands near the controls most of the time and glance over EVERY time you reach to adjust ANYthing on the panels (like adjust the altimeter or even just reach for your pen), pretty much tell you how to fly the airplane (even though you have an FAA PIC type rating and a few hundered hours in type), where to taxi, go, stop, left, ok slow down, you're a little high, ok you're a little low- kind of pilot? And you have twice as much flight time as this pilot?