Contract back retiring DAL Captains?

[TonyC]

. . . I am sure that something can be written that would ensure something. . .

Yeah, me too!

 

[xdays]

TonyC you are right. I think it will be interesting, to say the least, to see what emerges from negotiations. One scenario I would not have as much heartburn over would be allowing a Delta seniority list pilot in a critical category to cash in on his lump sum prior to his scheduled retirement date. IOW, A 767-400 Captain would state on September 30th his intention to retire NLT February 1st, giving the company a maximum of 4 months to fill his seat. The pilot would receive his lump sum as if he had retired October 1st, but he would retain his Delta seniority pending his actual retirement which would be either the date a Delta pilot can replace him or February 1st whichever is earlier. Any adjustments to his lump sum due to a change in his FAE would be made payable on February 1st. This would mean that the 767-400 is still flown by a DAL seniority list pilot, the pilot would still get his lump sum pay out in case the company attempts to terminate the pension during a BK filing (the biggest concern of most retiring DAL pilots) and the 767-400 would still be flying. Just thinking out loud, so shoot away.

Man, you beat me to the punch! This is exactly my understanding of how an agreement would be crafted. A lot of folks here are talking about "contract" pilots taking flying away from seniority list pilots. That's not now I see it. The flying will still be done by seniority list pilots, as they are still active. As you mentioned above, pilots in critical categories will commit to a retirement on a NLT date within the time frame agreed upon. His lump sum will either be protected until his retirement date or distributed using the timeline associated with the date he submitted his retirement papers. He continues to fly in his category until the agreed upon date, allowing DAL the ability to train someone to fill in the vacated position. And, you are also correct about there being only 3 767-400 sims in the world. CAL, DAL, and Boeing. As a side note, I remember in September, 2003 when we had 283 retirements, APD's were flying the left seat of the -400. None had the seniority to hold the position.

 

[General Lee]

Delta has made it clear that the pension system we have today will NOT be there soon. So, the senior guys will want to leave to atleast protect their lump sum payouts, which is 50% in cash. An agreement like this gives them the chance to get that lump sum and make it go to work, and they can still fly for a few months--and then LEAVE. If 400-500 Captains did this, there would be a HUGE bid for everyone else, and that would bring back more furloughs. The resulting upgrade will take a little sting out of a 30-35% pay cut. The lawyers would have to craft this in a way that does not lead to eventual contract pilots flying parts of Delta, like Song. Can it be done? Sure, with Johnie Cochran! "If the glove don't fit, you CAN'T convict."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JohnQ]

You remind me of the JetBlue guys that argued that exemptions to FAR Duty Limits would only apply to them. HA! Can a woman be a virgin who has already lost her virginity?!?! How can you set a precedent without setting a precedent?!?!? Once you've made history, you cannot go back and erase it. What kind of Koolaid are YOU drinking now, General!?!


Gonna change bankruptcy law, too??? This I gotta see.




If Delta needs to retain the Captains, Delta needs to provide the incentive for them to stay, and that incentive should NOT come out of the hide of the OTHER pilots at Delta.

This reminds me of the saying:


Failure to plan on YOUR part does not constitute an emergency on MY part.

What kind of delusional fantasy world are you living in? Do you think for one nanosecond that Delta pilots are losing sleep thinking:"gee, maybe a FedEx pilot doesn't agree with an interim agreement that we may make with the company."

Here is news for you: neither I, nor any other Delta pilot, really cares what YOU think. For that matter, all pilots industry-wide need to get out of this socialist, pseudo-communist mentality that pilots at other carriers somehow owe them something. We at DAL owe you nothing--and you at FedEx owe us nothing. I do not owe you high pay rates, you do not owe me great vacation rules, I do not owe you company paid dry cleaning (I actually had a guy tell me--apparantly with a straight face--that that was an essential contractual issue for him), etc. etc.

Get a life and worry about YOUR pilot group and YOUR company. We will worry about ours.

Delta guy.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Would something like this work?

Allow pilots to transfer their lump sum retirements to some sort of escrow account or trust fund. This account cannot be raided by company or touched by the pilot until he/she retires. Once the pilot has transferred the lump sum any further pension contributions go to a "B" plan or 401K. Pilots that don't choose to transfer their lump sums stay in the pension plan with the hope the company stays out of Chap 11.

 

[Pilot Doc]

767-400 Sim Limitations

If the 767-400 fleet is shut down by retirements, those planes would be available for training. Expensive, but available.

 

[FoxHunter]

If the 767-400 fleet is shut down by retirements, those planes would be available for training. Expensive, but available.

We can tell you have 400 hours.

 

[TonyC]

What kind of delusional fantasy world are you living in? Do you think for one nanosecond that Delta pilots are losing sleep thinking:"gee, maybe a FedEx pilot doesn't agree with an interim agreement that we may make with the company."

Here is news for you: neither I, nor any other Delta pilot, really cares what YOU think. For that matter, all pilots industry-wide need to get out of this socialist, pseudo-communist mentality that pilots at other carriers somehow owe them something. We at DAL owe you nothing--and you at FedEx owe us nothing. I do not owe you high pay rates, you do not owe me great vacation rules, I do not owe you company paid dry cleaning (I actually had a guy tell me--apparantly with a straight face--that that was an essential contractual issue for him), etc. etc.

Get a life and worry about YOUR pilot group and YOUR company. We will worry about ours.

Delta guy.

Let me guess: you're on vacation, and you decided to take a holiday from the meds, too.


General Lee looses no sleep worrying about me, and I loose none about him. We can, however, exchange ideas and opinions all day long without getting all snotty and selfish about it. Judging by your post count of 2, I'm guessing you haven't figured that out yet, and I'll cut you a break.


Nice attitude.

 

[JohnQ]

Let me guess: you're on vacation, and you decided to take a holiday from the meds, too.


General Lee looses no sleep worrying about me, and I loose none about him. We can, however, exchange ideas and opinions all day long without getting all snotty and selfish about it. Judging by your post count of 2, I'm guessing you haven't figured that out yet, and I'll cut you a break.


Nice attitude.

First things first. I violated my cardinal rule regarding any post, submission, etc.--I did not wait five minutes and reread before hitting "post." So, in hindsight I do appear somewhat uptight--I swear I am not. No meds here, and no, I am not on vacation with too much time on my hand.

Therefore, I take back my (unnecessarily) insulting words, such as "get a life" "delusionary fantasy world," etc. In fact, I apologize.

However, in a more moderate tone: why do you care what other pilots groups are doing? I think airline pilots spend far too much time worrying about the other pilot groups (what will UAL pilots do?) when they need to worry about issues far closer to home. It goes both ways, by the way. While you do not owe me anything, neither does Fred Smith owe my CEO anything. If Fred can afford to pay you a lot more (and he can), then more power to you. I hope you get a lot more. If you as a pilot group decide that certain pay and workrules are what you find appropriate--even if I would personally not--then that is all that matters.

SWA guys figured all that out 32 years ago, and counting. For the most part, so have FedEx and UPS guys.

Is this a better tone of conversation? BTW, you will probably not see posts from me in double digits.

 

[ILStoMinimums]

Isn't all these worries, rumors and talk just a pilot think that all or close to all talk about? Looks like its been there since the Wright Brothers and is still there growing daily.........

 

[TonyC]

First things first. I violated my cardinal rule regarding any post, submission, etc.--I did not wait five minutes and reread before hitting "post." So, in hindsight I do appear somewhat uptight--I swear I am not. No meds here, and no, I am not on vacation with too much time on my hand.

Therefore, I take back my (unnecessarily) insulting words, such as "get a life" "delusionary fantasy world," etc. In fact, I apologize.

However, in a more moderate tone: why do you care what other pilots groups are doing? I think airline pilots spend far too much time worrying about the other pilot groups (what will UAL pilots do?) when they need to worry about issues far closer to home . . .



Is this a better tone of conversation? BTW, you will probably not see posts from me in double digits.

Apology accepted - - been there, done that.


I care because history has shown that no airline operates in total isolation from the others. What happens at Delta affects the industry as a whole. What happens at UPS affects the industry. I didn't say it DRIVES the industry, or DETERMINES my pay scales . . . but it does AFFECT us all.

I don't worry, but I do like to discuss things, exchange ideas, hear other peoples' opinions, and learn from their experiences, rationales, and preferences.

I'd be happy to discuss the current progress of negotiations at FedEx with ya, but the Section on POW's and Hostages just isn't as exciting as the recent goings-on at Delta.

SOooo . . . let's continue to talk, shall we?

 

[DaveGriffin]

...why do you care what other pilots groups are doing? I think airline pilots spend far too much time worrying about the other pilot groups (what will UAL pilots do?) when they need to worry about issues far closer to home. It goes both ways, by the way. While you do not owe me anything, neither does Fred Smith owe my CEO anything. If Fred can afford to pay you a lot more (and he can), then more power to you. I hope you get a lot more. If you as a pilot group decide that certain pay and workrules are what you find appropriate--even if I would personally not--then that is all that matters.

Translation:

All you other *ssholes mind your own business. We will scr*w our junior guys over if we d*mn well want.

 

[General Lee]

Come on Davie, I know you are mad, but you are getting ridiculous. Our MEC and senior guys could have done a lot of things to make your life worse---like not including Cobra and not fighting for your recalls. I think this deal will expedite your return, and that is a good thing. Some DL guys on this board are very sensitive----and they need to chill out.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Come on Davie, I know you are mad, but you are getting ridiculous. Our MEC and senior guys could have done a lot of things to make your life worse---like not including Cobra and not fighting for your recalls.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, I don't think Davie is a pilot. For that matter, I don't think he was a SEAL either. I think Davie is a wannabe.

 

[Vortilon]

I think our fearless General is just fishing but Dave isn't gonna bite.

 

[DaveGriffin]

accelerated scr*wing for the juniors

With accelerated ratification, we should know by next week at the latest, how badly the juniors get scr*wed.

Cash-out pension plan AND more career-high hours for the retirees. What a great deal. Who says ALPA dues aren't worth it.

Seniors (greedy, bald, fat b*stards) will vote YES
Middle third (greedy b*stard wannabes) will vote YES
Juniors (those who get scr*wed) will vote NO

The TA passes.

 

[vc10]

Since they don't know how many pilots are going to early retire (given that pilots can do so on as little as 24 hours) how is management supposed to know how much to crank up training?

Food for thought...



Has Delta cranked up the training pipeline to fill the gap left by retiring Captains?


If they haven't, it must not be a problem. And if it's not a problem, it must be a tool to divide the pilots.


It looks like the dividing has begun...


DALPA has a responsibility to entertain the Company's proposal, and it has a responsibility to find the truth in the midst of lies, distortions, noise, and clutter.

A responsible manager, IMHO, would be beefing up training rather than waiting, hoping that the Collective Bargaining Agreement (the "contract") might be amended to "fix" the shortfall. It's no surprise that there appears to be an absence of responsible management.

 

[General Lee]

Davie,


Allowing the early retiries to guarantee their lump sum IF they decide to retire early will entice MORE to retire early, thus allowing the junior guys to come back or move up, and then the pay cuts will not be AS BAD. Face it, the days of a great pension are OVER. After a lot of these senior guys leave, there will be stagnation, and whatever aircraft you are on at the time---is one you will stay on for a while. Any junior guy and most of the middle seniority guys aren't going to have the great pensions of yesterday, so it is best to allow those senior guys to have their lump sums, let them leave, while the rest of us grab onto something nice and ride it out for a while.


This situation isn't a good one for us, so we have to make the best of it. At least the early retirements will spur more recalls.

Also, the junior guys won't necessarily be the ones getting $crewed here--the "dead zoners" or guys who are too young for early retirement but too old to go anywhere else or have enough time to make up the difference at DL are the ones who will ultimately be $crewed. Anyone with 20 years left or more can probably make up the difference with a cash balance type plan.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Freebrd]

Hmmm, Dave writes that he was USN, and flew C130 Combat talons? Didn't know the Navy flew the beast....or maybe, if he's a SEAL, he's jumped out of 'em. That I would buy.

 

[xdays]

Hmmm, Dave writes that he was USN, and flew C130 Combat talons? Didn't know the Navy flew the beast....or maybe, if he's a SEAL, he's jumped out of 'em. That I would buy.

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