Contract back retiring DAL Captains?

[General Lee]

I know I won't be happy until Dave Griffin and TBKANE are back in the saddle!



Dave,

Instead of parking planes, this may actually get you back faster--because they would have to bring you back to fill the slots. This would give the senior guys their lump sum, and bring you back. Then, we would only have to deal with 35% pay cuts and crappy schedules! I can't wait!! I am going nuts!




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DaveGriffin]

I know I won't be happy until Dave Griffin and TBKANE are back in the saddle!



Dave,

Instead of parking planes, this may actually get you back faster--because they would have to bring you back to fill the slots. This would give the senior guys their lump sum, and bring you back. Then, we would only have to deal with 35% pay cuts and crappy schedules! I can't wait!! I am going nuts!




Bye Bye--General Lee

The new retirees, who just booked the best three years of their careers (while furloughs hit a hit of 1,310 in mid-2003), are going to suck more money out of the system, as well as their lump sums.

Why don't I see what a GREAT deal that is?

 

[michael707767]

Michael 707/767


You know something......??? Your right!!. I can't believe I actually posted something like that That will teach me to post on this web board when I'm tired...Sorry.


PHXFLYR

Gee, I have never posted something I wished I hadn't said!

 

[General Lee]

Davie,


Come on bud, I am hoping you come back as soon as possible. Those senior guys have worked for Delta a lot longer than you and I have, and they deserve to get their money that they worked for. They aren't like Leo Mullin---who worked here for 5 years and got credit for 30 years in retirement.

The best we can hope for is a possible ride OUTSIDE of Chap 11 and a deal that keeps this thing running. If we go to Chap 11, then all bets are off except one----more guys will bail to make sure they get their lump sums before they are dropped (especially if UAL drops their pensions). Then, it really will get interesting. I hope you get recalled soon and I will buy you a beer and a meal on the line.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

General,

Iam rather disapointed in you. I thought you would not have fallen for this crap.

DaveG,
I see your point and agree. And yes it is another needle to stick in your.....

The point is that the Comapny told you guys that if Senior guys leave it will push DAL closer to CH11 because of payments that have to be made, so if you "Retire" and return to your seat, you screw the bottom guys twice, what is so good about that? I fail to see how that helps your 1300 on the street, oh wait it doesn't!

 

[TonyC]

Food for thought...



Has Delta cranked up the training pipeline to fill the gap left by retiring Captains?


If they haven't, it must not be a problem. And if it's not a problem, it must be a tool to divide the pilots.


It looks like the dividing has begun...


DALPA has a responsibility to entertain the Company's proposal, and it has a responsibility to find the truth in the midst of lies, distortions, noise, and clutter.

A responsible manager, IMHO, would be beefing up training rather than waiting, hoping that the Collective Bargaining Agreement (the "contract") might be amended to "fix" the shortfall. It's no surprise that there appears to be an absence of responsible management.

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


The training pipeline at DAL central is currently FULL. We would have to buy sim time from other sources---Boeing, etc..... But, if we let 500 Capts leave on OCT 1st, then we park most of our widebody fleet. So, which would you have happen? Chap 11 may not be avoidable, but parking all of the widebodies even in Chap 11 would drain a lot of needed cash. If this were to happen, the company would have to find more sim time and actually stick to a schedule to let the retired guys leave. It would also allow the retired guys know that their lump sums or whatever are safe---and they EARNED IT. There would also be a huge bid, and that would include many furloughed people---and the recalls would continue. I don't really see a downside here.......The company has continually said that if United cancels their pension plan (they owe $500 million soon), then DAL might also. Is that fair to all of the senior guys that have worked hard for 20-25 years? Anything Dalpa does will be looked at carefully and there will NOT be a windfall for one group. Actually, right now the senior guys are sort of being FORCED OUT---or lose their pensions, and that really isn't a great deal for them. A lot of them finally got to a place in their career that is nice---flying widebodies to Europe or Hawaii---enjoying the job. Not anymore.


FLB717,

I have to disagree with you and Dave. Please read above. I think that will get him back faster. People are really being "furloughed" off of the top, and that will bring the furloughed guys back faster. A large bid to fill many many Capt slots will have a cascading affect---upward. Every 777 Capt slot needed to be filled will result in 12 people moving up.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[TonyC]

The training pipeline at DAL central is currently FULL. We would have to buy sim time from other sources---Boeing, etc..... But, if we let 500 Capts leave on OCT 1st, then we park most of our widebody fleet. So, which would you have happen? Chap 11 may not be avoidable, but parking all of the widebodies even in Chap 11 would drain a lot of needed cash. If this were to happen, the company would have to find more sim time and actually stick to a schedule to let the retired guys leave. It would also allow the retired guys know that their lump sums or whatever are safe---and they EARNED IT. There would also be a huge bid, and that would include many furloughed people---and the recalls would continue. I don't really see a downside here.......The company has continually said that if United cancels their pension plan (they owe $500 million soon), then DAL might also. Is that fair to all of the senior guys that have worked hard for 20-25 years? Anything Dalpa does will be looked at carefully and there will NOT be a windfall for one group. Actually, right now the senior guys are sort of being FORCED OUT---or lose their pensions, and that really isn't a great deal for them. A lot of them finally got to a place in their career that is nice---flying widebodies to Europe or Hawaii---enjoying the job. Not anymore.

Admittedly, I don't know enough specifics to engage in a very meaningful debate about the issue, so take what I'm saying for what it's worth - - practically nothing.

If the threat is to lose 500 Captains in October, I don't think delaying their departure by 120 days will allow enough time to train 500 Captains and 500 F/O's, anyway. Whether it be Upgrade, Initial, Transition, whether it be currently employed or recalled from furlough, if the problem's THAT big, it's gonna take longer to fix.

Nobody is safe until they take the lump sum and depart the fix. You're not safe, the furloughee is not safe, the Captain a year from retirement is not safe. Why should you expend any negotiating capital to ensure the "safety" of this small minority group? If the Captain wants to jump ship and take his small (by comparison) lump sum, so be it. If he's as loyal to the Company as you're presenting to be, he'll hang around for a while, take a risk, and perhaps receive a bigger reward from the robust company that you want to emerge from this debacle. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? What this scheme amounts to, in my opinion, is an opportunity for that Captain to eat his cake and have it, too.


Park wide bodies? What about the MD-11's that are parked? (Hmmm, wait, we may have bought them. ) Again, it seems like the delayed retirement scheme is a way to cover for management's incompetence, and drive a wedge between the pilots to boot.


Buy sim time? Chump change compared to the stakes involved. Training pipeline's full? Explain that to the folks who lost their jobs as instructors. If the pipeline's full, what good does a "huge bid" do? If they can't train more, they can't train more, right? It just seems incongruous to me.


I'm sure there must be a way to make this work in your favor - - the Company wants something, you get to decide the price they should pay. Perhaps you could include language that will require the recall AND start of training for TWO furloughees for every Captain that is allowed to retire and continue flying. Perhaps you could limit the monthly cap for the retirees flying - - say to 60% of what your cap is, so they won't be replacing a "whole" line pilot, but only a fraction of one.


I don't see anybody being "forced" to do anything, except the pilots who were FORCED to be furloughed. The elder pilots have a decision to make, and I realize it's a tough one - - extraordinarily tough, at that. But it IS a decision. I don't see the fairness of sacrificing the junior guys' chances for recall and upgrade just so you can make the most senior guys' decision to bail that much easier.

 

[JohnQ]

>>So the older guys retire taking the money for retirment from the limited funds and then get to stay active there by keeping junior pilot from upgrade. All while not only helping to bankrupt the company but keeping junior pilots from recieving more money in uprades. What a thoughtful group, it proves once again that pilots will eat thier own young.<<


What an ignorant post. The older guys are taking much-deserved retirement funds that they spent decades accruing. In addition, they are not "keeping" any junior pilot from upgrading--they are ensuring that the fleet will stay in the air while our maxed-out training department catches up to the massive openings they will need to fill.

As for "keeping junior pilots from receiving upgrade money"--perhaps at Air Tran, but at Delta we actually have a concept called "pay protection," which states that if you are eligibile for a certain pay position, and due to the "needs of the company" you are delayed in assuming that position, then you will still be paid as if you had upgraded on the first eligible date. I can assure you that our negotiators will encompass that in any side letter with the company.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

20 year F/O explained

Sorry to get off track, 20 yr FO?

I have 12 years at AA and current seniorty projections show me another 8 to upgrade to bottom S80 Captain (BTW to make less $ than I did as a 777 F/O), hence the 20 year F/O comment in my stats.

It is also hence I have an application on file with SWA. I am 41 and have at least 19 more fun-filled years of this...I'd rather start over now instead of 51. The hard part is to get them to call me for the interview...