Contract back retiring DAL Captains?

[typhoonpilot]

I just remember hearing some MEC types say it would set a hugely bad precedent. Example, ten years from now we are short 777 captains, Delta drags feet and says..."we will have to park them, unless you let us contract out Emerites pilots to fly them". Non ALPA and non Delta pilots flying our planes is bad juju.

Hey, I like this idea. In ten years I'll be ready to leave the sandbox and come back home. Can I get a Salt Lake basing on the 777 ? By the way, it is spelled Emirates.

Typhoonpilot

 

[FDJ2]

It's amaazing that there have been so many conclusions made with no specific proposal put forth. The only thing we do know is that the MEC has directed the negotiators to examine a course in negotiations which could fill a temporary pilot short fall in specific categories, for a yet to be determine time frame, under yet to be determined conditions, in exchange for yet to be determined quids. None of these categories would be filled by junior furloughed pilots regardless. What we do know is that the 777, 767-400 and 767 training pipelines are full beyond the capacity of the training department and available simulators due to recent advance entitlements. Additionally, if DAL were forced to ground its wide bodied aircraft due to a sudden mass exodus of wide bodied captains DAL would be forced into CH11 as would most any other carrier if it were to find a large part of its fleet suddenly grounded. We also know that any agreement must pass DAL pilot membership ratification. If the DAL pilots think it's a good deal and the membership approves it, what's the beef from the peanut gallery of non DAL pilots. Perhaps everyone should take a step back before rendering an opinion on an agreement that has yet to be made and which has yet to produce any details.

 

[TonyC]

It's amaazing that there have been so many conclusions made with no specific proposal put forth. The only thing we do know is ...


Perhaps everyone should take a step back before rendering an opinion on an agreement that has yet to be made and which has yet to produce any details.

I don't see anybody "rendering an opinion" on any agreement, but I DO think it's fair to exchange opinions about concepts, don't you?

Perhaps in the process we can all learn a thing or two, even.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

FDJ2, read post #31 very carefully. Dangerous territory.

Unit

 

[Full of LUV]

500 Captains???

Admittedly, I don't know enough specifics to engage in a very meaningful debate about the issue, so take what I'm saying for what it's worth - - practically nothing.

If the threat is to lose 500 Captains in October, I don't think delaying their departure by 120 days will allow enough time to train 500 Captains and 500 F/O's, anyway. Whether it be Upgrade, Initial, Transition, whether it be currently employed or recalled from furlough, if the problem's THAT big, it's gonna take longer to fix.

Nobody is safe until they take the lump sum and depart the fix. You're not safe, the furloughee is not safe, the Captain a year from retirement is not safe. Why should you expend any negotiating capital to ensure the "safety" of this small minority group? If the Captain wants to jump ship and take his small (by comparison) lump sum, so be it. If he's as loyal to the Company as you're presenting to be, he'll hang around for a while, take a risk, and perhaps receive a bigger reward from the robust company that you want to emerge from this debacle. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right? What this scheme amounts to, in my opinion, is an opportunity for that Captain to eat his cake and have it, too.


Park wide bodies? What about the MD-11's that are parked? (Hmmm, wait, we may have bought them. ) Again, it seems like the delayed retirement scheme is a way to cover for management's incompetence, and drive a wedge between the pilots to boot.


Buy sim time? Chump change compared to the stakes involved. Training pipeline's full? Explain that to the folks who lost their jobs as instructors. If the pipeline's full, what good does a "huge bid" do? If they can't train more, they can't train more, right? It just seems incongruous to me.


I'm sure there must be a way to make this work in your favor - - the Company wants something, you get to decide the price they should pay. Perhaps you could include language that will require the recall AND start of training for TWO furloughees for every Captain that is allowed to retire and continue flying. Perhaps you could limit the monthly cap for the retirees flying - - say to 60% of what your cap is, so they won't be replacing a "whole" line pilot, but only a fraction of one.


I don't see anybody being "forced" to do anything, except the pilots who were FORCED to be furloughed. The elder pilots have a decision to make, and I realize it's a tough one - - extraordinarily tough, at that. But it IS a decision. I don't see the fairness of sacrificing the junior guys' chances for recall and upgrade just so you can make the most senior guys' decision to bail that much easier.

500 Captains leaving has to result in at least 2500 entitlement training events with the different fleet types. The company is already exceeding their obligated furlough recall rate from 30/month to 50/month without any such prodding from DALPA.
I agree with General of how would you like to be a 50 yr old captain with DAL who finally has 25 yrs with the company and a captain slot on the 767 only to come to the realization you must retire now 10 years only with your retirement lump sum or risk losing almost all of it? Yes they get their money they earned, but a lot of these funds are already in the pension funds the company holds. Everyone can say I'd stay and risk it all, but that is by far against human nature.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't see anybody "rendering an opinion" on any agreement, but I DO think it's fair to exchange opinions about concepts, don't you?

Perhaps in the process we can all learn a thing or two, even.

I do think it's good to render an opinion on a concept, but some of these renderings seem to be based on judgements about an agreement, that has yet been made, has no details, and would eventually need to be approved by the pilots involved. Some of the exchange of opinions have been interesting considering they don't come from any DAL pilots for whom this agreement would be made.

"it proves once again that pilots will eat thier own young."

"The new retirees, who just booked the best three years of their careers (while furloughs hit a hit of 1,310 in mid-2003), are going to suck more money out of the system, as well as their lump sums."


"I thought you would not have fallen for this crap."

"so if you "Retire" and return to your seat, you screw the bottom guys twice, what is so good about that? "



"I don't see the fairness of sacrificing the junior guys' chances for recall and upgrade just so you can make the most senior guys' decision to bail that much easier."

It might be best to hold off on rendering judgement/opinions until there actually is an agreement, with real stipulations, limits, quids etc., particularly when it's some one elses PWA. Of course that's just my opinion.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, read post #31 very carefully. Dangerous territory.

Unit

Thanks for the warning, it's well taken. I don't think anyone is taking this lightly.

 

[TonyC]

FDJ2, read post #31 very carefully. Dangerous territory.

Unit

Thanks for the warning, it's well taken. I don't think anyone is taking this lightly.

I'm obviously missing something here...

 

[General Lee]

AMRcostunit,



Hey, this so called agreement would be put together by a bunch of lawyers, and WE ALL KNOW THAT WE CAN TRUST LAWYERS, RIGHT? GGGGGGGGG----YIKES!

Ah, I think we hopefully have learned something from past agreements (like the lovely CO/NW codeshare---that promised us 1000 jobs back quickly.....I think it promised us that...?) and hopefully Dalpa will put this thing together correctly and with safegards. It should produce some more recalls--which would be a good thing.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ILStoMinimums]

I have 12 years at AA and current seniorty projections show me another 8 to upgrade to bottom S80 Captain (BTW to make less $ than I did as a 777 F/O), hence the 20 year F/O comment in my stats.

It is also hence I have an application on file with SWA. I am 41 and have at least 19 more fun-filled years of this...I'd rather start over now instead of 51. The hard part is to get them to call me for the interview...

After 12 years at AA its worth leaving for SWA? I'm not flaming here, just an honest question.
I know SWA is an awesome company....but isn't life with seniority not bad?

 

[typhoonpilot]

I'm obviously missing something here...

You probably didn't miss it Tony, but they did. They seem to have missed the at the end. All in good fun.

Typhoonpilot

 

[surplus1]

For once I tend to agree with the comments of FDJ2. Nevertheless, as a non-Delta pilot, I find it interesting to note that there is a sort of debate over the merits of this "internal J4J" equivalent on the Delta farm, yet most of the commenting Delta pilots (and others) that express concerns about bad precedents have no difficulty with the concept of imposing a J4J program on the Delta subsidiaries.

Hmmmm.

 

[FoxHunter]

After 12 years at AA its worth leaving for SWA? I'm not flaming here, just an honest question.
I know SWA is an awesome company....but isn't life with seniority not bad?

The grass is always greener. About six years ago I had a jumpseater, AF buddy of the F/O. He was in the process of trying to come to FedEx, and he happened to be a SWA Captain. We asked WHY? He said he flew a two on three off or a three on two off schedule, flew 6 legs a day, 90 hours a month, had the Jerry Springer crowd in the back, and would be doing the same thing 20 years from now. Since he was not successful during the interview process he is still there. Since he had a good reputation in the AF, good contacts, this is just one of the mysteries of the process at FedEx. No swipe against him or SWA.

 

[Swede]

He said he flew a two on three off or a three on two off schedule, flew 6 legs a day, 90 hours a month, had the Jerry Springer crowd in the back, and would be doing the same thing 20 years from now.

I'm just very slightly senior to AMRCostUnit. The description of this SW guy's schedule is why I really have no desire to leave AA. After flying the international long-haul, the thought of going back to the domestic grind is unpleasant. This is no slam on those who are there by choice or seniority. After a 10-day month of Maui, for example, one leg over, (24 hours off on the beach, snorkeling over the reef at the Outrigger Marriott) and one leg home, or hoisting pints in London after dozing for dollars (FB), the domestic grind isn't appealing. I know, whiner, but I did almost a decade in the MD-80 doing just that.

"The grass is always greener" is a very true statement, meaning the grass is often brown and crispy.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

Hijacking my own thread...

I'm just very slightly senior to AMRCostUnit. The description of this SW guy's schedule is why I really have no desire to leave AA. After flying the international long-haul, the thought of going back to the domestic grind is unpleasant. This is no slam on those who are there by choice or seniority. After a 10-day month of Maui, for example, one leg over, (24 hours off on the beach, snorkeling over the reef at the Outrigger Marriott) and one leg home, or hoisting pints in London after dozing for dollars (FB), the domestic grind isn't appealing. I know, whiner, but I did almost a decade in the MD-80 doing just that.

"The grass is always greener" is a very true statement, meaning the grass is often brown and crispy.

I don't mean to hijack my own thread but...here in ORD there it'll be years before I am back on the 777 (I much prefer international too); pay difference between 767 reserve/737 line is worth the control of schedule. I am concerned about the 3 jets per month that Eagle is using to take over our domestic system. How is that helping further my career? AA turned over gates H1-H5 to Eagle to in ORD. The last of 75 F100's went away last week. 100 bid lines of flying GONE. Almost all of the cities I used to fly the F100 to are now Eagle; which I don't understand with their high CASM's. AE is 10% of AMR debt and generates 5% revenue. AA pays them "fee for departure" of cost plus 8%. Oh yeah and what about Branson and Virgin USA?

With the downward pressure on the legacies now I see a future AA mainline as hub to hub, coast to coast, and continent to continent with Eagle doing the rest. With RH in office, APA will help that happen. So, at best, I am a mid-level domestic FO. At worst, if Eagle gets the 100 seat jet, I could get real junior real fast or be out of a job. Not the way I want to spend the next 19 years. I won't even comment about the A and B Fund. If I leave now I get to take about $220K with A+B+401k to rollover into my Optioneer account; but that's another whole thread...

At SWA, the growth (I know, AA told me in 1992; "14,000 pilots") should produce upgrade to CA in less time than at AA for more $ than an AA 777 CA. I ain't gonna see those kind of dollars at AA.

SWA knows how to make money. As the analyists say, "No Profit, No Planes." We are seeing that play out before our very eyes. We are running 80% loads at AA and breaking even. Gotta do better than that or they'll be back for more. And with most of our competition in BK, AMR will not be all that far behind.

It's risky, no doubt. And a lot of factors that play into my decision can change overnight. Those with more wisdom than I have opined that I could probably do NO WORSE and have more security (if there is such a thing) at SWA. I am watching it closely and may have a big decision to make...if the call ever comes.

Unit

P.S. This is not a slam on the AE guys. But you have to understand that for every three 50 seaters there is one less silver 737 and the pay and benefits that come along with it for you guys to move up to.

 

[Vortilon]

Once again...this will be interesting. An agreement might even increase retirements. If there was a mechanism to get your lump, work for a little while and leave without killing the company, what reason would there be for the estimated 2000 eligible guys to stay? (Other than they would be bored in about 90 days) Someone on the DALPA board (or maybe it was here) said this is brilliant on the company's part. With a higher CAP & PBS in place, there would be non eed for a displacement bid...the extra contract guys simply get phased out. Who knows....but I trust our negotiating committee. They've done a nice job so far.

Well, I have to say I was impressed with how well-thought-out (is that a word?) the recall agreement was...and that was created fairly quickly. The Short Notice list was brilliant and I'd be coming back a lot later without it. Hopefully this agreement will be as equally detailed with adequate protections for all.

If there is an agreement, however, GG will have to come up with another reason to blame pilots though when he files Chapter 11 come October.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm obviously missing something here...

I think he was referring to the potentially bad precedent this might set. It was I believe quoted in post #31. That's a fair point depending on what actually comes out of these negotiations, IMO.

 

[FDJ2]

AMRcostunit,



Ah, I think we hopefully have learned something from past agreements (like the lovely CO/NW codeshare---

The biggest immediate difference is that this agreement must pass membership ratification, the code share "give away" (my opinion) was crammed through the MEC in an expedited manner.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Hey General,

I just remember hearing some MEC types say it would set a hugely bad precedent. Example, ten years from now we are short 777 captains, Delta drags feet and says..."we will have to park them, unless you let us contract out Emerites pilots to fly them". Non ALPA and non Delta pilots flying our planes is bad juju.

Regards,

NYR

Wrong again. Oh well, at least Delta will be "hiring".

 

[General Lee]

NYR,


If this thing passes and a bunch of pilots retire and then eventually move on, you will be back faster, and that is a good thing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYR,


If this thing passes and a bunch of pilots retire and then eventually move on, you will be back faster, and that is a good thing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

It would be nice to get back sooner, but this is a real scary precedent.

Delta dismantled our training department, sold sim time to other airlines and has been slow to recall.

Now they say, they need contract pilots to staff the widebody fleet. I agree that grounding some of our widebodies is not good for anyone.

I hope to see an unsolicited effort on Delta's part to max out the recall and staff the training department. If Delta needs to book sime time with other companies, then so be it. Delta must show that they are commited to staffing this airline by taking steps to insure an adaquate number of Delta pilots are available to fill the seats ( not former Delta pilots).

NYR

On the plus side, at least we could say that we are the only Legacy carrier to be hiring.

 

[FDJ2]

Delta dismantled our training department, sold sim time to other airlines and has been slow to recall.

NYR, the problem at Delta with a surge of early retirements , as I see it, is that we are now getting nearly a years worth of retirements every couple of months. On average each 777 or 767-400 Captain retirement generates 6 training events as everyone takes one step forward. That's about 600 training events from last months retirements alone. Accelerated recalls, while required to back fill AE's, will not keep the wide bodied fleet flying. It's not so much an overall pilot shortage at the airline, it's a shortage of pilots in key categories. Many of these retirements decapitate, for lack of a better word, categories like the 767-400. From what I understand, in the entire planet, there are only 3 767-400 simulators, increasing our training department will not increase simulator availability for the 767-400, neither will accelerating recalls. Furthermore, the training pipeline in the 777, 767-400 and 7ER categories are slowed when scores of LCA in those categories retire. Adding additional fire to the retirement stampede is that idiot GG who keeps threatening BK and pension termination and refusing to guarantee that he will keep his hands off the Delta Pilot Pension Fund.

 

[NYRANGERS]

NYR, the problem at Delta with a surge of early retirements , as I see it, is that we are now getting nearly a years worth of retirements every couple of months. On average each 777 or 767-400 Captain retirement generates 6 training events as everyone takes one step forward. That's about 600 training events from last months retirements alone. Accelerated recalls, while required to back fill AE's, will not keep the wide bodied fleet flying. It's not so much an overall pilot shortage at the airline, it's a shortage of pilots in key categories. Many of these retirements decapitate, for lack of a better word, categories like the 767-400. From what I understand, in the entire planet, there are only 3 767-400 simulators, increasing our training department will not increase simulator availability for the 767-400, neither will accelerating recalls. Furthermore, the training pipeline in the 777, 767-400 and 7ER categories are slowed when scores of LCA in those categories retire. Adding additional fire to the retirement stampede is that idiot GG who keeps threatening BK and pension termination and refusing to guarantee that he will keep his hands off the Delta Pilot Pension Fund.

Yea, I guess I'm just frustrated with the whole situation (like all of us). Our leadership is severely lacking. And to cap it off...................................................a 71 year old man takes 8 months to come up with our solution.......brighter reading lights!! Hey GG, you can't see because you are 71 (no disrespect to the elderly), not because we havn't spent millions on new lights. Strategic review my a$$.

With the big number of retirements, Delta will have to fill the AE void from the bottom. It would be nice if management didn't allways just state a problem , then look at DALPA with a blank stare and hope we solve the problem they created.

If we allow contract pilots now, I can only imagine what concessions managements will ask for in future chap 11 filings. This sets a bad precedent for ALL airlines. This may make our screw up with scope look small in comparison.

If we can guarantee the 65 managments retirements, we should be able to do the same for a limited number of Delta pilots. This way they are not contract pilots. I'm just worried this may come back to bite us.

Frats,

NYR

 

[General Lee]

I have a feeling that they guys who go out in the near term will have their lump sums guaranteed, and that will be it. That will increase the likelyhood that many will take this offer---and still get to stay around for awhile--like 6 months. This will also save the company money in the long term--not having to displace anyone in the near future and possibly saving some moving money at the same time.


I am ok with this AS LONG AS they put it in writing that this is a ONE TIME event and NOT PRECEDENT setting. The early out guys can stay for a DEFINED amount of time and then are GONE. There is a advanced entitlement bid out SOON, and recalls will accelerate. And, this agreement would be binding in Chap 11 also. The lawyers are paid a lot of money, and they probably could come up with something like this.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

I
I am ok with this AS LONG AS they put it in writing that this is a ONE TIME event and NOT PRECEDENT setting.

Bye Bye--General Lee

My concern is, even if it's a one time thing, it still sets a precedent. Once we employ contract pilots, the precedent is set and it will be easier for managements to get this in the future. I am not saying it will be easy, but easier than if we never had contrct pilots.

I hope they can guarantee the retirements of a few hundred pilots (like they did for the SERPants). This way we will not have contract pilots flying on the Delta seniority list.

Although I do think this will increase the recall once the contract guys start being replaced

Regards,

NYR

 

[TonyC]

I am ok with this AS LONG AS they put it in writing that this is a ONE TIME event and NOT PRECEDENT setting.

You remind me of the JetBlue guys that argued that exemptions to FAR Duty Limits would only apply to them. HA! Can a woman be a virgin who has already lost her virginity?!?! How can you set a precedent without setting a precedent?!?!? Once you've made history, you cannot go back and erase it. What kind of Koolaid are YOU drinking now, General!?!

And, this agreement would be binding in Chap 11 also. The lawyers are paid a lot of money, and they probably could come up with something like this.

Gonna change bankruptcy law, too??? This I gotta see.




If Delta needs to retain the Captains, Delta needs to provide the incentive for them to stay, and that incentive should NOT come out of the hide of the OTHER pilots at Delta.

This reminds me of the saying:


Failure to plan on YOUR part does not constitute an emergency on MY part.

 

[General Lee]

Tony C,


You also don't know much about bankruptcy law. Just this week Delta had problems with buying back certain debt from lease holders, primarily because Delta signed certain documents(originally, when signing for the initial leases) that stated that EVEN in CHAP 11---these leases COULD NOT be changed. So, I am sure that something can be written that would ensure something, because if those lease holders could do it---then so could our attorneys.


I am not an attorney and I am sure that our guys WILL NOT sign on to something that could get them again----and there would have to be assurances. Otherwise, it would be Chap 7. Could you see what could happen if they tried to pull crap like that with us? I bet we would grind to a halt.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Vortilon]

If I am not mistaken, the company and DALPA can agree that any side letter agreement (such as the particulars of our recall agreement) are non precedent setting for legal purposes.

Lets just see what this agreement (if and when it happens) says before we all burst an aneurism.

 

[General Lee]

I already burst something, in the back of my shorts!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

If Delta needs to retain the Captains, Delta needs to provide the incentive for them to stay, and that incentive should NOT come out of the hide of the OTHER pilots at Delta.

TonyC you are right. I think it will be interesting, to say the least, to see what emerges from negotiations. One scenario I would not have as much heartburn over would be allowing a Delta seniority list pilot in a critical category to cash in on his lump sum prior to his scheduled retirement date. IOW, A 767-400 Captain would state on September 30th his intention to retire NLT February 1st, giving the company a maximum of 4 months to fill his seat. The pilot would receive his lump sum as if he had retired October 1st, but he would retain his Delta seniority pending his actual retirement which would be either the date a Delta pilot can replace him or February 1st whichever is earlier. Any adjustments to his lump sum due to a change in his FAE would be made payable on February 1st. This would mean that the 767-400 is still flown by a DAL seniority list pilot, the pilot would still get his lump sum pay out in case the company attempts to terminate the pension during a BK filing (the biggest concern of most retiring DAL pilots) and the 767-400 would still be flying. Just thinking out loud, so shoot away.