Continental to Furlough

[Jonny Sacko]

The CAL MEC hates age 65. There is going to be a decent early out deal put on the table and the old guys need to take it. Many will. Those who don't need to be treated as scabs with renewed prejudice.

I've let this chap me all day, so now I will respond to it. First, I always like reading your thoughts, and history accounts. I believe your unionist beliefs are very similar to mine, with differences. But this statement can only be covered by 2 circumstances.

First, you are mistaken and don't remember the resolution signed by EVERY member on the MEC currently stating what you've stated, except it most definitely says "WE WANT THE CHANGE". That's a fact. Please look it up, if that was just a simple mistake. If so, no problem, but most definitely CAL ALPA IS FOR AGE65. That groups short sightedness, and selfish move now will cause hundreds to loose their job's for these over 60 guys. Just facts.

Second, if you are indeed sticking up for the MEC, you might be on there or have a close friend on the board. The first furlough that hits the street will start an instant charge for removal of these same individuals for the above reason. SOMEONE WILL TAKE BLAME FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Pushing blame everywhere else except at the exact error, will do NO good. I will gladly lead, or be loudest for this action. It's deplorable for a group to shut out those over 60, and also to F!28ck those F/O's for some arrogant attitude, "It doesn't really pertain to me, I've got a couple more years to decide what I want to do". MORON, where do you think those years are coming from? The F/O you just "took it back" from right in their ass! That shortsighted selfish moronic attitude should be hung or shot to clean the slate, but I'm sure those idiots will continue to try and push blame elsewhere.

We all know that early out will be crap. Why push such dribble again. It will be NOTHING. The Scabs will stay and enjoy their pay for another 5 years at the cost of the true talent hired in the past 5 years who can or would have made the company as strong as it possibly could be. Great job you short sided morons. (if it's not you, fine, please pass that message along to your friend).

First furlough. Furloughs should be in order of over 60's and then start at the bottom. CAL ALPA is definitely PRO 65. No lies. The answer from the brain power explaining C02 wouldn't allow a voting of options is another FARCE.

Enough of this, if it's not you fine. If it is, I hope you rot in hell for your selfishness. Chunky and his sidekick Lynch (who looks like he's at least 350lbs now), will not get the boot deserved, because of your WEAK friends again. All lies. DO SOMETHING, DO ANYTHING. Tell them that!

 

[A19]

I've let this chap me all day, so now I will respond to it. First, I always like reading your thoughts, and history accounts. I believe your unionist beliefs are very similar to mine, with differences. But this statement can only be covered by 2 circumstances.

First, you are mistaken and don't remember the resolution signed by EVERY member on the MEC currently stating what you've stated, except it most definitely says "WE WANT THE CHANGE". That's a fact. Please look it up, if that was just a simple mistake. If so, no problem, but most definitely CAL ALPA IS FOR AGE65. That groups short sightedness, and selfish move now will cause hundreds to loose their job's for these over 60 guys. Just facts.

Second, if you are indeed sticking up for the MEC, you might be on there or have a close friend on the board. The first furlough that hits the street will start an instant charge for removal of these same individuals for the above reason. SOMEONE WILL TAKE BLAME FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Pushing blame everywhere else except at the exact error, will do NO good. I will gladly lead, or be loudest for this action. It's deplorable for a group to shut out those over 60, and also to F!28ck those F/O's for some arrogant attitude, "It doesn't really pertain to me, I've got a couple more years to decide what I want to do". MORON, where do you think those years are coming from? The F/O you just "took it back" from right in their ass! That shortsighted selfish moronic attitude should be hung or shot to clean the slate, but I'm sure those idiots will continue to try and push blame elsewhere.

We all know that early out will be crap. Why push such dribble again. It will be NOTHING. The Scabs will stay and enjoy their pay for another 5 years at the cost of the true talent hired in the past 5 years who can or would have made the company as strong as it possibly could be. Great job you short sided morons. (if it's not you, fine, please pass that message along to your friend).

First furlough. Furloughs should be in order of over 60's and then start at the bottom. CAL ALPA is definitely PRO 65. No lies. The answer from the brain power explaining C02 wouldn't allow a voting of options is another FARCE.

Enough of this, if it's not you fine. If it is, I hope you rot in hell for your selfishness. Chunky and his sidekick Lynch (who looks like he's at least 350lbs now), will not get the boot deserved, because of your WEAK friends again. All lies. DO SOMETHING, DO ANYTHING. Tell them that!

Now that was WELL SAID!

 

[embpic1]

I've let this chap me all day, so now I will respond to it. First, I always like reading your thoughts, and history accounts. I believe your unionist beliefs are very similar to mine, with differences. But this statement can only be covered by 2 circumstances.

First, you are mistaken and don't remember the resolution signed by EVERY member on the MEC currently stating what you've stated, except it most definitely says "WE WANT THE CHANGE". That's a fact. Please look it up, if that was just a simple mistake. If so, no problem, but most definitely CAL ALPA IS FOR AGE65. That groups short sightedness, and selfish move now will cause hundreds to loose their job's for these over 60 guys. Just facts.

Second, if you are indeed sticking up for the MEC, you might be on there or have a close friend on the board. The first furlough that hits the street will start an instant charge for removal of these same individuals for the above reason. SOMEONE WILL TAKE BLAME FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Pushing blame everywhere else except at the exact error, will do NO good. I will gladly lead, or be loudest for this action. It's deplorable for a group to shut out those over 60, and also to F!28ck those F/O's for some arrogant attitude, "It doesn't really pertain to me, I've got a couple more years to decide what I want to do". MORON, where do you think those years are coming from? The F/O you just "took it back" from right in their ass! That shortsighted selfish moronic attitude should be hung or shot to clean the slate, but I'm sure those idiots will continue to try and push blame elsewhere.

We all know that early out will be crap. Why push such dribble again. It will be NOTHING. The Scabs will stay and enjoy their pay for another 5 years at the cost of the true talent hired in the past 5 years who can or would have made the company as strong as it possibly could be. Great job you short sided morons. (if it's not you, fine, please pass that message along to your friend).

First furlough. Furloughs should be in order of over 60's and then start at the bottom. CAL ALPA is definitely PRO 65. No lies. The answer from the brain power explaining C02 wouldn't allow a voting of options is another FARCE.

Enough of this, if it's not you fine. If it is, I hope you rot in hell for your selfishness. Chunky and his sidekick Lynch (who looks like he's at least 350lbs now), will not get the boot deserved, because of your WEAK friends again. All lies. DO SOMETHING, DO ANYTHING. Tell them that!

Sure, the age 65 rule is causing some real problems for the younger/junior people right now. It sucks and everyone seems to want to hang anyone over 60. You know what though. I bet that the vast majority of the people bitching here would not hesitate to do the same thing. Five more years at top pay in very trying economic times? Don't give me this 'You had your time, time to retire' crap. I have not met one pilot that retired at 60 in the past that didn't say 'I'm not ready yet. I want to keep flying'. The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

 

[mamba20]

Sure, the age 65 rule is causing some real problems for the younger/junior people right now. It sucks and everyone seems to want to hang anyone over 60. You know what though. I bet that the vast majority of the people bitching here would not hesitate to do the same thing. Five more years at top pay in very trying economic times? Don't give me this 'You had your time, time to retire' crap. I have not met one pilot that retired at 60 in the past that didn't say 'I'm not ready yet. I want to keep flying'. The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

I hate age 65, they should have planned better! They are screwing those of us that are junior. Hinging their retirement based on the age 60 increase is a load of crap and I dont feel the least bit sorry for any of them.

As someone who may be furloughed in the fall let me tell you that when I'm recalled (if I accept it and havent found something better) there is no way in hell I'm going to 65. I'll be lucky if I make it to 55, past that, its not worth the damage to my health that this industry causes.

 

[pianoman]

The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

Because now we'll have to.

 

[SMOE]

Sure, the age 65 rule is causing some real problems for the younger/junior people right now. It sucks and everyone seems to want to hang anyone over 60. You know what though. I bet that the vast majority of the people bitching here would not hesitate to do the same thing. Five more years at top pay in very trying economic times? Don't give me this 'You had your time, time to retire' crap. I have not met one pilot that retired at 60 in the past that didn't say 'I'm not ready yet. I want to keep flying'. The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

Who the hell wants this lifestyle 'till 65? I for one will not go to 65 just because I can. In career number one (USAF) I could've stayed 30 years. But, when its time to go, its time to go. It wasn't fun anymore and I walked out the door just shy of 25 years service.
Funny but we even had some 30 year guys asking for waivers to stay longer. These are also the guys that typically keel over a couple of months after retirement because the job was their whole world.

Career number 2 is rapidly becoming not fun anymore. Perhaps I'll figure out career number 3 in Sept...

 

[Flopgut]

Duplicate post

 

[Flopgut]

I've let this chap me all day, so now I will respond to it. First, I always like reading your thoughts, and history accounts. I believe your unionist beliefs are very similar to mine, with differences. But this statement can only be covered by 2 circumstances.

First, you are mistaken and don't remember the resolution signed by EVERY member on the MEC currently stating what you've stated, except it most definitely says "WE WANT THE CHANGE". That's a fact. Please look it up, if that was just a simple mistake. If so, no problem, but most definitely CAL ALPA IS FOR AGE65. That groups short sightedness, and selfish move now will cause hundreds to loose their job's for these over 60 guys. Just facts.

Second, if you are indeed sticking up for the MEC, you might be on there or have a close friend on the board. The first furlough that hits the street will start an instant charge for removal of these same individuals for the above reason. SOMEONE WILL TAKE BLAME FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Pushing blame everywhere else except at the exact error, will do NO good. I will gladly lead, or be loudest for this action. It's deplorable for a group to shut out those over 60, and also to F!28ck those F/O's for some arrogant attitude, "It doesn't really pertain to me, I've got a couple more years to decide what I want to do". MORON, where do you think those years are coming from? The F/O you just "took it back" from right in their ass! That shortsighted selfish moronic attitude should be hung or shot to clean the slate, but I'm sure those idiots will continue to try and push blame elsewhere.

We all know that early out will be crap. Why push such dribble again. It will be NOTHING. The Scabs will stay and enjoy their pay for another 5 years at the cost of the true talent hired in the past 5 years who can or would have made the company as strong as it possibly could be. Great job you short sided morons. (if it's not you, fine, please pass that message along to your friend).

First furlough. Furloughs should be in order of over 60's and then start at the bottom. CAL ALPA is definitely PRO 65. No lies. The answer from the brain power explaining C02 wouldn't allow a voting of options is another FARCE.

Enough of this, if it's not you fine. If it is, I hope you rot in hell for your selfishness. Chunky and his sidekick Lynch (who looks like he's at least 350lbs now), will not get the boot deserved, because of your WEAK friends again. All lies. DO SOMETHING, DO ANYTHING. Tell them that!

I'm not on the MEC and I don't particuliarly want to defend them. I would welcome a public and brutal recall of ALL of them...if they can't mitigate the adversity we face.

I interact with my rep, MEC Chair JP and a few members of the NC as much as anybody who is not in an official capacity. I've done so for at least two years prior to age 65 and we're getting down to crunch time. We have just a few moves left to salvage jobs for the membership. At this moment, an early out package is our best move. I have to tell you: This current group is efforting the early retirement package more than you know! (ant the company is at least partially onboard) I can't imagine we could replace them with another group who will work harder on this. Now down the road, I'm ready to recall all these dipsh!ts if they can't make it work. I'll be ready for CAL to leave ALPA, frankly.

I will look for the exact quote you are speaking of. Was it during Prater's office? I can tell you this as gospel: When the initial ruling allowing instructors over 60 back to the line contrary to 4343 language, your MEC chair activated ALPA legal to fight it tooth and nail (He knew that was going to possibly open a floodgate) and his effort was squelched!! It was squelched by Prater via the FAA. It really pissed off the CAL MEC and that is why I'm saying he was closer to recall than you think.

I like that you're pi$$ed off!! That's cool, keep it up. Make sure to direct that at your rep and the whole MEC. I think that if a fair early out is on the table and old guys don't take it--it should become completely untenable for them to come to work. Because at that point, it will only be because they are senior and because they have zero regard for the rest of us. Period.

 

[Flopgut]

Sure, the age 65 rule is causing some real problems for the younger/junior people right now. It sucks and everyone seems to want to hang anyone over 60. You know what though. I bet that the vast majority of the people bitching here would not hesitate to do the same thing. Five more years at top pay in very trying economic times? Don't give me this 'You had your time, time to retire' crap. I have not met one pilot that retired at 60 in the past that didn't say 'I'm not ready yet. I want to keep flying'. The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

Here's the difference: Age 65, 70, 90. 800 or 18 doesn't matter. It's very likely to remain some age as a limit and that will always be arbitrary. What the proponents of age 65 did was to campaign for someone else's job!! Big difference. This rule was changed to not only pull the ladder up, but to also exclude those over 60. This was an incremental, opportunistic change and it's much bigger than simply the age you retire at. It takes a uniquely sinister and dispicable sort of person to actively campaign for another's job, and this generation of immenint retirees has no shortage of them.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Thanks man. The resolution was signed by WB, CU, and others. I believe AB and LB also signed it. It sent Tommy to the smoke meeting. It was the resolution specifically for that meeting with Chunky. That's the one showing exactly what I say. I promise it's fact. I don't have it any longer, cause it just pissed me off with such frustration I canned it. Like they deserve after the 1st furlough.

As for the idiot that says we will all work to 65 cause we want to, and would have done the same, I hope your veins lock up and that chunk moves up in to your pea brain. Wonder what that is? How's that chest you "GUMMER"

 

[CA1900]

Furloughs are no laughing matter. A lot of kids could go hungry and a lot of lives will be very hard. I'm glad that it's such a joke to you.

I'm quite sure it's no joke to BigMeat.

Starbucks offers health benefits to people without a college degree, much less an ATP. What is wrong with this picture?

That's because a Starbucks makes more profit in an hour than your RJ makes all day.

 

[embpic1]

Look guys, I know the 65 change is an emotional topic. I myself, like many others are being affected by it. This law change did not happen because a bunch of guys coming up on 60 wanted to take junior pilot jobs. This happened as a result of our government and the FAA bringing our retirement age in line with ICAO.

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=8027

So for most of the guys that were coming up on 60, this was a windfall. At a time when so much was given up in concessions, this was an opportunity to make more money before retirement. No one is forcing these guys to fly to 65. If they are sick of the lifestyle and BS that we put up with on a daily basis then by all means retire. Many are deciding not to retire.

I guess my point is this. If we were in the same position as they are, I think most of us would do what they are doing. Yes is sucks for us junior guys, but that's life. Age 65 is here. All the bitching won't change it.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Sure, the age 65 rule is causing some real problems for the younger/junior people right now. It sucks and everyone seems to want to hang anyone over 60. You know what though. I bet that the vast majority of the people bitching here would not hesitate to do the same thing. Five more years at top pay in very trying economic times? Don't give me this 'You had your time, time to retire' crap. I have not met one pilot that retired at 60 in the past that didn't say 'I'm not ready yet. I want to keep flying'. The funny thing is that when all these people bitching reach 60 in 20-30 years, I bet not one of them will retire. All will go to 65.

Reality speaks!

Listen to reality.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I guess my point is this. If we were in the same position as they are, I think most of us would do what they are doing. Yes is sucks for us junior guys, but that's life. Age 65 is here. All the bitching won't change it.

Yet another dose of reality. Hey, my advancement has been curtailed by guys over 60 stayiing on, too. But the law is the law. 60/65. WGAS?

Its reality. Deal with it. Or hit the political trail to change it back. But biatching about it won't do a damn thing.

Sure, some guys are getting a 5 year windfall. However, there are those of us out here that are still planning to exit at 60 or earlier if our individual contract languages allow.

Those, however, as we all know, are flexible too. Whatever scenario exists at retirement time drives each of our decisions.

Villifying individuals because they elect to exercise lawful contractual options comes off as whining, greedy behavior.

 

[Superpilot92]

:uzi: Fly Till You Die, Geezers!!:smash:

 

[SMOE]

.

...Villifying individuals because they elect to exercise lawful contractual options comes off as whining, greedy behavior.

More like: Gummers electing to exercise lawful contractual options, screwing those below them IS whining (stay outa my seat!) AND greedy behavior.

 

[Old School]

where did u get the avatar

 

[SMOE]

where did u get the avatar

Um Deutschland ;-)

 

[JoeMerchant]

....can you feel the love?...

What happened to the "unity" at CAL? You can march in uniform till the cows come home....but it is clear we have some internal issues in this so-called "union".....

Unity isn't about marching together....It is about having concern about each other....Clearly we don't really have any concern for each other in ALPA...

 

[SMOE]

....can you feel the love?...

What happened to the "unity" at CAL? You can march in uniform till the cows come home....but it is clear we have some internal issues in this so-called "union".....

Unity isn't about marching together....It is about having concern about each other....Clearly we don't really have any concern for each other in ALPA...

There's unity:
The top third is united in screwing everyone else for their own benefit...
The middle third is united in going happily through life with their heads in the sand...
The bottom third is united in knowing it will get thrown under the bus by the other 2/3rds ...again.

How's that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

There's unity:
The top third is united in screwing everyone else for their own benefit...
The middle third is united in going happily through life with their heads in the sand...
The bottom third is united in knowing it will get thrown under the bus by the other 2/3rds ...again.

How's that?

That's the truth.....I like it when people tell the truth....You aren't union leadership material however.....

 

[SMOE]

That's the truth.....I like it when people tell the truth....You aren't union leadership material however.....

Your right. I would have to possess exceptional multi-tasking skills.

e.g. To be Union Leadership I would have to figure out a way to piss on the pilot group, convince them its raining, all the while dealing a nice cushy management job to fall into after the next POS is ratified.

 

[Flopgut]

Villifying individuals because they elect to exercise lawful contractual options comes off as whining, greedy behavior.

Contractural!? There's nothing contractural about it! Age 65 was seniority aggression outside the collective bargaining process.

If there's a legitimate early out that some pilots choose not to take simply because they happen to be senior they will be rightfully villified.

 

[Flopgut]

Look guys, I know the 65 change is an emotional topic. I myself, like many others are being affected by it. This law change did not happen because a bunch of guys coming up on 60 wanted to take junior pilot jobs. This happened as a result of our government and the FAA bringing our retirement age in line with ICAO.

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=8027

So for most of the guys that were coming up on 60, this was a windfall. At a time when so much was given up in concessions, this was an opportunity to make more money before retirement. No one is forcing these guys to fly to 65. If they are sick of the lifestyle and BS that we put up with on a daily basis then by all means retire. Many are deciding not to retire.

I guess my point is this. If we were in the same position as they are, I think most of us would do what they are doing. Yes is sucks for us junior guys, but that's life. Age 65 is here. All the bitching won't change it.

I think your worldview on this issue is too simplistic.

You pose the question: What would we do if we were them? Well, what did they do when they were in our position? Years ago I could go on a 4 day trip (I'm CAL) with a striker and by the end of the trip the guy hadn't stopped bitching about the strike and had accounted for every nickel he lost to replacement workers. He had his scab list out more than his charts! (This was less than ten years ago BTW) Now, fast forward to the present. This dude took my seat, no less outside the CBA, and it's supposed to be perfectly OK?? Right. Account for this past behavior in your reasoning and you'll come to realize those of us marginalized have already proven ourselves more accepting and professional than those who preceed us. It's not improper that as this new rule plays out to assert ourselves and manage the effects in the mean time. If there's a good early out and guys don't take it, it is appropriate to point out to them how they acted when they were marginalized.

 

[Ex737Driver]

I think your worldview on this issue is too simplistic.

You pose the question: What would we do if we were them? Well, what did they do when they were in our position? Years ago I could go on a 4 day trip (I'm CAL) with a striker and by the end of the trip the guy hadn't stopped bitching about the strike and had accounted for every nickel he lost to replacement workers. He had his scab list out more than his charts! (This was less than ten years ago BTW) Now, fast forward to the present. This dude took my seat, no less outside the CBA, and it's supposed to be perfectly OK?? Right. Account for this past behavior in your reasoning and you'll come to realize those of us marginalized have already proven ourselves more accepting and professional than those who preceed us. It's not improper that as this new rule plays out to assert ourselves and manage the effects in the mean time. If there's a good early out and guys don't take it, it is appropriate to point out to them how they acted when they were marginalized.

What one generation accepts, the next embraces. Look at diversity and homosexuality for examples.

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

Raising the retirement age was the right thing to do but it was the wrong time to do it. At this point, everything in the industry is going down the drain to fuel prices, bankruptcies to quality of life. The icing on the cake was the Age 65 rule. All these guys saying they are not ready to retire is nonsense because 10 years ago they all KNEW they had to hit the door at 60. When the rumblings of a rule change were being heard then everyone had a change of heart. As far as the union goes, from my estimation they are only looking out for the guys at the top of the seniority list. Everyone else might else well be on probation because there isn't anyone looking out for them. For those guys that are getting furloughed at CAL why don't send a thank you card to those "Age 65 guys" that says "Enjoy your stay and I hope you save your money this time."

 

[densoo]

There's unity:
The top third is united in screwing everyone else for their own benefit...
The middle third is united in going happily through life with their heads in the sand...
The bottom third is united in knowing it will get thrown under the bus by the other 2/3rds ...again.

How's that?

And it works extremely well at CAL. The furlough cycles hit right the time they're finalizing a contract. The B3rd isn't represented because furloughed pilots can't vote. Their pay, benefits, work rules (reserve by and large), are robbed. After the contract is signed the recalls start. Management has kept the overall cost of the contract is low, senior guys kept their retirement and middle guys kept their jobs.

 

[SFR]

I would not worry too much about what is going to happen.

The best time to be furloughed at CAL is in the first year anyway. That is exactly what I wanted my first year, it cost me more to go to work then.

Either way, if they offer 3-6 month leaves I may jump on that. I am 1100 from bottom. There are a handful of us that will take time off, so hopfullywe will minimize furloughs.

Sebd

 

[whatitdoing?]

I'd go for it too. I'm on the verge of quiting, so a 6 month leave would be fine.

 

[SMOE]

I'd go for it too. I'm on the verge of quiting, so a 6 month leave would be fine.

Ich Auch!!!!!!!!!!!!