Continental pilots/post merger.....ALPA pins?

[bizicmo]

The reason I have not worn a pin in the past is the same reason I don't wear ear rings, bracelets, brooches, boutineers, corsages, don't have a tattoo, don't have bag stickers, don't have bumper stickers, don't have posters or paintings or pictures on my walls, don't put up christmas lights or tree. I'm, i guess, a minimalist. I don't care for any jewelry or flare.

 

[Turtle21]

I guess the question is.... why would one not wear the pin?

Basically the non scab pilots who don't wear the pin are saying... Me (and my reasons for not wearing the pin) are bigger than all of us and anything we can achieve collectively. I am unique, special and are deserving of a special consideration that I have carved out for myself.

What is sophomoric is creating idealistic expectations, then going cynical when those 'expectations' aren't met. For example a National Seniority List or SOS. Most pilots who are not scabs who don't wear an ALPA pin do so for 'pet' issues or personal (real or perceived) slights.

A mature attitude would be knowing that ALPA isn't a panacea. That, like any human organization such as church, govt, corporations, NGO's, etc.. there are going to be gains and loses. Unions (ALPA) is expected to make gains and protect careers, so when it does so (and it has!) the attitude is.. "yeah, well, I expect ALPA do that... so what". However, when there is a loss, even if it is not ALPA's burden such as 9/11 or the BK era, ALPA certainly gets heavy dose of negativity that doesn't match the reciprocal of positive.

A mature attitude would also not take for granted long standing protections and benefits.

A mature attitude would realize that (as shown in the UAL 85 strike) that solidarity, meaning everyone pulling on the same rope, is feared by management. And that non scabs with slick ties only serves as a crack for management to drive its wedge.....to divide and conquer....

Knowing this... is not wearing the pin... that important?

Or said differently..... what does one expect to gain by not wearing the pin?

You know as I read your post I started to realize that you make some excellent points and I started to feel a bit guilty about not wearing my ALPA pin these last few years... but then I flipped over my shoe and lo and behold what did I see stuck upside down in the heal of my work shoes? A piece of chewing gum on one and a 20 year pin on the other. I'm gonna keep wearing it so my shoes are balanced.

 

[densoo]

The reason I have not worn a pin in the past is the same reason I don't wear ear rings, bracelets, brooches, boutineers, corsages, don't have a tattoo, don't have bag stickers, don't have bumper stickers, don't have posters or paintings or pictures on my walls, don't put up christmas lights or tree. I'm, i guess, a minimalist. I don't care for any jewelry or flare.

So the way you distinguish yourself is to not distinguish yourself. The loner, the independent, the inscrutable.

Speaks just as loudly as someone who distinguishes themselves with a haircut, the clothing, the pin. Both are choices and both speak equally distinctly.

 

[vetrider]

Let's see how long eaglesview has a woody for his alpa pin when he doesn't like the list that comes out. I smell a little something in the air, but I'll leave well enough alone, I've already butted in enough.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

The reason I have not worn a pin in the past is the same reason I don't wear ear rings, bracelets, brooches, boutineers, corsages, don't have a tattoo, don't have bag stickers, don't have bumper stickers, don't have posters or paintings or pictures on my walls, don't put up christmas lights or tree. I'm, i guess, a minimalist. I don't care for any jewelry or flare.

The problem is, you've got it all backwards. The ALPA pin is part of your basic uniform, while the slick tie is the flair, loudly proclaiming to your fellow pilots that you're a scab, management sycophant, just don't give a rat's a$$ or some combination of the above, while simultaneously proclaiming to mgt that you don't support your fellow pilots or union and will probably vote yes on whatever POS they send your way.

Wearing the ALPA pin has nothing to do with how you feel about your union or your fellow pilots. It has everything to do with the PERCEPTION of how you feel. That is why myself, and many other unionist pilots, will look at the tie of the guy approaching in the terminal, then look away in disgust if it is slick, or smile and give the nod if union pin is present. Andre Agassi said it best, "Image is everything!"

 

[Turtle21]

..smile and give the nod if union pin is present...

Oh, I wear two union pins. The old union pin under my heal and my new union pin on my tie. Here's to freedom for pilots to vote, and smilin' with ya.

 

[vetrider]

Oh, I wear two union pins. The old union pin under my heal and my new union pin on my tie. Here's to freedom for pilots to vote, and smilin' with ya.

I wear two pins myself, alpo on one sole, and usapa on the other. Better balance that way, remember?

Anyhow, I'll shut up now, I have a feeling I'm gonna get told to get lost on this thread real soon. Eaglesview has had no problem butting in on LCC threads so I don't feel any guilt there, but that is not the rest of the guys' on this threads problem.

 

[Turtle21]

I wear two pins myself, alpo on one sole, and usapa on the other. Better balance that way, remember?

Anyhow, I'll shut up now, I have a feeling I'm gonna get told to get lost on this thread real soon. Eaglesview has had no problem butting in on LCC threads so I don't feel any guilt there, but that is not the rest of the guys' on this threads problem.

Yes I remember. Your vote is your vote, bro, and that is more important than any union that thinks they know better than the vote of the pilots.

 

[eaglesview]

Let's see how long eaglesview has a woody for his alpa pin when he doesn't like the list that comes out. I smell a little something in the air, but I'll leave well enough alone, I've already butted in enough.

Try reading some of my posts concerning ALPA. I am about as anti ALPA as they get however... They are the union on the property so I would prefer to show support for my fellow pilots rather than give management the illusion that I do not support my MEC's efforts.

As for butting in...feel free.. it's an open forum. type away.

 

[vetrider]

Try reading some of my posts concerning ALPA. I am about as anti ALPA as they get however... They are the union on the property so I would prefer to show support for my fellow pilots rather than give management the illusion that I do not support my MEC's efforts.

As for butting in...feel free.. it's an open forum. type away.

I've gathered that from some of your posts. I'm still curious how you'll feel about wearing the pin despite it all after CAL gets a fair shake in the arbitrated award and Prater doesn't grant you all the fancy colored committees.

Doesn't matter, you know who to call.

 

[eaglesview]

I've gathered that from some of your posts. I'm still curious how you'll feel about wearing the pin despite it all after CAL gets a fair shake in the arbitrated award and Prater doesn't grant you all the fancy colored committees.

Doesn't matter, you know who to call.

Same answer as before. I'll wear the pin until (if/when) ALPA no longer represents me.

 

[IAHERJ]

The problem is, you've got it all backwards. The ALPA pin is part of your basic uniform, while the slick tie is the flair, loudly proclaiming to your fellow pilots that you're a scab, management sycophant, just don't give a rat's a$$ or some combination of the above, while simultaneously proclaiming to mgt that you don't support your fellow pilots or union and will probably vote yes on whatever POS they send your way.

Wearing the ALPA pin has nothing to do with how you feel about your union or your fellow pilots. It has everything to do with the PERCEPTION of how you feel. That is why myself, and many other unionist pilots, will look at the tie of the guy approaching in the terminal, then look away in disgust if it is slick, or smile and give the nod if union pin is present. Andre Agassi said it best, "Image is everything!"

Good post. We not only have a problem at CAL with pilots that don't wear the pin, but too many that do wear the pin, wear it incorrectly. It doesn't go 2 inches from the bottom. It goes a bit North of the halfway point so it can be seen when your coat is buttoned. We have a lot of complete slobs here. Sad thing is that many of the slobs now want to lose the hats, coats etc. in favor of even more casual uniforms now that we are going through a uniform change. Sad, just sad. I encourage any CAL pilot to visit Tarpy Tailors in LAX right across from the In-N-Out Burger. Captain Tarpy was one of the first 30 pilots hired at CAL and founded the uniform company that, to this day; hand makes the uniforms right here in the U.S.A. Take a look at the collection of CAL wings and uniforms from years past. Did you know CAL pilots wore double breasted blazers for years? 747 captains had an extra stripe as well. Do you think the pilots of the 60-70's would appreciate the way many of our pilots carry themselves at work today? I see way too many cheap "Summer" pants worn by overweight pilots that are more suited to someone working on a toilet or a sink(my apologies to all the fine plumbers out there). I digress. Just wear the damn alpa pin, and wear it in the right place on the tie.

 

[eaglesview]

The problem is, you've got it all backwards. The ALPA pin is part of your basic uniform, while the slick tie is the flair, loudly proclaiming to your fellow pilots that you're a scab, management sycophant, just don't give a rat's a$$ or some combination of the above, while simultaneously proclaiming to mgt that you don't support your fellow pilots or union and will probably vote yes on whatever POS they send your way.

Wearing the ALPA pin has nothing to do with how you feel about your union or your fellow pilots. It has everything to do with the PERCEPTION of how you feel. That is why myself, and many other unionist pilots, will look at the tie of the guy approaching in the terminal, then look away in disgust if it is slick, or smile and give the nod if union pin is present. Andre Agassi said it best, "Image is everything!"

Fantastic post, right on the money!!

 

[Flopgut]

How long do we hold on to old history?


That is a pretty sad statement that the old guys aren't equipped to help out.... if not them, then who?

How long? Forever.....

Did you see the ATA interview article with Captain Babitt from July (I think)? He insists in the article that flight and duty time should only be changed in a way that doesn"t require more pilots?! Captain Prater can't change it in a efficient manner but somehow managed to get the retirement age changed instantly, the middle of the night. Look at how ALPA helped these guys throughout their carrers and compare that with what they are doing now. I know Randy is a politition now, but come on! He's not confused about safety; He wouldn't want to fly these schedules we are. ALPA's problem is generational. When the baby boomers have moved on we'll be better off. Worst group of Americans ever. It's not just aviation.

 

[Twotter Driver]

You nailed it with this post! I agree completely!

Good post. We not only have a problem at CAL with pilots that don't wear the pin, but too many that do wear the pin, wear it incorrectly. It doesn't go 2 inches from the bottom. It goes a bit North of the halfway point so it can be seen when your coat is buttoned. We have a lot of complete slobs here. Sad thing is that many of the slobs now want to lose the hats, coats etc. in favor of even more casual uniforms now that we are going through a uniform change. Sad, just sad. I encourage any CAL pilot to visit Tarpy Tailors in LAX right across from the In-N-Out Burger. Captain Tarpy was one of the first 30 pilots hired at CAL and founded the uniform company that, to this day; hand makes the uniforms right here in the U.S.A. Take a look at the collection of CAL wings and uniforms from years past. Did you know CAL pilots wore double breasted blazers for years? 747 captains had an extra stripe as well. Do you think the pilots of the 60-70's would appreciate the way many of our pilots carry themselves at work today? I see way too many cheap "Summer" pants worn by overweight pilots that are more suited to someone working on a toilet or a sink(my apologies to all the fine plumbers out there). I digress. Just wear the damn alpa pin, and wear it in the right place on the tie.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good post. We not only have a problem at CAL with pilots that don't wear the pin, but too many that do wear the pin, wear it incorrectly. It doesn't go 2 inches from the bottom. It goes a bit North of the halfway point so it can be seen when your coat is buttoned. We have a lot of complete slobs here. Sad thing is that many of the slobs now want to lose the hats, coats etc. in favor of even more casual uniforms now that we are going through a uniform change. Sad, just sad. I encourage any CAL pilot to visit Tarpy Tailors in LAX right across from the In-N-Out Burger. Captain Tarpy was one of the first 30 pilots hired at CAL and founded the uniform company that, to this day; hand makes the uniforms right here in the U.S.A. Take a look at the collection of CAL wings and uniforms from years past. Did you know CAL pilots wore double breasted blazers for years? 747 captains had an extra stripe as well. Do you think the pilots of the 60-70's would appreciate the way many of our pilots carry themselves at work today? I see way too many cheap "Summer" pants worn by overweight pilots that are more suited to someone working on a toilet or a sink(my apologies to all the fine plumbers out there). I digress. Just wear the damn alpa pin, and wear it in the right place on the tie.

Sounds like managements degradation of the professional image has been accepted well over at CAL (as well as the rest of the pilot cadre)....and the pilots have bought into..... seems pay has degredated too....

Sure it is easy, fun and comfortable to relax uniform standards....

from an outsider.... the CAL embroidered wings have a negative image.... hopefully they will get lost in the merger.....

Also, the Army of One rant from the CAL pilot that was put out a few years..... seems to contribute to the individualism seen on this thread....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So the way you distinguish yourself is to not distinguish yourself. The loner, the independent, the inscrutable.

Speaks just as loudly as someone who distinguishes themselves with a haircut, the clothing, the pin. Both are choices and both speak equally distinctly.

choosing not to chose is still a choice

 

[densoo]

Originally Posted by densoo
So the way you distinguish yourself is to not distinguish yourself. The loner, the independent, the inscrutable.

Speaks just as loudly as someone who distinguishes themselves with a haircut, the clothing, the pin. Both are choices and both speak equally distinctly.

choosing not to chose is still a choice

Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough. Your post summarizes exactly what I was trying to say. "Both are choices and speak equally distinctly"--a blank tie is as loud as a pinned one and everyone understands your position from it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Perhaps my post wasn't clear enough. Your post summarizes exactly what I was trying to say. "Both are choices and speak equally distinctly"--a blank tie is as loud as a pinned one and everyone understands your position from it.

agreed!

 

[IAHERJ]

Sounds like managements degradation of the professional image has been accepted well over at CAL (as well as the rest of the pilot cadre)....and the pilots have bought into..... seems pay has degredated too....

Sure it is easy, fun and comfortable to relax uniform standards....

from an outsider.... the CAL embroidered wings have a negative image.... hopefully they will get lost in the merger.....

Also, the Army of One rant from the CAL pilot that was put out a few years..... seems to contribute to the individualism seen on this thread....

I agree the embroidered wings aren't all that hot. I, and most other FO's wear the metal wings. Unlike several other carriers, we have to wear wings all year long on our shirts and on our blazers as well in the Winter(or on any Intl. trip excluding Mexico/Central America). I don't mind the embroidered wings for winter when you have to wear the blazer with wings all the time anyway but I still don't order shirts with the wings embroidered as I refuse to wear them in the Summer when they will be showing. Didn't NWA wear no wings in the Summer? How about AA. I see AA guys with no wings in the Summer. I know Delta wears them year round.

 

[eaglesview]

I don't know about AA or DL but we (UAL) have to wear them year round.

 

[densoo]

We not only have a problem at CAL with pilots that don't wear the pin, but too many that do wear the pin, wear it incorrectly. It doesn't go 2 inches from the bottom. It goes a bit North of the halfway point so it can be seen when your coat is buttoned. We have a lot of complete slobs here. Sad thing is that many of the slobs now want to lose the hats, coats etc. in favor of even more casual uniforms now that we are going through a uniform change.

I understand AA had, or used to have, a "pinning" ceremony where new hires were proudly awarded their wings. I also heard that this was done with a bit of fanfare, in front of static display of a DC-3 hearkening back to the days of those who built this profession. Wives, children, and significant others were invited, dressed up for the occasion. A light lunch followed.

Compare this to CAL which "awarded" their wings by putting them on the empty desks in a flip-lock sandwich baggie while the class was out on a piss break on the fourth morning of new hire indoc. Came back from relieving ourselves and we couldn't have been prouder.

Two corporate cultures, two pilots groups, two messages. When you walk through the airport, this is what you're seeing. When your vector is that far off, that early in the flight, it's hard to end up in the right place.

I digress. Just wear the damn alpa pin, and wear it in the right place on the tie.

I totally agree.

 

[Flopgut]

Sounds like managements degradation of the professional image has been accepted well over at CAL (as well as the rest of the pilot cadre)....and the pilots have bought into..... seems pay has degredated too....

Sure it is easy, fun and comfortable to relax uniform standards....

from an outsider.... the CAL embroidered wings have a negative image.... hopefully they will get lost in the merger.....

Also, the Army of One rant from the CAL pilot that was put out a few years..... seems to contribute to the individualism seen on this thread....

Uh, hold on there bud. The uniform standards are what they are at CAL for certain reasons. The group has been rode hard and put up wet for too many years. As you said, you're an "outsider" so let me get you up to speed. The work rules have been so bad, for so long, mgt has come to realize they can't police the uniform too close. You can't clean a uniform that you don't hardly ever remove! I'm not kidding. Look at the flight attendants. They're as ugly as home made soap! (true at almost all airlines today) No wonder; If they aren't flying they're asleep. That's all they have time for. The real tragedy in all this is that too many guys like you are happy to take up Mgt's sword and lash out at your fellow pilots over a uniform issue. While your head is up and locked and you ignore the larger truth. Absent a certain pay/time off metric, you aren't going to have a pilot group that looks like they came out of Hollywood's central casting.

Additionally, and I don't think any of you could possibly understand this without being at CAL and understanding the history, we have a lot of ALPA martyrs. That's a big deal. Too many of the pilots screwed over by ALPA have ended up at CAL. It's hard for some guys to put the ALPA pin on and if any of you really cared to find out why I think you might understand. I wear mine, but certain pilots' slick ties don't bother me.

 

[Flopgut]

Anybody recall what CAL was like prior to Lorenzo? The "proud bird with the golden tail". I'd put CAL's pre Lorenzo image/brand/culture up against any in history anywhere if the world. It was a fine airline and a great place to be a pilot. So what's the difference now? BS pay, terrible work rules, and a dispicable management culture.

 

[vetrider]

Wings or no wings. Pins or no pins. We just need to drop a few damn pounds and shine our shoes, that is if we have real shoes to shine. If we have tire tread clod hoppers we should ditch em for a real pair, and them shine em. We'll be good to go, the rest is just politics.

 

[UALRATT]

I understand AA had, or used to have, a "pinning" ceremony where new hires were proudly awarded their wings. I also heard that this was done with a bit of fanfare, in front of static display of a DC-3 hearkening back to the days of those who built this profession. Wives, children, and significant others were invited, dressed up for the occasion. A light lunch followed.

Compare this to CAL which "awarded" their wings by putting them on the empty desks in a flip-lock sandwich baggie while the class was out on a piss break on the fourth morning of new hire indoc. Came back from relieving ourselves and we couldn't have been prouder.

Two corporate cultures, two pilots groups, two messages. When you walk through the airport, this is what you're seeing. When your vector is that far off, that early in the flight, it's hard to end up in the right place.



I totally agree.

UAL also has a special wings presentation ceremony held under the "Tribute to Elrey Jeppesen" sculpture at DIA airport. A retired UAL captain presents each new hire, their wings (shirt and coat) and cap emblem in a well appointed display case. The ceremony was capped with individual and group photo moments for remembering the occasion. I expect this culture to prevail...

 

[Flopgut]

A retired UAL captain presents each new hire, their wings (shirt and coat) and cap emblem in a well appointed display case.

I would be concerned about the sort of retired Captain you'd have on hand these days. Guy would hold the wings like a dagger and stab the new hire in the back....

 

[Furloughed80]

The CEO came down to the training center, handed out the wings, shook hands, and gave a short speech with a Q&A when I was hired at CAL a few years ago.

 

[SFR]

Wings or no wings. Pins or no pins. We just need to drop a few damn pounds and shine our shoes, that is if we have real shoes to shine. If we have tire tread clod hoppers we should ditch em for a real pair, and them shine em. We'll be good to go, the rest is just politics.

I agree, too many fat pilots, looks very un-professional. They should have us weigh in once a month.

I have no problem with that, then again I don't stuff my face every night with ice cream & cheese cakes.

 

[UALRATT]

The CEO came down to the training center, handed out the wings, shook hands, and gave a short speech with a Q&A when I was hired at CAL a few years ago.

My Q&A wit glenn T didn't go too well in my recall class a few years ago...I think he was rather pissed when he left the room...