Considering the military route.

[fly_me12]

Yea Right

.
I'm not too worried about the mental challenge of OTS/UPT/SUPT. I don't mean to brag, but I've attended a top-tier engineering school for over 5 years, have been busting my ass, and am usually ranked in the top 10% of my classes.

Dude, you crack me up! I almost $hit my pants when I read that comment.

I guess you have already been to OTS then..huh?

OTS is nothing like college....AT ALL!
Just like UPT is not like a run-of-the-mill flight School. Just because you study hard, and make good grades now, does not mean that you are ready for the "mental" challenge of OTS, and is not any indication that you will succeed in the Air Force. If so, than they would only pick candidates with good GPA’s from great colleges.

OTS is more than academics. In fact, many state the academics are easy. There is a lot more to OTS than you think. It teaches you leadership, responsibility, Time management, Attention to Detail, sacrifice, commitment, and a lot more. They will rip you a new A$$hole for folding your socks wrong. Everything you do will be wrong, and you will have to be a man about it.

I would love to see the look on your face, when you tell your flight commander, or an upperclassman what you stated here.

If you think you are going to join the Air Force, and breeze through OTS. Than the first think you should do is: grab the back of your neck, and pull your head out of your A$$.

I wish you luck, and I hope you get past the board, and your physical so you can make it to OTS. There, you will get a check up by DR. Reality, and you will learn a few things. Based on your comments here, I would bet that you don’t make it through the first week.

I would stick to your original plan(to save yourself time and humiliation), and go through the civilian route, paying for your hours with bananas. Hopefully you will not run into any “Mohamed Atta’s” along your way.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

And so it begins...

 

[secks]

Re: Yea Right

Dude, you crack me up! I almost $hit my pants when I read that comment.

I guess you have already been to OTS then..huh?

OTS is nothing like college....AT ALL!
Just like UPT is not like a run-of-the-mill flight School. Just because you study hard, and make good grades now, does not mean that you are ready for the "mental" challenge of OTS, and is not any indication that you will succeed in the Air Force. If so, than they would only pick candidates with good GPA’s from great colleges.

It may be nothing like college, but those who select future OTS students do heavily weigh academics. I know for a fact that they seek applicants with high GPAs and high qualifying test scores. Are they the only candidates? No, but they are preferred.

I think college performance is a good indicator of how well a student will perform in UPT. A high GPA in a difficult curriculum indicates above average discipline and competence. Don't you think those two qualities are important in flight school?

OTS is more than academics. In fact, many state the academics are easy. There is a lot more to OTS than you think. It teaches you leadership, responsibility, Time management, Attention to Detail, sacrifice, commitment, and a lot more. They will rip you a new A$$hole for folding your socks wrong. Everything you do will be wrong, and you will have to be a man about it.

Sounds a hell of a lot like a heavy college schedule, minus the leadership. However, instead an officer yelling at your for folding your socks incorrectly, a professor will fail a problem for a sign error.

I would love to see the look on your face, when you tell your flight commander, or an upperclassman what you stated here.

Yeah, it's preposterous to think that someone who has done well in a difficult college curriculum might be well-prepared for a rough time at OTS/UPT.

If you think you are going to join the Air Force, and breeze through OTS. Than the first think you should do is: grab the back of your neck, and pull your head out of your A$$.

I wish you luck, and I hope you get past the board, and your physical so you can make it to OTS. There, you will get a check up by DR. Reality, and you will learn a few things. Based on your comments here, I would bet that you don’t make it through the first week.

I never said I thought I would "breeze" through OTS. I simply said that I was not too worried about it. You're putting words in my mouth. And don't bother wishing me luck unless you really mean it. When and if I do choose to pursue the AF route, you will lose your bet.

I would stick to your original plan(to save yourself time and humiliation), and go through the civilian route, paying for your hours with bananas. Hopefully you will not run into any “Mohamed Atta’s” along your way.

This statement speaks volumes to how you view those who take the civilian route in order to pursue their dreams. And you think I should take my head out of my ass.

 

[Flaco]

I'm sure that none of your classmates are motivated by what awaits them after their 12 years, or the opportunity to operate military hardware. After all, only "selfish" people would do that.

I'll tell you what drives my classmates. The opportunity to serve their country and drop bombs on bad dudes' heads. No, really, that's what we're there for.

I'm sure you have some desire, however small, to serve your country. The problem is that it's obvious that service ranks very low on your list of priorities. Anyone on this board that's involved with military aviation can see that based on your previous posts.

I think college performance is a good indicator of how well a student will perform in UPT. A high GPA in a difficult curriculum indicates above average discipline and competence. Don't you think those two qualities are important in flight school?

The last two guys that washed out of our class were the Air Force Academy class of 2002 class president and an engineer from a top notch school. Reason: they couldn't fly. Both great dudes, much smarter than I.

GPA has nothing to do with UPT. Get over yourself. Some of the guys in my class that are doing well barely graduated college (after 7+ years). UPT is more about attitude than any number on a piece of paper.

I'm telling you man, you're in for a rude awakening. If you want to dedicate yourself to something greater than the airlines (your country) and are willing to risk your life for it, than welcome aboard. Otherwise, stick with what you know.

 

[fly_me12]

A "smart guy" would not start telling a bunch of military professionals that: "he knows what it takes, and it is not difficult."


There is no sense arguing with this guy, he doesn't get it, and he'll never get it. Stick to your formulas pall.

 

[secks]

A "smart guy" would not start telling a bunch of military professionals that: "he knows what it takes, and it is not difficult."


There is no sense arguing with this guy, he doesn't get it, and he'll never get it. Stick to your formulas pall.

And an even smarter man claims that people made statements they never made. It looks like reading for detail isn't your specialty, which is disturbing, considering your career route. Where did I say "I know what it takes, and it is not difficult"? Bottom line is, I didn't. Next time you make accusations, at least support them. Also, you might want to try debating my points, instead of copping-out with the old "I won't bother with this guy" routine.

Originally posted by flaco

The last two guys that washed out of our class were the Air Force Academy class of 2002 class president and an engineer from a top notch school. Reason: they couldn't fly. Both great dudes, much smarter than I.

GPA has nothing to do with UPT. Get over yourself. Some of the guys in my class that are doing well barely graduated college (after 7+ years). UPT is more about attitude than any number on a piece of paper.

Fair enough, some great students do flunk out of flight school. What's your point? How many poor students flunk out of flight school?

As for getting over myself, it's been done. Years of busting my ass and occasionally having it handed to me have both toughened and humbled me. The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about.

 

[talondriver]

The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about.

But, you ARE a stranger to military training.

If you go that route, keep your mouth shut and you'll do fine.

 

[f9driver]

Washout

Just an ironic matter of interest. My Navy Pre-flight roommate washed out of advanced, flying Panthers at NAAS Kingsville, Texas, one week prior to graduating. He and another buddy went to Laredo and on the way home threw an empty whiskey bottle out of the car and it struck a cop car hidden on the side of the road. He subsequently flew crop-dusters in Hawaii for the next 30 years. It seemed such a waste but he liked to surf so maybe it wasn't.

 

[46Driver]

Years of busting my ass and occasionally having it handed to me have both toughened and humbled me. The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about. [/B]

Hmmm, You could always try the Marine Corps for flight school: no intelligence required, just a high threshold of pain. SIR YES SIR.

 

[AlbieF15]

I find it rather amusing and interesting that guys who a year ago were begging for OTS gouge and UPT gouge are now the "dispensers of knowledge" and are the barometers of a poster's professionalism and potential to be an AF officer.

The AF is going to demand a huge chunk of your time, energy, effort, and soul if you are going to be a successful military pilot. Any shortcuts along the way will get you in trouble, and guys like TalonDriver will put a boot in your butt on the way out of UPT faster than you can blink. There are plenty of dedicated T-1 and T-37 guys who also won't put up with a guy who doesn't have the heart, brains, or internal fortitude to make a valuable contribution as a pilot.

That being said, I seriously doubt there are but a handful of young LTs out there who are in the right position to make the call on who will or won't be a valuable member of the team. I would also say being a "selectee" to go to UPT hardly makes you the perfect guy to screen future candidates. If you do a post search, you'll see along the way I told many "wannabes" that the military is a great job until someone schedules a war or your good buddy from XXX gets killed in an accident. It is a tough and demanding job that requires you have not only good job skills, but a set of ideals that allow you to sacrifice your own goals (sometimes) for the greater good. However...its also a job you can do...IF you are willing to hit the training hard and IF you are willing to recognize the sacrifice the job entails. Its not just another "flying job"--its a way of life that requires you become an "officer first"--and that phrase isn't just empty mantra but is critical if you are to succeed.

So...if you've ever sent me a PM asking how to chase your UPT dream, don't turn around now and tell someone else to "do us a favor and stay out". Be a bro, pass on what you DO know, and have a little confidence in the system. If someone really isn't the right person, the system will puke them out somewhere along in the training cycle. A dirty little secret---not everyone who shows up to UPT is a true patriot when they start--they likely have a bit of their own agenda. However, I'll bet darn few don't have a pretty solid set of values by the time the get to their first base and look back at all they had to do to get where they are. A few deployments/rotes/inspections working together chases a lot of the "me" out of young guys and shows them what they can accomplish by working together. Most "old guys" who look back are more patriotic looking back than they were when they were 23 looking ahead. A lot of realizing what it takes to be a good officer comes from BEING an officer. A lot of what makes you appreciate the hard work in OTS, UPT, etc is DOING the hard work and understanding the teamwork and joint effort it takes to be successful.

Seck...go chase your dream. But understand it will be hard...even if you are smart. Its fast paced, requires a team mindset (even though you are working for YOUR wings its a class project), and it will different than anything you've ever done. Never pass up an opportunity to "shut your hole". That said...it is a great way of life, and we need good folks. Jump in and give it a shot...

 

[THT]

I find it rather amusing and interesting that guys who a year ago were begging for OTS gouge and UPT gouge are now the "dispensers of knowledge" and are the barometers of a poster's professionalism and potential to be an AF officer.

SNIP...

As a naive UPT selectee headed to OTS in two weeks I decided to stay out of this one, but after following this thread I'd have to say I agree most with this post. I think it's really hard to predict what kind of officer one will be before they even enter the military based solely on their comments on a message board. Everyone has their own reasons for joining the AF and although I'm not interested in the airlines, I'm not joining solely for the purpose of serving my country. I'm joining for the opportunity to fly military aircraft and recieve the best training possible, which will ultimately make me the best pilot that I can be. I guess you could call that self-serving but I am rather patriotic and grateful for the chance to serve my country as an AF pilot.

In addition to the chance of going to war and being shot at, there's always the chance of dying in an accident as well. As a AF dependant I remember when my friends father died in a F-16 midair at Ramstein in the mid 80's. Although I was only like 9-10 years old, I remember how hard it was on the kid and his family, not to mention the squadron. I know you want to fly heavies, but accidents do happen more frequestly in military aviation. Something else to think about.

 

[T1bubba]

Lots of folks show up at OTS/OCS/UPT brimming with confidence about just how great they're going to do. It usually doesn't last long.

I spent about a year and a half dealing with every student at a certain UPT base that didn't leave with wings on their chest for whatever reason. There are no common denominators for those who don't make it through. Even those of us with insight into the attrition process couldn't predict who would make it through the flying portion of the program and who wouldn't. Anyone who can predict success in UPT can make a fortune selling that info to the USAF because they are always looking for ways to reduce attrition and get the most bang for their training dollars.

On the other hand, I can think of several situations involving attitude and integrity where it was obvious someone wasn't going to make it through very early into their time at UPT.

Patmack- there's a big difference between someone being a bit overconfident and insulting military officers. I remember that WOFT hopeful as well as another thread even longer ago by some Navy wannabe who had some airline time... I couldn't agree more with the last line in your post, though.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Great thread...

Secks, as you can see there are all kinds of opinions out there...here's mine. I got into the AF in the late 80's purely to serve my time, get the experience and go fly for an airline. That's it! I went in with that goal in mind and regardless of what some people might want to think because of my aspirations, the character of my service was never anything other than honorable. I did what I was told, when I was told. When the time came that my obligation to the government was finished I simply resigned. At no point did I ever consider the military as a career option, not even for a short time. My thinking was that if I couldn't get an airline job I'd find something else to do.

Active duty had a lot of downsides and a few upsides as well. Moving around a lot gets to be a drag. Seeing the world sounds fun until you realize that most of the 'world' you'll see is in base ops (at least for this ex T-tail Mafioso). You'll be besieged by the "compete or die" crowd that always seem to be DNIF (sick) or on leave when the $hit comes calling. The military is very much like a major corporation with just as many cutthroat, get-aheads. Keep in mind that doing your JOB is your service and not buying into the BS will keep you sane. Also remember that the military actively recruits enlisted folks on the promise of training, then a period of service, then discharge to a great job or college. Officers are the same way! Out of my UPT class of 26, 18 of us graduated. Other than one ex-army rotorhead only ONE guy stayed in. We are ALL at the airlines and none of us regrets a thing. Life is good. The challenges along the way were just that...little roadblocks that you have to get over. OTS and UPT are unlike most of what you've done in your life because things are done the military way, not the normal way. Once you get into the 'groove' you'll fit right in. After training is over most units are concerned with getting the work done. At least that's the way it was in heavies. Stuff had to be moved, so we moved it.

For the upsides, the biggest bennie are the lifelong friendships that you'll gain. I've met and maintained contact with more guys over the years than I can count. The trust that you develop between each other is something that you won't find anywhere else (except maybe among police or firemen). Plus it's an INCREDIBLE network when it comes time to apply to the airlines.

Here's the 2 cents: Consider all your options; go for a guard/reserve job should it present itself, if not then consider active duty. If you've got the financial ability the civilian route isn't out of the question either, but it sure is nice to live above the poverty line even when in training.

Good luck with your decisions.

 

[HueyPilot]

Service

I've got to agree with the above post. I don't look down upon those who want to do their stint then get out and look for work on the outside, not one bit. If there's one thing, they've served their country 500 times more than the average American. I myself have taken a bit of flak and "looks" from my own chain of command when I mention that I plan on going back to the Reserves (had 8 years ARNG experience prior to AD anyways) and that I'm perfectly happy retiring at 20 years as a Major.

That's the #1 bad side to the military...all the "fast burners" who are so intent on one day commanding a squadron or pinning on O-6 that they'll stab you in the back if you're not watching it. And those are the very same guys who'll try to make you feel bad for being a poor citizen for not wanting to achieve the same goals they want. If you ask me, 99% of those guys are worse than the person who wants to do an honest 8 years as a mil pilot and fly for the airlines...those guys put service second to their own personal careers. But on paper...they look like the perfect patriot because for them, being "patriotic" and "service before self" are a means to an end...a 25-30 year career that nets them O-6 or above.

I'll defend to the day I die someone's decision to put in the minimum service and then get out. That's what our country is founded on, and I'm glad that those individuals at least want to serve. If you look down on the guys who don't plan on 20 years and know they are going for an airline job later in life, then what do you think about Mr. Smith who served a 2 year enlistment, got out and worked the rest of his life in civilian jobs? Is he not a patriot either? Did he "use" the military? NO. A day of service, as I've said before, is one day more than 90% of Americans ever contribute.

Secks:

Go ahead and go for your goal of flying for the military. Understand though that having good grades and attending high-ranking colleges won't guarantee success at either OTS or UPT. Staying focused and dealing with the situation at hand in the best manner possible is what will get you through. And if you give it 110% and get washed out...well, at least you gave it a go.

Stay focused while you are in uniform, and give the nation your best effort. It's not how long you stay in, but how well you did your job while you were in service that equates, in my mind, whether or not you "used" the military. If you serve and do the bare minimum until you get out...then that's not the right way to do things. If you do your 8-10 years, and give the military a 100% effort throughout, you've given honorable service and that's something to be proud of.

The military will offer you alot that going the civilian route won't give you. You'll certainly have a wide array of experience. I don't know too many civilian-trained airline pilots that have flown worldwide, and dealt with combat operations, flying in formation, refueling other airplanes, doing air-to-air refueling themselves, or have landed on a dirt airstrip at night wearing goggles. So you'll have some good stories to tell when you're retired, and overall you'll be a better person for the experience. You'll also become a member of a great net of connections, which will serve you when you get out. And as the above poster mentioned...you'll make some great friends flying for the military. These folks aren't here to show up, fly an airplane, collect a check and go home to the family. These guys are dedicated beyond schedules and paychecks, and you'll literally live with them from time to time.

Good luck getting to where you want to be.

 

[Yahtzee]

Talondriver,

How's life at CBM? Just when I get checked out in the new jet, slots open up. Maybe I'll be back in my favorite XC machine one day.

P.S. How's Sonic doing these days? I wonder how many Girl Scout cookies he bought. He wouldn't give me the pleasure of telling me how many phone calls he got. Somehow I don't think he was happy with me.


Secks,

In my experience, attitude had more to do with success in UPT than anything else. The most common factor I saw among DGs was humility and a willingness to help their classmates.

Yahtz