Considering the military route.

[JimNtexas]

The AF trusts our judgement on whether a student rates being a pilot...macho or not. ...

It's not your judgement I'm worried about. I just think that if significant numbers of student pilots are washing out late in the program, then something is wrong with the training system and the Training Command staff needs to do more work on identifiying unsuitable students early on.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I don't know what it's like today in SUPT, but when I was going through in '98 there was definitely a push from leadership somewhere in AETC to not wash guys out of SUPT. I have a friend two classes away who was re-instated *three times* by the Wing Commander after failing his 89 ride in Tweets and a subsequent Progress Check.

Anyway, in IFF we are still washing out near the same "historical" washout rate for Smurfs...slightly less than one per class of about 15.

 

[talondriver]

I believe leadership thought the SUPT route would solve the problem. It did in a way...and didn't in others. I know a guy who washed out the week of graduation (graduations are on Fridays). His parents were already in town. Talk about being crushed...and I think his dad was a colonel. He was probably one of the "leakers" that shouldn't have gotten that far.


If this was civilian training, everyone would get through...eventually. Unfortunately it's not (remember the banana comment?) and students need to progress to certain levels of the syllabus (without using tons of bananas).

Bananas=tax money

Frustration with leadership...that never happens!

 

[JimNtexas]

Anyway, in IFF we are still washing out near the same "historical" washout rate for Smurfs...slightly less than one per class of about 15.

Don't most of those guys get FEB'd into multipilot airplanes?

And to contridict myself, when I went to what is now called IFF they washed out a nav in my class for being totally clueless, and they were right to do it. This was surprising because back then IFF for navs was basically a series of T-38 dollar rides, so you had to be really bad to even register on the IP's radar.

 

[Draginass]

Of course it was in 1980 that I went to UPT . . . . prior to the T-6, separate transport and fighter/bomber tracks, and all. My UPT class attrition was right at one-third, for all reasons including SIE. And our class was very typical for overall attrition. All our loses were in T-37s. Amazingly enough, no attrition in T-38s, which typically claimed a few victums from being unable to learn to land the jet in the time alloted.

Washing-out occurred pretty quickly. Fail your 89 ride and you were gone. In follow-on RTU, attrition was virtually zero, however.

 

[Vinman]

Boy this thread has really wandered. Not that I'm complaining as it also has had some interesting info. First off, I just was notified two days ago that I was selected by the OTS 0308 Selection Board. I am 29, and going to have to be working hard to reach UPT by my 30th in Feb. I should be starting OTS Sept. 29th. I am former civilian airline and looking forward to serving my country and putting my skills to GOOD use instead of lining the pockets of idiot upper managers. OK, that was my little rant, sorry.

Now for secks, I can put in a little thought on a couple of areas. If you want to go AF, do a little research before taking the AFOQT. Some of the test is on flight aptitude and knowledge. Study a little of basic flight training. Just pick up an initial flight manual and study. I have over 3800 hours of flight time and of course those areas were a breeze for me, but having some knowledge instead of guessing makes yours scores move toward the top of the results.

On some of secks's points:

#1. Being civilian right now is not a great option. It is going to be a few years before the industry rights itself and then a few years before hiring starts to be what it was like 5 years ago. As others have said, it is what you make of it. I have always had a pretty positive attitude and eventually, I just had enough of it. (Please take a pay cut, but we still can't garauntee that we will stay in business.)

#3. Commitment with the AF is 10 years after completion of flight training. Training should take about 2 years so all-in-all about 12 years.

#6. My understanding with active duty is that if I wash out of UPT, then since my "job" is pilot only, I could resign my commision and leave. Current active duty guys, please correct me if I have been misinformed as I still have a few days before I sign on the dotted line.

#7. "Poor" eyesight is pretty vague, but let's try this. Do you "have" to wear your glasses? I have glasses myself and the requirement is 20/70 uncorrected for distance vision (20/20 for near uncorrected). My vision is 20/50 and I wear my glasses to make things "crisp" around the edges. Lots of times I take them off when reading or if I'm not watching TV or driving. This may help you judge things for yourself. Laser surgery isn't much of an option until you are in. They check to make sure that you have never had laser surgury during the class I pilot physical. If you have had it, I think it has to have been done at least 2 years previous.

#8. Lots of pilots from the military go on to become civilian airline pilots with the majors, so "using" Uncle Sam has been done. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you are true to your commitment when you sign the dotted line and realize that it's going to be a tough path.

I wish you luck, and now I would like to steal a bit of your thread since I see some IP's are on here.

I am wondering where UPT and SUPT takes place. Some of my research makes me think that UPT could take place at Maxwell, but possibly others. I want the tanker/airlift route so my research has led me to believe that the T-1 is not at Maxwell at all. Is this correct? Any insight on where my travels will be taking me in the next year or so would be great for curiosity sake. Thanks.

 

[secks]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with "using" the military as a means to further my civilian career. I offer 12 years of my life (education, skills, etc.) and my country offers me the opportunity to fly some great aircraft. A pure example of quid pro quo. Honestly, how many pilots would fly for the military if their flight hours/experience could not be applied towards the civilian sector? Or if they received absolutely no pay while flying? My point is that everyone in the military is there because they're getting something out of it: free education, a unique career, stable employment, or the opportunity to serve your country, etc.

I'm not too worried about the mental challenge of OTS/UPT/SUPT. I don't mean to brag, but I've attended a top-tier engineering school for over 5 years, have been busting my ass, and am usually ranked in the top 10% of my classes.

The physical requirements concern me. My vision is worse than 20/200 (I think). This requires that I undergo PRK (basically LASIK w/o the flap). AFAIK, the AF accepts wavered PRK applicants into UPT: http://www.tyndall.af.mil/325MDG/PRK_Aviation/Table_contents.htm. LASIK is an instant DQ, currently.

Deciding between civilian and military is difficult. The military offers the opportunity to serve my country, receive excellent training, and fly some fantastic aircraft. However, the commitment is long and there is the possibility of flunking flight school. Then, once you're in a unit, you don't know how often you'll fly. The civilian route offers greater freedom, but requires a great deal of money and the perseverance to instruct at a very low wage for an unknown amount of time.

Thanks for the responses, you've given me much to consider.

 

[talondriver]

The military offers the opportunity to serve my country, receive excellent training, and fly some fantastic aircraft. However, the commitment is long and there is the possibility of flunking flight school. Then, once you're in a unit, you don't know how often you'll fly. The civilian route offers greater freedom, but requires a great deal of money and the perseverance to instruct at a very low wage for an unknown amount of time.

There are a lot of people who join the military for the same reasons you brought up. Some of those people even "died" for their country (someone elses). I hope they factored in the dying part when they went for the free flying.

Good luck

 

[Flaco]

Honestly, I don't see the problem with "using" the military as a means to further my civilian career. I offer 12 years of my life (education, skills, etc.) and my country offers me the opportunity to fly some great aircraft. A pure example of quid pro quo. Honestly, how many pilots would fly for the military if their flight hours/experience could not be applied towards the civilian sector? Or if they received absolutely no pay while flying? My point is that everyone in the military is there because they're getting something out of it: free education, a unique career, stable employment, or the opportunity to serve your country, etc.

Dude, have fun in UPT. Your classmates will quickly pick up on the fact that you're only there for yourself and the "civilian career advancement". Your previous post made it obvious that you've never once given thought to "duty, honor, country". You think that you'll "use" the military to get ahead. How much is your life worth? When you think about that question maybe you'll see that you're the one that's going to have to sacrifice.

I'm glad that I don't have a single guy (or girl) in my class with your attitude.

"Deciding between civilian and military is difficult."

Do us a favor and stick with the first.

Flaco

 

[secks]

Dude, have fun in UPT. Your classmates will quickly pick up on the fact that you're only there for yourself and the "civilian career advancement". Your previous post made it obvious that you've never once given thought to "duty, honor, country". You think that you'll "use" the military to get ahead. How much is your life worth? When you think about that question maybe you'll see that you're the one that's going to have to sacrifice.

Wait a second. A man with marketable skills donates 12 years of his life to the military in exchange for the priviledge of flying their aircraft and builing hours, and he is suddenly "selfish"?

Tell me. If in the AF, you only flew C172s, were paid nothing over those 12 years, and your hours didn't count one iota in the civilian sector, you would you still enlist as a pilot? How about each of your classmates? Each and every one of you is motivated by some "selfish" motives. By the way, you don't have any idea of the sacrifices I make in school, and what I will sacrifice by joining the military.

How much is my life worth? You might as well ask anyone this question. The possibility of death is something we all face.

I'm glad that I don't have a single guy (or girl) in my class with your attitude.

"Deciding between civilian and military is difficult."

Do us a favor and stick with the first.

Flaco

Okay, two can play at this game.

I'm sure that none of your classmates are motivated by what awaits them after their 12 years, or the opportunity to operate military hardware. After all, only "selfish" people would do that.

Do me a favor and drop the "holier than thou" attitude.

 

[fly_me12]

Yea Right

.
I'm not too worried about the mental challenge of OTS/UPT/SUPT. I don't mean to brag, but I've attended a top-tier engineering school for over 5 years, have been busting my ass, and am usually ranked in the top 10% of my classes.

Dude, you crack me up! I almost $hit my pants when I read that comment.

I guess you have already been to OTS then..huh?

OTS is nothing like college....AT ALL!
Just like UPT is not like a run-of-the-mill flight School. Just because you study hard, and make good grades now, does not mean that you are ready for the "mental" challenge of OTS, and is not any indication that you will succeed in the Air Force. If so, than they would only pick candidates with good GPA’s from great colleges.

OTS is more than academics. In fact, many state the academics are easy. There is a lot more to OTS than you think. It teaches you leadership, responsibility, Time management, Attention to Detail, sacrifice, commitment, and a lot more. They will rip you a new A$$hole for folding your socks wrong. Everything you do will be wrong, and you will have to be a man about it.

I would love to see the look on your face, when you tell your flight commander, or an upperclassman what you stated here.

If you think you are going to join the Air Force, and breeze through OTS. Than the first think you should do is: grab the back of your neck, and pull your head out of your A$$.

I wish you luck, and I hope you get past the board, and your physical so you can make it to OTS. There, you will get a check up by DR. Reality, and you will learn a few things. Based on your comments here, I would bet that you don’t make it through the first week.

I would stick to your original plan(to save yourself time and humiliation), and go through the civilian route, paying for your hours with bananas. Hopefully you will not run into any “Mohamed Atta’s” along your way.

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

And so it begins...

 

[secks]

Re: Yea Right

Dude, you crack me up! I almost $hit my pants when I read that comment.

I guess you have already been to OTS then..huh?

OTS is nothing like college....AT ALL!
Just like UPT is not like a run-of-the-mill flight School. Just because you study hard, and make good grades now, does not mean that you are ready for the "mental" challenge of OTS, and is not any indication that you will succeed in the Air Force. If so, than they would only pick candidates with good GPA’s from great colleges.

It may be nothing like college, but those who select future OTS students do heavily weigh academics. I know for a fact that they seek applicants with high GPAs and high qualifying test scores. Are they the only candidates? No, but they are preferred.

I think college performance is a good indicator of how well a student will perform in UPT. A high GPA in a difficult curriculum indicates above average discipline and competence. Don't you think those two qualities are important in flight school?

OTS is more than academics. In fact, many state the academics are easy. There is a lot more to OTS than you think. It teaches you leadership, responsibility, Time management, Attention to Detail, sacrifice, commitment, and a lot more. They will rip you a new A$$hole for folding your socks wrong. Everything you do will be wrong, and you will have to be a man about it.

Sounds a hell of a lot like a heavy college schedule, minus the leadership. However, instead an officer yelling at your for folding your socks incorrectly, a professor will fail a problem for a sign error.

I would love to see the look on your face, when you tell your flight commander, or an upperclassman what you stated here.

Yeah, it's preposterous to think that someone who has done well in a difficult college curriculum might be well-prepared for a rough time at OTS/UPT.

If you think you are going to join the Air Force, and breeze through OTS. Than the first think you should do is: grab the back of your neck, and pull your head out of your A$$.

I wish you luck, and I hope you get past the board, and your physical so you can make it to OTS. There, you will get a check up by DR. Reality, and you will learn a few things. Based on your comments here, I would bet that you don’t make it through the first week.

I never said I thought I would "breeze" through OTS. I simply said that I was not too worried about it. You're putting words in my mouth. And don't bother wishing me luck unless you really mean it. When and if I do choose to pursue the AF route, you will lose your bet.

I would stick to your original plan(to save yourself time and humiliation), and go through the civilian route, paying for your hours with bananas. Hopefully you will not run into any “Mohamed Atta’s” along your way.

This statement speaks volumes to how you view those who take the civilian route in order to pursue their dreams. And you think I should take my head out of my ass.

 

[Flaco]

I'm sure that none of your classmates are motivated by what awaits them after their 12 years, or the opportunity to operate military hardware. After all, only "selfish" people would do that.

I'll tell you what drives my classmates. The opportunity to serve their country and drop bombs on bad dudes' heads. No, really, that's what we're there for.

I'm sure you have some desire, however small, to serve your country. The problem is that it's obvious that service ranks very low on your list of priorities. Anyone on this board that's involved with military aviation can see that based on your previous posts.

I think college performance is a good indicator of how well a student will perform in UPT. A high GPA in a difficult curriculum indicates above average discipline and competence. Don't you think those two qualities are important in flight school?

The last two guys that washed out of our class were the Air Force Academy class of 2002 class president and an engineer from a top notch school. Reason: they couldn't fly. Both great dudes, much smarter than I.

GPA has nothing to do with UPT. Get over yourself. Some of the guys in my class that are doing well barely graduated college (after 7+ years). UPT is more about attitude than any number on a piece of paper.

I'm telling you man, you're in for a rude awakening. If you want to dedicate yourself to something greater than the airlines (your country) and are willing to risk your life for it, than welcome aboard. Otherwise, stick with what you know.

 

[fly_me12]

A "smart guy" would not start telling a bunch of military professionals that: "he knows what it takes, and it is not difficult."


There is no sense arguing with this guy, he doesn't get it, and he'll never get it. Stick to your formulas pall.

 

[secks]

A "smart guy" would not start telling a bunch of military professionals that: "he knows what it takes, and it is not difficult."


There is no sense arguing with this guy, he doesn't get it, and he'll never get it. Stick to your formulas pall.

And an even smarter man claims that people made statements they never made. It looks like reading for detail isn't your specialty, which is disturbing, considering your career route. Where did I say "I know what it takes, and it is not difficult"? Bottom line is, I didn't. Next time you make accusations, at least support them. Also, you might want to try debating my points, instead of copping-out with the old "I won't bother with this guy" routine.

Originally posted by flaco

The last two guys that washed out of our class were the Air Force Academy class of 2002 class president and an engineer from a top notch school. Reason: they couldn't fly. Both great dudes, much smarter than I.

GPA has nothing to do with UPT. Get over yourself. Some of the guys in my class that are doing well barely graduated college (after 7+ years). UPT is more about attitude than any number on a piece of paper.

Fair enough, some great students do flunk out of flight school. What's your point? How many poor students flunk out of flight school?

As for getting over myself, it's been done. Years of busting my ass and occasionally having it handed to me have both toughened and humbled me. The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about.

 

[talondriver]

The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about.

But, you ARE a stranger to military training.

If you go that route, keep your mouth shut and you'll do fine.

 

[f9driver]

Washout

Just an ironic matter of interest. My Navy Pre-flight roommate washed out of advanced, flying Panthers at NAAS Kingsville, Texas, one week prior to graduating. He and another buddy went to Laredo and on the way home threw an empty whiskey bottle out of the car and it struck a cop car hidden on the side of the road. He subsequently flew crop-dusters in Hawaii for the next 30 years. It seemed such a waste but he liked to surf so maybe it wasn't.

 

[46Driver]

Years of busting my ass and occasionally having it handed to me have both toughened and humbled me. The only reason I brought up my college experience was to explain that I'm no stranger to hard work and sacrifice, which is what the military is all about. [/B]

Hmmm, You could always try the Marine Corps for flight school: no intelligence required, just a high threshold of pain. SIR YES SIR.

 

[AlbieF15]

I find it rather amusing and interesting that guys who a year ago were begging for OTS gouge and UPT gouge are now the "dispensers of knowledge" and are the barometers of a poster's professionalism and potential to be an AF officer.

The AF is going to demand a huge chunk of your time, energy, effort, and soul if you are going to be a successful military pilot. Any shortcuts along the way will get you in trouble, and guys like TalonDriver will put a boot in your butt on the way out of UPT faster than you can blink. There are plenty of dedicated T-1 and T-37 guys who also won't put up with a guy who doesn't have the heart, brains, or internal fortitude to make a valuable contribution as a pilot.

That being said, I seriously doubt there are but a handful of young LTs out there who are in the right position to make the call on who will or won't be a valuable member of the team. I would also say being a "selectee" to go to UPT hardly makes you the perfect guy to screen future candidates. If you do a post search, you'll see along the way I told many "wannabes" that the military is a great job until someone schedules a war or your good buddy from XXX gets killed in an accident. It is a tough and demanding job that requires you have not only good job skills, but a set of ideals that allow you to sacrifice your own goals (sometimes) for the greater good. However...its also a job you can do...IF you are willing to hit the training hard and IF you are willing to recognize the sacrifice the job entails. Its not just another "flying job"--its a way of life that requires you become an "officer first"--and that phrase isn't just empty mantra but is critical if you are to succeed.

So...if you've ever sent me a PM asking how to chase your UPT dream, don't turn around now and tell someone else to "do us a favor and stay out". Be a bro, pass on what you DO know, and have a little confidence in the system. If someone really isn't the right person, the system will puke them out somewhere along in the training cycle. A dirty little secret---not everyone who shows up to UPT is a true patriot when they start--they likely have a bit of their own agenda. However, I'll bet darn few don't have a pretty solid set of values by the time the get to their first base and look back at all they had to do to get where they are. A few deployments/rotes/inspections working together chases a lot of the "me" out of young guys and shows them what they can accomplish by working together. Most "old guys" who look back are more patriotic looking back than they were when they were 23 looking ahead. A lot of realizing what it takes to be a good officer comes from BEING an officer. A lot of what makes you appreciate the hard work in OTS, UPT, etc is DOING the hard work and understanding the teamwork and joint effort it takes to be successful.

Seck...go chase your dream. But understand it will be hard...even if you are smart. Its fast paced, requires a team mindset (even though you are working for YOUR wings its a class project), and it will different than anything you've ever done. Never pass up an opportunity to "shut your hole". That said...it is a great way of life, and we need good folks. Jump in and give it a shot...