Considering the military route.

[talondriver]

They should be able to select and train people better than that.

I'm not sure what the exact washout rate is but it's lower than it should be. That's not to say we have a lot of bad "stanleys", the majority are awesome. This is T-38 track specific to my base.

We often fail to stop weak students from graduating because of loop holes and using the "pilot shortage" as an excuse to keep weak swimmers in the program. These pilots end up being eliminated either at IFF or their respective RTU (which flings mud in our face for letting them get through). We're getting better though.

Believe it or not, we have more control of the Guard/Reserve students going through because their gaining units are kept informed on the students progress. They often follow our recommendation on whether their candidate is fighter qualified or not.

If you're on your way to SUPT (heavy or fighter), don't bring it weak

Us IPs have a saying: "If you give us 100% we'll give you 110%.
But if you give us anything less, you're f*cked".

 

[talondriver]

I guess I should have added a terminology legend. My apologies.

"stanley": student pilot

IFF: Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. Fighter lead-in done at Moody AFB, GA in the T-38C and Sheppard AFB, TX in the AT-38B.

RTU: Replacement Training Unit. Training for specific fighter aircraft (Tyndall, Luke, D-M, assorted Guard bases)

SUPT: Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training (Columbus, Vance, Laughlin, Sheppard, Moody for T-6)

That should squelch a couple of extra posts

 

[JimNtexas]

There was a guy (who is still a good friend) in my UNT class who had washed out past T-38 solo.

This was right after the SEA war ended and the USAF was in a major drawdown, so nobody was getting any slack in those days.

But to this day I've thought that was terrible waste, for a guy to go that far and then be washed out. It would have been far cheaper to give him a few more rides and let him catch up. In those days he could have gone to a heavy out of T38s if he wasn't ready for PIC.

It's fine to be all macho and everything, but it's the taxpayers money that's being spent, and it shouldn't be spent just for ego gratification of the employees.

T-37/T-6 phase should wash out the weak students, there should be few washouts after that point if the system really works as advertised.

I think if a lot of guys are washing out at the end of T-38s or in IFF, then there is a failure of leadership somewhere.

 

[HueyPilot]

UPT goals

We lost one in my class, and she quit. And to be honest, she was one of those kids that came to UPT expecting to be the next Chuck Yeager...no kidding...she told all of us that she was going to be a fighter pilot and go to TPS...wouldn't settle for less.

And 6 months later she quit before Tweets were even over.

We had about 4 that struggled. One is flying E-3s, two flying C-130s, and a third went to helicopters.

 

[talondriver]

The AF trusts our judgement on whether a student rates being a pilot...macho or not. You know the saying: You can teach a monkey how to fly if you had enough bananas yada yada...

I was a prior nav and wouldn't feel too comfortable knowing I had a pilot pushed through the program flying me around.

 

[JimNtexas]

The AF trusts our judgement on whether a student rates being a pilot...macho or not. ...

It's not your judgement I'm worried about. I just think that if significant numbers of student pilots are washing out late in the program, then something is wrong with the training system and the Training Command staff needs to do more work on identifiying unsuitable students early on.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I don't know what it's like today in SUPT, but when I was going through in '98 there was definitely a push from leadership somewhere in AETC to not wash guys out of SUPT. I have a friend two classes away who was re-instated *three times* by the Wing Commander after failing his 89 ride in Tweets and a subsequent Progress Check.

Anyway, in IFF we are still washing out near the same "historical" washout rate for Smurfs...slightly less than one per class of about 15.

 

[talondriver]

I believe leadership thought the SUPT route would solve the problem. It did in a way...and didn't in others. I know a guy who washed out the week of graduation (graduations are on Fridays). His parents were already in town. Talk about being crushed...and I think his dad was a colonel. He was probably one of the "leakers" that shouldn't have gotten that far.


If this was civilian training, everyone would get through...eventually. Unfortunately it's not (remember the banana comment?) and students need to progress to certain levels of the syllabus (without using tons of bananas).

Bananas=tax money

Frustration with leadership...that never happens!

 

[JimNtexas]

Anyway, in IFF we are still washing out near the same "historical" washout rate for Smurfs...slightly less than one per class of about 15.

Don't most of those guys get FEB'd into multipilot airplanes?

And to contridict myself, when I went to what is now called IFF they washed out a nav in my class for being totally clueless, and they were right to do it. This was surprising because back then IFF for navs was basically a series of T-38 dollar rides, so you had to be really bad to even register on the IP's radar.

 

[Draginass]

Of course it was in 1980 that I went to UPT . . . . prior to the T-6, separate transport and fighter/bomber tracks, and all. My UPT class attrition was right at one-third, for all reasons including SIE. And our class was very typical for overall attrition. All our loses were in T-37s. Amazingly enough, no attrition in T-38s, which typically claimed a few victums from being unable to learn to land the jet in the time alloted.

Washing-out occurred pretty quickly. Fail your 89 ride and you were gone. In follow-on RTU, attrition was virtually zero, however.

 

[Vinman]

Boy this thread has really wandered. Not that I'm complaining as it also has had some interesting info. First off, I just was notified two days ago that I was selected by the OTS 0308 Selection Board. I am 29, and going to have to be working hard to reach UPT by my 30th in Feb. I should be starting OTS Sept. 29th. I am former civilian airline and looking forward to serving my country and putting my skills to GOOD use instead of lining the pockets of idiot upper managers. OK, that was my little rant, sorry.

Now for secks, I can put in a little thought on a couple of areas. If you want to go AF, do a little research before taking the AFOQT. Some of the test is on flight aptitude and knowledge. Study a little of basic flight training. Just pick up an initial flight manual and study. I have over 3800 hours of flight time and of course those areas were a breeze for me, but having some knowledge instead of guessing makes yours scores move toward the top of the results.

On some of secks's points:

#1. Being civilian right now is not a great option. It is going to be a few years before the industry rights itself and then a few years before hiring starts to be what it was like 5 years ago. As others have said, it is what you make of it. I have always had a pretty positive attitude and eventually, I just had enough of it. (Please take a pay cut, but we still can't garauntee that we will stay in business.)

#3. Commitment with the AF is 10 years after completion of flight training. Training should take about 2 years so all-in-all about 12 years.

#6. My understanding with active duty is that if I wash out of UPT, then since my "job" is pilot only, I could resign my commision and leave. Current active duty guys, please correct me if I have been misinformed as I still have a few days before I sign on the dotted line.

#7. "Poor" eyesight is pretty vague, but let's try this. Do you "have" to wear your glasses? I have glasses myself and the requirement is 20/70 uncorrected for distance vision (20/20 for near uncorrected). My vision is 20/50 and I wear my glasses to make things "crisp" around the edges. Lots of times I take them off when reading or if I'm not watching TV or driving. This may help you judge things for yourself. Laser surgery isn't much of an option until you are in. They check to make sure that you have never had laser surgury during the class I pilot physical. If you have had it, I think it has to have been done at least 2 years previous.

#8. Lots of pilots from the military go on to become civilian airline pilots with the majors, so "using" Uncle Sam has been done. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as you are true to your commitment when you sign the dotted line and realize that it's going to be a tough path.

I wish you luck, and now I would like to steal a bit of your thread since I see some IP's are on here.

I am wondering where UPT and SUPT takes place. Some of my research makes me think that UPT could take place at Maxwell, but possibly others. I want the tanker/airlift route so my research has led me to believe that the T-1 is not at Maxwell at all. Is this correct? Any insight on where my travels will be taking me in the next year or so would be great for curiosity sake. Thanks.

 

[secks]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

Honestly, I don't see the problem with "using" the military as a means to further my civilian career. I offer 12 years of my life (education, skills, etc.) and my country offers me the opportunity to fly some great aircraft. A pure example of quid pro quo. Honestly, how many pilots would fly for the military if their flight hours/experience could not be applied towards the civilian sector? Or if they received absolutely no pay while flying? My point is that everyone in the military is there because they're getting something out of it: free education, a unique career, stable employment, or the opportunity to serve your country, etc.

I'm not too worried about the mental challenge of OTS/UPT/SUPT. I don't mean to brag, but I've attended a top-tier engineering school for over 5 years, have been busting my ass, and am usually ranked in the top 10% of my classes.

The physical requirements concern me. My vision is worse than 20/200 (I think). This requires that I undergo PRK (basically LASIK w/o the flap). AFAIK, the AF accepts wavered PRK applicants into UPT: http://www.tyndall.af.mil/325MDG/PRK_Aviation/Table_contents.htm. LASIK is an instant DQ, currently.

Deciding between civilian and military is difficult. The military offers the opportunity to serve my country, receive excellent training, and fly some fantastic aircraft. However, the commitment is long and there is the possibility of flunking flight school. Then, once you're in a unit, you don't know how often you'll fly. The civilian route offers greater freedom, but requires a great deal of money and the perseverance to instruct at a very low wage for an unknown amount of time.

Thanks for the responses, you've given me much to consider.

 

[talondriver]

The military offers the opportunity to serve my country, receive excellent training, and fly some fantastic aircraft. However, the commitment is long and there is the possibility of flunking flight school. Then, once you're in a unit, you don't know how often you'll fly. The civilian route offers greater freedom, but requires a great deal of money and the perseverance to instruct at a very low wage for an unknown amount of time.

There are a lot of people who join the military for the same reasons you brought up. Some of those people even "died" for their country (someone elses). I hope they factored in the dying part when they went for the free flying.

Good luck

 

[Flaco]

Honestly, I don't see the problem with "using" the military as a means to further my civilian career. I offer 12 years of my life (education, skills, etc.) and my country offers me the opportunity to fly some great aircraft. A pure example of quid pro quo. Honestly, how many pilots would fly for the military if their flight hours/experience could not be applied towards the civilian sector? Or if they received absolutely no pay while flying? My point is that everyone in the military is there because they're getting something out of it: free education, a unique career, stable employment, or the opportunity to serve your country, etc.

Dude, have fun in UPT. Your classmates will quickly pick up on the fact that you're only there for yourself and the "civilian career advancement". Your previous post made it obvious that you've never once given thought to "duty, honor, country". You think that you'll "use" the military to get ahead. How much is your life worth? When you think about that question maybe you'll see that you're the one that's going to have to sacrifice.

I'm glad that I don't have a single guy (or girl) in my class with your attitude.

"Deciding between civilian and military is difficult."

Do us a favor and stick with the first.

Flaco

 

[secks]

Dude, have fun in UPT. Your classmates will quickly pick up on the fact that you're only there for yourself and the "civilian career advancement". Your previous post made it obvious that you've never once given thought to "duty, honor, country". You think that you'll "use" the military to get ahead. How much is your life worth? When you think about that question maybe you'll see that you're the one that's going to have to sacrifice.

Wait a second. A man with marketable skills donates 12 years of his life to the military in exchange for the priviledge of flying their aircraft and builing hours, and he is suddenly "selfish"?

Tell me. If in the AF, you only flew C172s, were paid nothing over those 12 years, and your hours didn't count one iota in the civilian sector, you would you still enlist as a pilot? How about each of your classmates? Each and every one of you is motivated by some "selfish" motives. By the way, you don't have any idea of the sacrifices I make in school, and what I will sacrifice by joining the military.

How much is my life worth? You might as well ask anyone this question. The possibility of death is something we all face.

I'm glad that I don't have a single guy (or girl) in my class with your attitude.

"Deciding between civilian and military is difficult."

Do us a favor and stick with the first.

Flaco

Okay, two can play at this game.

I'm sure that none of your classmates are motivated by what awaits them after their 12 years, or the opportunity to operate military hardware. After all, only "selfish" people would do that.

Do me a favor and drop the "holier than thou" attitude.