Considering the military route.

[secks]

Hello,

I'm a 21 year old college student on the verge of graduating with a degree in computer science and a degree in electrical engineering, 3.8 GPA. I am seriously considering pursuing a lifetime career in aviation, and would like some advice.

My main goal is to eventually fly Boeing heavies for the airlines/cargolines. The civilian route (instructing, PFT, etc) appears risky, expensive, and possibly very depressing. Thus, I'm giving serious consideration to serving my country in exchange for flight training and flight hours.

Unfortunately, I have no military experience, no PPL, and poor eyesight. I am more than willing to undergo PRK to correct my vision, however. Otherwise, I am in good shape.

On with the questions:

1) What are the pros and cons to the AF, AFRES, and ANG?

2) Which branch will provide me with the greatest opportunity to fly? What I fly really doesn't matter, as long as I'm doing something productive for the military (and myself)!

3) What are the commitments with each of the branches?

4) Is there any advantage to going AD?

5) Is it common for the AFRES and ANG to hire pilots full time?

6) What happens if you sign on with the reserve/guard and wash out of UPT?

7) Given the fact that I have poor eyesight, no family connections to a guard/reserve unit, and no PPL, are my chances of being accepted slim to none?

8) If my main goal is to earn enough hours to eventually fly for the majors, would I be better off taking the civilian route?

Thanks for reading.

 

[skyward80]

1) I think the pros and cons of each depends on who you talk to. I like the fact that in the AFRES and ANG, I have the opportunity to build up a civilian career while serving in the military. AD is nice if you're not interested in that too much, because you get all the benefits (healthcare, etc.). I won't say one is better than the other. I just like my track (AFRES KC-10s) cuz I get to fly heavies and build up a civilian career. A big con for me for active duty was not knowing my airframe and base ahead of time. Plus, you get moved around more. I am single, but I am getting sick of moving every couple of years.

2) If you're interested in flight hours, go AF, AFRES, or ANG. You'll want to fly something like a C-130, C-17, KC-135, KC-10, etc. The fighter guys don't get to fly as many hours. Perhaps, the coast guard C-130s might be a way to go to, but I dunno much about that.

3) As far as I know, AF, AFRES, and ANG all require 10 years after the training period which lasts about 2 years.

4) Once again, any advantages are solely in the eye of the beholder. The big thing in my mind are the benefits.

5) Right now full time slots are hard to come by cuz there are so many guys and gals from the majors out on the street. Once they are out of the picture, it's a matter of seniority I believe.

6) Uncle Sam will find you a new home doing another officer duty. Your time commitment would change accordingly.

7) What's your eyesight at? I got hired into my unit even though I lived more than 2000 miles away. Having a PPL would help, but it's not required. They take a look at more than just your ability to fly. I have quite a bit of instructing time, and I think it's safe to say that I can get a chimp to fly if I had enough block time with him.

8) NO! NO! NO! The civilian route is TOTALLY dead for the next few years. The only program I can think of that still works is at Comair. I have done the civilian route, and I can safely tell you that it will not work given the current operating environment. There are people on the street with more hours in the sky than God, with 747, 767, A340 type ratings, etc. As long as they are on the street, people at the bottom of the ladder (read: us) don't get to go anywhere. Don't go civilian unless you know somebody or unless you want to be an instructor slave for a long time, and then fly rent-a-wreck airplanes to who knows where.

Hope this helps a little. #8 is based on my experiences in the last couple of years. I dunno if everybody feels as strongly as I do though.

Lata!
Skyward80

 

[JimNtexas]

If you are in good health and can meet the vision requirement (20/70 I think) you should start today applying to Guard and Reserve units. Take the first UPT slot you get, don't worry about what kind of airplane it is. They are all good.

Search through the military section here for a lot of good info ( and a little BS ) on ANG/AFRES hiring, commissioning and pilot training.

You are in a great position to set yourself up for life and serve your country at the same time!

A lot of guys don't figure this out until they are 26, and then the age limit leaves them standing at the station.

Go ANG/AFRES and you will not regret it. There is a reasonable chance that you can turn the ANG/AFRES into a good full time job while you build time and wait for the airlines to hire you, which one or the other will probably do if you keep your nose clean and don't grow a third eye or something weird.

If you decide to go civil (and if your eyesight is really poor, that may be the only option), then you want to get a partnership in an airplane and start earning the rateings. Think about a Twin Commanche or Apache partnership down the road. As an engineer, you could spend a lot on flying and still live better than a lot of pilots.

If you go the civil route and you have a girlfriend or boyfriend, dump them. If you're married, get your divorce now and avoid the rush. Save for the day when you decide to take a full time job as a CFI or entry level frieght dog. Entry level civil pilot pay is about the size of the roundoff error in your engineering paycheck.

If being in the Military (note capital 'M') is a big motivator to you, then active duty is fine, but if you just want to serve your country by flying Uncle Sam's airplanes then it's really hard to beat the ANG/AFRES.

 

[AlbieF15]

Fly heavies if your heart says to (or your stomach insists!), but not to go be an airline pilot. You can chase your airline dream soon enough on the outside.

If you fly a KC10 or whatever, you get 2-3 years of right seat time. It adds the "total" column, but I don't think that is what gets you hired. PIC Turbine is the magic number...

Now...if you fly fighters/trainers you log PIC from first solo and then every time you fly your single seat/tandem seat jet. There are tons of fighter guys at Delta, United, JetBlue, SWA, etc. I don't know a single guy from any of my squadrons who applied to several airlines and didn't get hired by at least one.

Again...no guarantees, but around 1200-1500 PIC turbine seems to be the "get in the door" number at JetBlue, SWA, or Fedex. I know that all three require some serious PIC time, so your 1000 hours of co-pilot time in a C-5 won't help you until you upgrade to AC and start logging some PIC.

Big picture--if you join the military just to fly for the airlines, you'll be miserable. On the other hand--if you join to chase your dream, have some flying adventures as you serve your country, you'll likely have a blast no matter what you fly. Then, when its time to either separate, retire, or transition to the ANG, etc, you can move on to the civilian workforce.

 

[ToBeKC135Pilot]

Ya just to add a bit here...again nothing wrong whatsoever with planning a civilian career, but please, please, please, do not join to military to go civilian.

I feel a few ways about that: 1) ethically it is a bit shady..using the govt. to finance your personal goals (which isnt aweful I suppose) 2) there are many guys whose sole goal is to serve their country and fly. Please dont prevent them from flying because you wanna go into the airlines.

I am guard, no intention of flying civilian. I think you will love it, but just dont "Use" the military.

Sorry, may have rambled I am just pretty passionate about that issue. Good luck either way

 

[Easywithit]

Navy commitment is 8years for jets (F-18, F-14, EA-6B, and S3) and 7 years for everything else. That is after getting winged which will probably put you in the 10-11 year total AD time.

I think the Marines are the same, but not completely sure. Make sure you talk to a recruiter about your eyes before you go get any kind of surgery. I think that is a disqualifying factor (at the present time).

If you get jets, you're going to fly the Hornet. That is where the future is for Naval Aviation until the JSF is on line. Anyway, good luck and join because you want to serve and know that 10-11years is no joke and non-negotiable.

 

[skyward80]

ToBeKC135Pilot:

Good point. Didn't want to sound like I was going mil for job security. It's a nice little bennie, I'll admit. However, job one is serving my country.

Lata!
Skyward80

 

[JimNtexas]

Ya just to add a bit here...again nothing wrong whatsoever with planning a civilian career, but please, please, please, do not join to military to go civilian.

I feel a few ways about that: 1) ethically it is a bit shady..using the govt. to finance your personal goals (which isnt aweful I suppose) 2) there are many guys whose sole goal is to serve their country and fly. Please dont prevent them from flying because you wanna go into the airlines.

I have a different take on this. If you join any of the Reserve forces, you must be ready, willing, and able to deploy at a moment's notice for as long as the President says. If you join the active force, you must be willing to live where they tell you and take the job they give you for the full span of your comittment. If you are not able to make that comittment, then it is dishonorable to join.

But as long as you are willing to uphold your end of the bargin, there is nothing at all wrong with to think about how to combine service in the reserve forces with a civilian career, and to try and get the best deal for your personal situation.

Some guys join the military planning to retire as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs after 35 years, and then go on to become a Senator or Cabinet Member. Nothing wrong with that.

But there also nothing wrong with a military member planning for this future civilian career in the private sector. It's foolish not to.

 

[ToBeKC135Pilot]

Ya I fully agree. I never meant to imply that a civilian career is wrong. I meant to say that going military ONLY to help a civilian career is wrong.

I think by some replies it seemed I meant otherwise and I did not. Sorry for the confusion!

Adam

 

[46Driver]

Navy commitment is 8years for jets (F-18, F-14, EA-6B, and S3) and 7 years for everything else. That is after getting winged which will probably put you in the 10-11 year total AD time.

I think the Marines are the same, but not completely sure. Make sure you talk to a recruiter about your eyes before you go get any kind of surgery. I think that is a disqualifying factor (at the present time).

If you get jets, you're going to fly the Hornet. That is where the future is for Naval Aviation until the JSF is on line. Anyway, good luck and join because you want to serve and know that 10-11years is no joke and non-negotiable.

The big part of this is: if you get jets. Navy is training more and more helo pilots (probably close to 50% now) and we have been told to expect up to a 40% increase in the number of helo students. Marines always train a substantial number of helo pilots. Your choice will be determined by the needs of the Navy (or Marines). Speaking from personal experience, helo time is nearly useless for major airlines (at several companies such as SouthWest, Jet Blue, FedEx) it is listed as "Other time" along with gliders and balloons. The fact that I and many others were able to transition to a glass cockpit RJ straight from helos is irrelevant

 

[Draginass]

IMHO, you should not join the military unless you want to be an officer first and a pilot second. Wanting to fly is great, but not when you view it only as a personal stepping stone. I knew a few pilots like that in the military and generally, I had little respect for them. Also, if you make it known in pilot training that you're only "here for the beer" that won't make things any easier.

Believe me, any flying you do in the military will be 20 times more interesting and challenging than flying an airliner from Chicago to Omaha. But, you gotta want it bad. Military pilot training is no cakewalk. Expect a third of your class to wash out . . . . maybe even including yourself. If that happens, what's your next choice of career fields? "Civilian" may not be one of the choices.

I think it may be a moot point anyway. If your eyesight is "poor" that will probably disqualify you immediately. Also keep in mind that getting a pilot training slot is probably the most competitive thing you've ever done. They're looking for potential officer's first and pilot aptitude second.

 

[jkarl1]

I totally agree with Draginass. This is not Comair, ERAU, or Flight safety, this is the Air Force! Period. Don’t expect that you can walk into flight training and come out a commercial pilot.

I really don’t know what your intentions are, or your level of motivation, but I can tell you that if you want to go the "Military route" as an alternate to the low economic "civilian route," then your already going in A$$backwards.

There is nothing wrong with pursuing a civilian career while in, or after the military. But, you can not use the military as "Free Flight School" and believe me....you wont. Because the people with that mentality usually leave crying, after their first 7.6 minutes at OTS.

If you want to go military, than you must focus on the Military first, not being a Boeing pilot. (God-Forbid)

I have some questions for you: How do you even know you want to even be a pilot? Do you have any flight time? Anytime in a plane? Been inside one? Can you Fly?

I know it seems like a good "Dream" to be a military pilot, but believe me it is a "nightmare" of work and dedication to get to that point. You have to bust your a$$. And it’s more than any College can put out.

I am not trying to discourage anyone, but I am just warning you to be prepared, because only the toughest survive.

 

[AlbieF15]

It ain't THAT tough....

Ok, OK, a little less gloom here. Let's lighten up on the wannabes a bit.

If you WANT to be a military pilot chances are you can make it. a 33% attrition rate means a 67% success rate. Have you stayed out of the bottom third of most of your peer groups during your life? Chances are the trend will continue in the military if you've been generally pretty successful in your other endevors so far.

Now...right now I don't know what the average UPT attrition rate is, but I'll bet its much closer to half that rate. (T-37/T-38 guys...insights?) Some of the attrition isn't guys "washing out" as much as giving up...finding out flying is harder/different or just not what they expected and deciding its not for them. Some guys who REALLY want it will be eliminated too, but I don't think its going to be at the 33% rate.

I had about 700 civilian hours when I went to UPT. I thought the tweet was "easy" to fly, but I had lots of new stuff to learn (pattern procedures, radio calls, EPs, acro, pulling Gs). I was working VERY hard, but having LOTS of fun, too. I did very well in T-37s and never even thought about "not being able to do this".
Then came T-38s...and you've heard it before....your civilian time doesn't transfer a lot of skills here. If you haven't learned "the AF way" to fly and skated through tweets, this phase is tough. I skinned my nose on my first checkride, but went on to do well the rest of the program. Some of my classmates who stuggled in 37s by this time had caught up and did very well in the program. So...all this is why you hear "attitude and effort" from mil pilots on the board and not "more hours or turbine experience" etc prior to going to UPT.

Final point--I knew I wanted to work for Delta the day I showed up at UPT. I didn't say much about it...it was pointless anyway until I graduated, got wings, fulfilled my 7 years, etc etc. On the other hand, an Auburn classmate who was Mr EVERYTHING in AFROTC was 2 UPT classes behind me. He was going to be a below the zone Major, LTC, and Colonel (he just knew!). He knew anyone who went to the airlines wasn't as patriotic/dedicated as he was... Well...roll the tape. Mr Delta wannabe was in tank battles as a forward air controller in the first Gulf War, and later went on to fly fighters for 12 years active duty. Delta wannabe didn't have any airlines hiring when he was eligible to separate, so he took the bonus and served another hitch. This guy (obviously me) went on to fly in the ANG, get promoted to LTC, and continues to serve. My super cadet buddy, on the other hand, got out at the 10 year point, disappointed that the dynamic and imperfect AF didn't live up to his idealistic impressions. After flying heavies and 37s for a few years, he's a free lance corporate pilot with some side businesses.

Point to all this--you NEVER know at 18, 22, or even 30 where your career will lead. If you want to serve, and love to fly, then the AF is a great option. If you want to be chief of staff--good on you! We need good leaders. If you want to serve a few years then go to the ANG...welcome! The citizen soldier is a valuable asset for the nation. If you want to serve your "hitch" then go contribute to the tax base of the nation in the private sector--go! We'll burn your tax dollars as jet fuel and appreciate your contributions in the civilian world.

Just remember...if you do join....some folks will try to kill you. (of course...even if you don't we have terrorists trying to kill us, which makes being able to shoot back more comforting). You will know a friend or two that will die in accidents along the way. So...take the responsibility seriously and put your game face on, but if this is your dream then you can make it a happen! And maybe I'll even get to fly with you if you decide the F-15 is your dream jet.

Good luck.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Well said!!

The washout rate is somewhere near 10%ish. I should say failure to complete rate. Some don't make it, and some just quit for all the reasons stated by Albie. My life is like an old Soviet Five Year plan, I keep making them, never achieve them and make another one

 

[JimNtexas]

Aviation Week said the other day that the T-6 program washout rate is only 6%, significantly lower than the T-37.

I've always heard the UPT total lose rate is around 15%. I'm not sure what the current figure is, but if it is anything like 1/3 then I'm going to write my congressman and complain.

They should be able to select and train people better than that.

 

[talondriver]

They should be able to select and train people better than that.

I'm not sure what the exact washout rate is but it's lower than it should be. That's not to say we have a lot of bad "stanleys", the majority are awesome. This is T-38 track specific to my base.

We often fail to stop weak students from graduating because of loop holes and using the "pilot shortage" as an excuse to keep weak swimmers in the program. These pilots end up being eliminated either at IFF or their respective RTU (which flings mud in our face for letting them get through). We're getting better though.

Believe it or not, we have more control of the Guard/Reserve students going through because their gaining units are kept informed on the students progress. They often follow our recommendation on whether their candidate is fighter qualified or not.

If you're on your way to SUPT (heavy or fighter), don't bring it weak

Us IPs have a saying: "If you give us 100% we'll give you 110%.
But if you give us anything less, you're f*cked".

 

[talondriver]

I guess I should have added a terminology legend. My apologies.

"stanley": student pilot

IFF: Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. Fighter lead-in done at Moody AFB, GA in the T-38C and Sheppard AFB, TX in the AT-38B.

RTU: Replacement Training Unit. Training for specific fighter aircraft (Tyndall, Luke, D-M, assorted Guard bases)

SUPT: Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training (Columbus, Vance, Laughlin, Sheppard, Moody for T-6)

That should squelch a couple of extra posts

 

[JimNtexas]

There was a guy (who is still a good friend) in my UNT class who had washed out past T-38 solo.

This was right after the SEA war ended and the USAF was in a major drawdown, so nobody was getting any slack in those days.

But to this day I've thought that was terrible waste, for a guy to go that far and then be washed out. It would have been far cheaper to give him a few more rides and let him catch up. In those days he could have gone to a heavy out of T38s if he wasn't ready for PIC.

It's fine to be all macho and everything, but it's the taxpayers money that's being spent, and it shouldn't be spent just for ego gratification of the employees.

T-37/T-6 phase should wash out the weak students, there should be few washouts after that point if the system really works as advertised.

I think if a lot of guys are washing out at the end of T-38s or in IFF, then there is a failure of leadership somewhere.

 

[HueyPilot]

UPT goals

We lost one in my class, and she quit. And to be honest, she was one of those kids that came to UPT expecting to be the next Chuck Yeager...no kidding...she told all of us that she was going to be a fighter pilot and go to TPS...wouldn't settle for less.

And 6 months later she quit before Tweets were even over.

We had about 4 that struggled. One is flying E-3s, two flying C-130s, and a third went to helicopters.

 

[talondriver]

The AF trusts our judgement on whether a student rates being a pilot...macho or not. You know the saying: You can teach a monkey how to fly if you had enough bananas yada yada...

I was a prior nav and wouldn't feel too comfortable knowing I had a pilot pushed through the program flying me around.