Conscientious Objector

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I have a better idea: How about you remove your head from your rectum. It's obvious from your ignorant avatar that you don't have the foggiest fukcing idea what threats our nation faces or the realities of the geo-political and theological positions that our enemies have taken.

Have you ever worn your country's uniform? Didn't think so.

Have you ever attended a classified military intelligence briefing? Didn't think so.

Have you ever stepped foot in a war zone and been the target of enemy fire? Didn't think so.

I'm a six year combat veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq. I have over 350 combat hours in Iraq, and have been shot at more times than I can count. I've attended thousands of intelligence briefings. Most military officers on here can say the same. And you know what? Although I fully understand the threats and our national objective, and I support our leadership and the national mission, I don't have a clue how to form foreign policy. I couldn't even scratch the surface. Furthermore, that's not my job, OR YOURS. Who the fukc are YOU to spew your treasonous non-sense in a public forum, especially during a time of war? What the hell makes YOU an expert?

How about you continue to sit on your ignorant self-righteous ass, riding your tricycle, and let the big boys make the sacrifice doing the dirty work defending you. Just do us all, and your country, a huge favor and keep the cake hole shut with the self-defeating talk. How about a nice cup of shut the fukc up. We're trying to win a war here. The ONLY people you're aiding is our enemies.

You may as well be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the enemy in Iraq with a megaphone shouting at the U.S. troops that they're all losers and need to surrender. It has the EXACT same effect.

Tool.

Don't be such a pu$$y. Our enemies are listening, and they're getting a hard-on.

Thanks for your service. I appreciate it. :beer:

On a side note, I see your brainwashing has been completed. Thanks for the response, although I'm surprised you could get your head out of Cheney's ass long enough to type all that.

 

[Deuce130]

Thanks for your service. I appreciate it. :beer:

On a side note, I see your brainwashing has been completed. Thanks for the response, although I'm surprised you could get your head out of Cheney's ass long enough to type all that.

Again with the Cheney stuff. He really scares you doesn't he? I really don't understand what you mean. Some of you guys on the left really get weird over the Rove/Cheney thing, almost obsessive compulsive type behavior. Really odd, with no basis in fact. But, I guess when you get your news from the Daily Kos you start to believe all the Cheney/Rove/Halliburton rhetoric.

 

[Birdstrike]

I forecasted this repsonse...

as long as you have this mindset... that reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions are just facades. Why fool around... let's go right to guns...

N Korea... Iran.... forget talks... let's start war. True?

To Rez, et al;

My two cents; I think you guys are raising some legitimate questions but you're taking your frustrations on the civilian leadership out on the wrong guys. The military isn't into policy, that's not our charter; we're into executing the policies of those in authority above us.

"Reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions" are what the guys that wear ties do in the Executive and Legistative branches and in the State Dept. The military isn't part of that framework and for good reason. We're one of the US Govt's instruments of power, plain and simple, and the exclusive instrument of power for exerting violence on a massive scale to accomplish US policy objectives.

We're not the economic instrument of power, nor the political or the diplomatic - we're the military and our role is narrow, well-defined, and non-negotiable within the confines of executing legal orders. Put another way, mliitary personnel are trained to kill enemy combatants in the course of accomplishing assigned missions. Period. They do it within the bounds of "the rules of war" or they are removed.

We don't get to "question" the logic, rationale, or thought-process behind our orders. That is not our job. That doesn't mean that those questions shouldn't be asked, indeed, they must be asked, but not by those that are wearing the uniform. That is neither the time nor place.

Raise the questions before you join or after you get out if you feel you must. I sure as helll have. I oppose most of this Bush-Cheney neocon goatfuk in Iraq and have personal disdain for both of them. My views changed significantly after I retired. Most retirees do, to some degree, after they get away from JP8 and the noise dies down in their heads. And especiailly, as in my case, when they have a son at VMI about to commission in the USAF. But while I was on active duty for almost 26 years it was, "Yes, Sir, Yes, Sir, three bags full!!" It has to be that way or the military simply cannot function.

If you guys can appreciate that little key distinction and remember it the next time you have what you believe to be a valid criticism about the strategic or even operational aspects of war, it will help to define the common ground here. Which is that we love our country, want her to have a successful national security policy, and want to see people living in freedom and democracy throughout the world as opposed to living under tyranny and terror.

Good men will disagree on how that's to be accomplished. But those "good men" will not include the voices of active duty military members. They are too busy saluting and moving out smartly to accomplish the mission. There is plenty of time later to question the dumb SOBs who do come up with some of our asinine policies...and I'm doing that now with relish!

 

[hoover]

Wow! This is quite the thread that has evolved since my original post. Just in case anyone has forgotten, the post that started this thread was asking about what options a military pilot has if he decides, for whatever reason, that he can no longer do his job in good conscience. The majority of responses were of the angry "screw-him," "hang the traitor," and "you- knew-what-you-doing-when-you-signed-up" variety.

I have done some more thinking about it, and I realized that a lot can change over the course of a typical military pilot commitment. That's 10 or 11 years a minimum. A lot can happen in 10 years. You can have 4 presidents in 10 years. You can have radical shifts in domestic, foreign, and military policy in 10 years.

Think about what has happened in the last 6 years. We went from a relatively peaceful and stable world to being stuck in another Vietnam style war, with no reason, no objective, no definition of victory, and no exit stratgy. That is not a reason I would join military.

People join the military to defend their country. I don't think they join for the opportunity to make a shambles out of another country. At least I hope not. And if there truly is a reason to do so, then I would hope our President and military leaders would make those reasons clear, and not hide behind a bunch of meaningless rhetoric and executive privilege.

The hypotheical officer in my orignal post was not someone trying to escape their commitment, but someone trying to fulfull their commitment to the military while holding true to their own conscience.
I could not drop bombs on innocent people. I could however fly planes of relief supplies to those people.

That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Birdstrike]

I could not drop bombs on innocent people. I could however fly planes of relief supplies to those people.That is the point I was trying to make.

And it's not the pilot's job to determine who the "innocent people" are. Others are charged with that responsibility and it is a vital one. But it's the pilot's job to deliver the ordnance on time and on target. Period. That's the point we're trying to make.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Again with the Cheney stuff. He really scares you doesn't he? I really don't understand what you mean. Some of you guys on the left really get weird over the Rove/Cheney thing, almost obsessive compulsive type behavior. Really odd, with no basis in fact. But, I guess when you get your news from the Daily Kos you start to believe all the Cheney/Rove/Halliburton rhetoric.

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

 

[C-17 Driver]

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

OK, we get it. You don't like Cheney. Sing it to the world, buy a bumper sticker. There is no way that we can sway your mind and there is no way we can sway yours.

Agree to disagree and move on. I doubt our kids will every hang out together so you don't have to worry about us military folks putting bad ideas in their heads.

Everyone's trying to get the last word.

[picture of man beating a dead horse]

[\picture of man beating a dead horse]


Word

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

OK, we get it. You don't like Cheney. Sing it to the world, buy a bumper sticker. There is no way that we can sway your mind and there is no way we can sway yours.

Agree to disagree and move on. I doubt our kids will every hang out together so you don't have to worry about us military folks putting bad ideas in their heads.

Everyone's trying to get the last word.

[picture of man beating a dead horse]

[\picture of man beating a dead horse]


Word

Actually, I'm not against an attempt to be persuaded differently. Calling me a c*@knozzle, for example, is not persuasive though, its childish. Try facts, evidence, etc.

First, I don't have kids, second, if I did, I would allow them to decide for themselves, as my parents did. And I would even let them play with your kids. Actually, I'll bet you and I could have a beer together and have a good time, even.

 

[NewmanF16]

Think about what has happened in the last 6 years. We went from a relatively peaceful and stable world to being stuck in another Vietnam style war, with no reason, no objective, no definition of victory, and no exit strategy. That is not a reason I would join military.

I probably should keep my dog out of this likely pointless fight, but I have a hard time letting emotion and ad hominem attacks get in the way of logic. Nothing like a little Hollywood propaganda to prop up your argument. Peaceful and stable is a matter of perspective. I was deployed 6 months out of the year throughout the 90's, and it wasn't building schools.

1. "Vietnam style war"--There are really only three things about this war that make it "Vietnam" like. 1. We are militarily kicking the crap out of the enemy (even more so than Vietnam). 2.There is a opposition political movement in this country, driven by the media, who's motivation is to lose the war (the good of the country be damned) and that is keeping the enemy fighters motivated to continue fighting. 3. The "insurgency" is being supported by neighboring countries and we are not prosecuting them for their support because of #2 (although a large portion of the fighters and their leadership are NOT Iraqis, unlike Vietnam).

There are dozens of ways this war is completely unlike Vietnam.

2. "No Reason"--Rid the Middle East of a mad dictator with WMD. Don't pull the "lie" crap out, everyone from the UN to Saddam himself thought he had more WMD than he did (and he did--most is likely in Syria).

3. "No Objective"--You mean besides establish a democratically elected stable government, that will not threaten it's neighbors? The hidden objective here is for Iraq to serve as a platform for spreading democracy through the Middle East. Prior to the Bathe party, Iraq was a democratic nation, and the most highly educated people in the ME. The problem with instability in the region is the lack of vibrant economies--unemployment and undereducation lead make the populace susceptible to radicalism. A further sub-objective is to anchor the fight in the middle east, and not here. Don't think it can't happen, you're fooling yourself. I'd much rather be killing them over there than here. This is working quite well, BTW.

4. "No definition of victory"--That would be meeting the objective, which you obviously didn't know, i.e. a stable Iraqi government that can survive without our direct (i.e. military) support.

5. "no exit strategy"--Do you mean no loser strategy? We exit when we achieve victory, and not one minute before. If you are not committed to that, you have no business going in in the first place. That is what torques me about politicians that voted FOR this when it benefited them, and are now looking for ways out. If the enemy smells weakness (and our press and dems reek of it everyday), they will stick it out. If they smelled our commitment, they would know it was lost and have gone home by now.

6. "That is not a reason I would join military"--Hmm, would there be a reason for you? Joining means self sacrifice and commitment...

 

[NewmanF16]

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

How about specific examples, supported by facts? And seeing as how you are saying pathological, I'd like to see a pattern, and not just one.

It is easy and cheap to make ad hominem attacks, a little harder to support them with logic.