Conscientious Objector

[highsky]

"To be a man, you must first learn to obey."
-- Robert E. Lee while head of Washington University (later Washington and Lee University) after the War Between the States.

Good quote. Good post.

 

[highsky]

In WWII the bomber pilots were told.... 'you are going to be baby killers'..... at least they weren't American babies....right!

Right after 9/11 the press was going nuts over the military flying CAP over US cities.. they [the press] loved it. And it seemed the PR officers for these squadrons were right out of press school.... I like the fighter jock interviewed as he preflighted his jet..... "I wouldn't like it...but yeah, I'd shoot down a US airliner". Sh!t hot dude! only four more to go!

Then there was the tanker pilot who said flying airliners.... "pretty much bus driver kind of stuff. You take off, you land, it's all automated." As for tankers, "you won't get this kind of fun flying anywhere else."




It's black and white baby! Clear cut decisions with no grey! Rock on!

Real fukcing funny.

Tool.

 

[highsky]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

Dude, there are men with much greater strength of character and balls than you who didn't make the cut in their dream to fly in a military cockpit. What makes you think YOU had a choice to make anyway?

If you can't drop a nuke and instantly kill 10 million without hesitation when the order is given, you have no business wearing your country's uniform. These are the kind of men you need, want, and must have. Serving is a serious responsibility and privelege that simple minds like you will never be able to grasp.

Sleep well, while the rest of step up to the plate to protect you.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wow Rez - I used to be mildly amused by your antics on the military board and our bickering back and forth. Whatever right, it was all fun and games. This BS is an all time low. This confirms I've got absolutely nothing for you dude. I did more months of Noble Eagle than I know what to do with. 5 to 6 hour vuls over DC, Camp David, etc...protecting the POTUS and our capitol. Do you think I enjoyed taking off with live missles and loaded gun? Are you f'in kidding me man? The thought of shooting down innocent people on airliner makes anyone's gut sick and it's something I never thought I'd be tasked to do when I signed the dotted line. However, if it saved thousands of other lives, then you're damn right - I'm going to do exactly what I'm told to do by our leadership. That's a decision that you'll never deal with.

What in the hell is your deal with military pilots anyway? Did you get burned in the past? Your above post not only ruined your credibility in my book, but I'll garauntee you it ruined your credibility in many other military flyer's books as well. Very poor taste and poor form man...

So if one doesn't think like you then they have no value?

If a MIL officer at some point in a 20 year career decides that s/he is a Conscientous (sp) objector then you lose respect for that person?

I never said anyhting about you! I was recalling the poorly planned fighter pilot and tanker pilot who spkke to the press. Is anyone faliable in your ranks?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is why you're not in the military. I'd rather a "fighter jock" shoot down an airliner and not like it than allow that airliner to crash into the Twin Towers. 200 dead civilians rather than 2000. Don't think for one second that "fighter jock" wouldn't lose sleep at night or question his decision in the years that would follow. He certainly wouldn't be thinking "four more to go." Not surprising that someone completely ignorant of the military would spout such drivel, though. Didn't you say your father was a Navy pilot or something? Where did this contempt for military pilots come from? Stick to ALPA, Rez. You're not very good as a military analyst.

Wrong analysis....

The issue isn't shooting down a civ airliner.... the issue is going on camera and saying you'd do it... even if you don't want to do it...

The issue isn't the job, its the self concieting, peacock feather display that turns people off.....

Hey man.... when a tactical guy gets in a jet to defend the USA I want him to think he is the best in world. I think Scrapdog is probably the best. Magnum too... and I support these guys...

But leave the attitude and arrogance at the squadron. Don't bring it to the airline and the message boards....

If you want hero worship then get a static display gig at an airshow and all the Civvies can come by and say ohh and ahh... and ask for your autograph....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Were they told this before or after learning that the life expectancy of a bomber pilot in Europe was well below 25 missions and that a large percentage of them would be buried in the European countryside at 200mph?

Below 25 missions... that bombing over Europe was brutal.... but a German baby dead is better than an American?

I was refering to the fire bombs and atom bombs over Japan when we had air supremcy there....

My point? It is all brutal and horrific. Why even try and quantify it?

Did you ever think that some of those pilots have friends that fly for the airlines? Did you ever think that the fighter jock you so easily scoff at might have to shoot down an airliner with a good friend on board, then go an explain to his friends widow and kids what he did?


Biff

Yeah I did think that fighter jock might have to shoot a friend down... that is why I thought it was in poor taste and hit a low bar to get on national news and say you'd do it....even if it wasn't liked....or detested..

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

That is deep..... I feel so......righteous with that one liner.....

Rough men are ready to do violence cause they don't have any other skill set to solve the problem. Might doesn't make right...

Yeah I sleep peacefully in my bed as I wait for the other shoe to drop as we have succeeded in pissing off the entire world for the past 50 years. Does that mean I want to negotiate with terrorist? Of course not, but it also means that I am willing to look at our Foreign policy and make changes so we don't have to drop bombs...

 

[Draginass]

Yeah I sleep peacefully in my bed as I wait for the other shoe to drop as we have succeeded in pissing off the entire world for the past 50 years. Does that mean I want to negotiate with terrorist? Of course not, but it also means that I am willing to look at our Foreign policy and make changes so we don't have to drop bombs...

What you fail to understand or, more likely, don't want to understand, is that force is the ultimate guarantor of your freedom. After all the talk, all the reasoning, all the concessions, and all the B.S., it will likely come down to force. Weakness and lack of will invites those who will do you harm. Anyone who doesn't know this is in fatally deep denial.

 

[jstars135]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

Sounds like, in simple words, that you are a self-centered *************************. You might want to check into that.

 

[jstars135]

Sounds like, in simple words, that you are a self-centered *************************. You might want to check into that.

That's cool. This board has auto-censor. I typed a word that's a synonym for a cat that begins with P and got the asterisks.

 

[highsky]

but a German baby dead is better than an American?

Hello? In the context of WWII, ABSOLUTELY!

I was refering to the fire bombs and atom bombs over Japan when we had air supremcy there....

Those fire bombs in Germany and Japan, and the atomic ordnance saved hundreds of thousands of American GIs lives. AND they saved hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese lives.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Yeah I did think that fighter jock might have to shoot a friend down... that is why I thought it was in poor taste and hit a low bar to get on national news and say you'd do it....even if it wasn't liked....or detested..

So what if he said it? Is the American public not supposed to be fully informed of our national defense posture and the realities involved in its execution? Grow a pair, dude. War isn't pretty, and freedom isn't free. If you want to live in a smurf-like cocoon of Utopia, move to New Zealand.

Rough men are ready to do violence cause they don't have any other skill set to solve the problem. Might doesn't make right...

Geez...you really are an ignorant tool.

Most military pilots with whom I've had the privelege to serve are men of character and skill you will never even dream of having.

Yeah I sleep peacefully in my bed as I wait for the other shoe to drop as we have succeeded in pissing off the entire world for the past 50 years.

Dear liberal village boob:

Please leave the United States. France has plenty of room for you.

I am willing to look at our Foreign policy and make changes so we don't have to drop bombs...

We've tried that and continue to do so, inasmuch as possible with the stooges and fools that inhabit most of the rest of the world.

Do you think those crazy Muslims or the North Koreans give a rat's ass what we have to say? Geez, we can hardly get the Russians, Germans, and French to play ball with us, and they're intelligent, rational people!

And what the fukc do YOU know about foreign policy? I think the President and Condoleeza Rice can manage just fine without your expertise. Have you ever seen her resume? Go online and check it out.

Fool.

 

[Draginass]

I wonder if Mr. Rez was being held and tortured by islamofacist-terrorists, whether he would refuse to get on the helo after some of those "rough men with no skill sets" saved his worthless self-rightous hide.

It's very entertaining to present rationality to those who can't think rationally and critically.

Highsky - I'd like to correct one thing you said . . actually there is only one North Korean that is allowed to think and that's the "dear leader" . . the frizzy-haired androgen that lives in luxury, builds nuclear weapons, and likes cowboy movies and hookers while his serfs eat grass and starve to death.

 

[pilotyip]

Very lucky people

You know all live pretty good lives compared to our ancestors and the rest of the world. We have no idea of what our lives might be like today if the actions of the last 60 years had not taken place. Would Korea be one of the top ecomonic powers in the world without our involvement in Korea? As bad as Vietnam was, we have no idea what the world would be like without Vietnam. The commies wanted us to live like the E. Germans in 1970. How many would like to live in E. Germany in 1970? We prevailed over the Communist form of Gov't and the world is a better place. Poverty is down world wide, the standard of living is up throughout the world due to the victory of the forces of freedom. We are all truly lucky. BTW we had won the Vietnam war in 1973, but congress elected to default and move it to the loose column in 1974 by sending a public meesage to the NNA that we would not interveen with any actions they elected to take. Read Wes Mc Donald in "Alpha Strike" Great book.

 

[highsky]

I wonder if Mr. Rez was being held and tortured by islamofacist-terrorists, whether he would refuse to get on the helo after some of those "rough men with no skill sets" saved his worthless self-rightous hide.

This guy is probably one of those doves who we sometimes see who actually travels over to the war zone to spew his treasonous horse$hit about how wrong the American government is.

Then, when he gets kidnapped by the islamo-facists and held in front of a camera with a knife against his throat, he screams like a school girl for the "rough men with no skill sets" to risk their lives to rescue his worthless ass.

It's very entertaining to present rationality to those who can't think rationally and critically.

It's a complete waste of time. It's like trying to reason with my off-the-charts liberal brother. He actually worked in the John Kerry campaign headquarters in DC (oh, the family shame)! I can't believe he came from the same loins of my mother as I. There must have been a mix-up at the hospital nursery.

Highsky - I'd like to correct one thing you said . . actually there is only one North Korean that is allowed to think and that's the "dear leader" . . the frizzy-haired androgen that lives in luxury, builds nuclear weapons, and likes cowboy movies and hookers while his serfs eat grass and starve to death.

Well said!

 

[Deuce130]

Wrong analysis....

The issue isn't shooting down a civ airliner.... the issue is going on camera and saying you'd do it... even if you don't want to do it...

The issue isn't the job, its the self concieting, peacock feather display that turns people off.....

Hey man.... when a tactical guy gets in a jet to defend the USA I want him to think he is the best in world. I think Scrapdog is probably the best. Magnum too... and I support these guys...

But leave the attitude and arrogance at the squadron. Don't bring it to the airline and the message boards....

If you want hero worship then get a static display gig at an airshow and all the Civvies can come by and say ohh and ahh... and ask for your autograph....

Nice backpedal. Nothing in your priginal post even remotely hinted that you respected or appreciated that guy's willingness to do his job. Instead, you make sarcastic comments and ridiculous statements about becoming an Ace by shooting down airliners. And simply because I objected to your blatant disrespect and bashing of military pilots means I expect to be worshipped? Pretty big swing there. How about YOU leave the arrogance and conceit for the ALPA meeting rooms and leave it off the message boards. Your post was as arrogant as it comes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What you fail to understand or, more likely, don't want to understand, is that force is the ultimate guarantor of your freedom. After all the talk, all the reasoning, all the concessions, and all the B.S., it will likely come down to force. Weakness and lack of will invites those who will do you harm. Anyone who doesn't know this is in fatally deep denial.

I forecasted this repsonse...

as long as you have this mindset... the reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions are just facades. Why fool around... let's go right to guns...

N Korea... Iran.... forget talks... let's start war. True?

 

[BiffF15]

Below 25 missions... that bombing over Europe was brutal.... but a German baby dead is better than an American?

I was refering to the fire bombs and atom bombs over Japan when we had air supremcy there....

My point? It is all brutal and horrific. Why even try and quantify it?



Yeah I did think that fighter jock might have to shoot a friend down... that is why I thought it was in poor taste and hit a low bar to get on national news and say you'd do it....even if it wasn't liked....or detested..



That is deep..... I feel so......righteous with that one liner.....

Rough men are ready to do violence cause they don't have any other skill set to solve the problem. Might doesn't make right...

Yeah I sleep peacefully in my bed as I wait for the other shoe to drop as we have succeeded in pissing off the entire world for the past 50 years. Does that mean I want to negotiate with terrorist? Of course not, but it also means that I am willing to look at our Foreign policy and make changes so we don't have to drop bombs...

Rez,
Let me ask this in a much simpler format.
Q: Would you rather your kid be dead or someone elses?
A: It's obvious.

Q: We had air superiority over Japan in WW2?
A: Nope. There were only a few fighters with the legs to get their at the end of the war. The B-29's flew at night to save their skin (low altitude puts you in the heart of the AAA and makes the fighter intercept cake). High altitude daytime stuff puts you in the cons but makes it much more difficult for the intercept as the plane could barely make it to bomber altitude before the bombs were away due to the limited amount of notice they had.

Q: When a fighter pilot is sitting Homeland Defense Alert in the post 911 world and he is asked if he will obey orders and shoot down an airliner what the f--k do you expect him to say?
A: No, I'm a conscientious objector and I really appreciate Uncle Sammy letting me fly this here little fighter jet but now that I'm expected to perform I can't do it? Oh by the way which airlines are hiring?

Q: Rez, have you ever flown a fighter over bad guy land, watched tracers coming up, wondering what you can't see that's zinging around? Have you ever pulled your friends from the rubble of a terrorist bombing? Have you ever had a friendship that you would give your life for? How about 25 of them at once?
A: No.

It's nice to sit from afar and throw spears at those who do what you don't.

Q: How do you know you have a fighter pilot at your party?
A: He will tell you.

Do you wonder why that is? Probably because he was 23 or 24 years old when he accomplished a life long goal of becoming a fighter pilot. Probably because he overcame some serious competition to get to that seat, then made it through the haze that is a Formal Training Course in fighters. Of course he is a bit full of himself because he challenged himself big time and was able to step up to the plate. And it doesn't stop the day he gets to the squadron, it just goes up another couple of notches and continues to do so on a regular basis until he dies, retires, or goes to fly a lesser jet. Also, do you want someone flying a 40 million dollar jet, by themselves, into combat, with advanced teamwork / tactics that doesn't believe in themselves? There should be no such thing as a fighter pilot that doesn't believe in themselves or their jet. If they don't believe they are a danger.

Q: Do we really piss off other nations with our foreign policy?
A: No, we disappoint them because we don't give them more. Il Jung wants to blackmail us into giving him food. That maniac over in Iran rattles his sword so the price of oil goes up and he makes another billion dollars to subsidize his political base (sounds like he learned that trick from one of our political parties...).

Q: How many nations do what we do in the arena of international support?
A: None.

Of course we will piss off the political leadership of other countries because we do for the masses and not for them in particular.

I agree, nice back peddle on the last couple of replies. You are a flamer about half the time, and other half... Well, it's obvious to everyone else.

FYI: Men and Women of high moral character hang out in here. They have or currently are serving, not working, but serving our country. When you enter places like this do so with honesty, and if you screw up and write a bunch of crap from a narrow perspective apologize and move on.

Back pedaling, no I didn't mean that, you misunderstood, no really, I'm a good guy doesn't cut it.

Did you use the same crappy lawyer Vick did for your diatribe?

Biff

 

[BiffF15]

I forecasted this repsonse...

as long as you have this mindset... the reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions are just facades. Why fool around... let's go right to guns...

N Korea... Iran.... forget talks... let's start war. True?

Okay, here we go again.

Q: Why is North Korea pissed at us?
A: Because we had a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Agreement with them (signed I believe by B. Clinton) and they didn't keep their end of the bargin.
Q: Iran is pissed why?
A: Because it's in the best interest of the radical leadership to have it that way.

When a person or people want something from you, and they are of fairly good morale character they will ask for things, and you will in turn negotiate in good faith. What type of person threatens with NUCLEAR weapons? Hmmh...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Hello? In the context of WWII, ABSOLUTELY!

Ok... then how about a Jap-American Baby. Kill it before a "white" american.....???

Those fire bombs in Germany and Japan, and the atomic ordnance saved hundreds of thousands of American GIs lives. AND they saved hundreds of thousands of German and Japanese lives.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

That is not my point. Stick with the discussion....

I agree it saved American and Japanese lives... but it is still killing....and I don't care to rationalize it.... The reason all those civilian Japanese and Germans died is their inability to control thier gov't.

So what if he said it?

What is the point? What is to be gained?

Is the American public not supposed to be fully informed of our national defense posture and the realities involved in its execution?

Are you serious?

Grow a pair, dude. War isn't pretty, and freedom isn't free. If you want to live in a smurf-like cocoon of Utopia, move to New Zealand.

What is wrong with NZ. Does everything have to be all American to be good and righteous?

I know war isn't pretty, I agree... I just don't see the point in glorifying it on the National News..

Geez...you really are an ignorant tool.

If you believe I am then I am...

Most military pilots with whom I've had the privelege to serve are men of character and skill you will never even dream of having.

I agree...

Dear liberal village boob:

Please leave the United States. France has plenty of room for you.

So if I don't think like you, I should leave?

We've tried that and continue to do so, inasmuch as possible with the stooges and fools that inhabit most of the rest of the world.

The rest of the world is not stooges and fools... if that is your opening line then I think you should go right to guns...

Do you think those crazy Muslims or the North Koreans give a rat's ass what we have to say? Geez, we can hardly get the Russians, Germans, and French to play ball with us, and they're intelligent, rational people!

And why is that? Why can't we get them to play ball with us... cause its all them? No improvememnt on our side?

And what the fukc do YOU know about foreign policy?

The profanity is'nt helping your arguement..

I think the President and Condoleeza Rice can manage just fine without your expertise.

Do you mean W or Cheney?

Have you ever seen her resume? Go online and check it out.

She is an expert on the old soviet system... I am not saying she doesn't know what she is doing, but I don't think she is as prevelent as you think...

Fool.

Your vocabulary... not mine..

 

[highsky]

What you fail to understand or, more likely, don't want to understand, is that force is the ultimate guarantor of your freedom. After all the talk, all the reasoning, all the concessions, and all the B.S., it will likely come down to force. Weakness and lack of will invites those who will do you harm. Anyone who doesn't know this is in fatally deep denial.

Well said, Sir.

I forecasted this repsonse...

as long as you have this mindset... the reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions are just facades. Why fool around... let's go right to guns...

N Korea... Iran.... forget talks... let's start war. True?

That's something for our elected President to decide.

As far as I'm concerned, hell yes. Let's quit fukcing around and wasting time. We all know where this is headed anyway.

Let's take care of the problem now, instead of in five years when they are full-on WMD capable and the situation is much more desperate.

You really think Iran will give a flying fukc about our diplomacy when they have a nuke? Don't think so. It's the ultimate fukc you card, and they will have no problems playing it. Oh, and by the way...they control about a third of the world's oil...you know, that thick black stuff we all need to survive. With this, those maniacs have the entire world by the balls. Do you trust them with that kind of leverage? If you do, you're a bigger fool than I already believe.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
Let me ask this in a much simpler format.
Q: Would you rather your kid be dead or someone elses?
A: It's obvious.

Is it one or the other? Can there be a third choice?

Q: We had air superiority over Japan in WW2?
A: Nope. There were only a few fighters with the legs to get their at the end of the war. The B-29's flew at night to save their skin (low altitude puts you in the heart of the AAA and makes the fighter intercept cake). High altitude daytime stuff puts you in the cons but makes it much more difficult for the intercept as the plane could barely make it to bomber altitude before the bombs were away due to the limited amount of notice they had.

Japanese air defense in terms of night-fighters and anti-aircraft guns was so feeble it was hardly a risk.

As early as May of 1942, as Sekigawa noted, three events portend the decline of Japanese air power.

​

Q: When a fighter pilot is sitting Homeland Defense Alert in the post 911 world and he is asked if he will obey orders and shoot down an airliner what the f--k do you expect him to say?
A: No, I'm a conscientious objector and I really appreciate Uncle Sammy letting me fly this here little fighter jet but now that I'm expected to perform I can't do it? Oh by the way which airlines are hiring?

Why does he have to say it on national news? What is he trying to gain by doing so?

Q: Rez, have you ever flown a fighter over bad guy land, watched tracers coming up, wondering what you can't see that's zinging around? Have you ever pulled your friends from the rubble of a terrorist bombing? Have you ever had a friendship that you would give your life for? How about 25 of them at once?
A: No.

You have no idea what I done or haven't. But it is irrelevant. The issue is why does a pilot on national TV have to say he'd shoot down a US airliner. This is the question and debate. Not military service...

It's nice to sit from afar and throw spears at those who do what you don't.

Why are you so offended?

Q: How do you know you have a fighter pilot at your party?
A: He will tell you.

No, the joke goes... enough about flying lets talk about me...

Do you wonder why that is? Probably because he was 23 or 24 years old when he accomplished a life long goal of becoming a fighter pilot. Probably because he overcame some serious competition to get to that seat, then made it through the haze that is a Formal Training Course in fighters. Of course he is a bit full of himself because he challenged himself big time and was able to step up to the plate. And it doesn't stop the day he gets to the squadron, it just goes up another couple of notches and continues to do so on a regular basis until he dies, retires, or goes to fly a lesser jet. Also, do you want someone flying a 40 million dollar jet, by themselves, into combat, with advanced teamwork / tactics that doesn't believe in themselves? There should be no such thing as a fighter pilot that doesn't believe in themselves or their jet. If they don't believe they are a danger.

Again. I agree with all of this.. Good stuff. The question... why does a guy have to get on national news and say he'd shoot down a civilian airliner..

Q: Do we really piss off other nations with our foreign policy?
A: No, we disappoint them because we don't give them more. Il Jung wants to blackmail us into giving him food. That maniac over in Iran rattles his sword so the price of oil goes up and he makes another billion dollars to subsidize his political base (sounds like he learned that trick from one of our political parties...).

This is a bit simple don't you think?

Q: How many nations do what we do in the arena of international support?
A: None.

ok.

Of course we will piss off the political leadership of other countries because we do for the masses and not for them in particular.

Can you provide examples?

I agree, nice back peddle on the last couple of replies. You are a flamer about half the time, and other half... Well, it's obvious to everyone else.

But yet you are spending allot of time replying...

FYI: Men and Women of high moral character hang out in here. They have or currently are serving, not working, but serving our country. When you enter places like this do so with honesty, and if you screw up and write a bunch of crap from a narrow perspective apologize and move on.

So I don't see things your way and agree with you then I must apologize. I thought you defend free of speech and democracy...

Back pedaling, no I didn't mean that, you misunderstood, no really, I'm a good guy doesn't cut it.

Are people who choose not to fight in the MIL less than people who do?

Did you use the same crappy lawyer Vick did for your diatribe?

What does that mean?