Conscientious Objector

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I'm so done debating dou(hebags like you.

Frankly, it's quite disturbing that people like you fly airplanes profesionally.

Very intelligent, mature response. It scares me that you are allowed to play with guns.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From the outset, the Japanese systematically murdered prisoners of war and civilians. The committed genocide against the Chinese. They used captive populations in gruesome medical experiments. Their soldiers, like the enemy we face now, feined surrender, and took advantage of other Geneva Convention rules to get close enough to our forces to inflict harm. The Japanese, through their own actions, brought upon themselves the fury that befell them.

Agreed. It has been said that the IJA was more Nazi than the Nazi's.

If the US had lost the war, the wholesale murder that would have resulted from the Japanese high command would have made the Holocaust look mild. General Lemay was a tough guy with a tough job and he saved hundreds of thousands of America lives fighting an enemy with no regards to human life, not even their own. Sound familiar??

Agreed. However, LeMay knew that the fire bombing of Tokyo and killing of thousands of Japanese Civilians: women, children and babies, was necessary but brutal. There was no glory. The winners of war get to run the war crime tribunals.

Reading the book (Flyboys) I was quite disturbed by the action of the US Army. I thought my country didn't behave this way.... but we can know impropriety (sp) when we see it and can correct and do better...

Having George HW Bush in the book, as a WWII pilot and a post President, was interesting too....

 

[Draginass]

I don't know this book Flyboys so I don't know what the premise was, but a slick journalists and writers can take an event and twist it via omissions in information, distortion, tortured logic, etc. to lead a reader who lacks critical thinking skills into a particular conclusion. This is the modus operandi of many current writers.

In the case of Tokyo, war industries are legitimate targets. An enemy, like the Japanese that intersperses it's war industry into many many small facilities in a large urban area is trying to use the population as a shield. Sort of like the NVA did by placing anti-aircraft guns on the tops of hospitals. Or how the islamo-terrorists use ambulances as bombs or for the transport of fighters. They use our own sense of humanity against us. They think us weak and decadent for thinking the way we do. The Japanese conducted a show trial and executed captured airmen from the Doolittle Raid. This was in clear violation of the Geneva Convention. However, as we know, the Japanese cared little for the laws of armed conflict, except how they could use our own sense of humanity against us.

By all rights, these terrorists have zero protection under the laws of armed conflict.

These are the types of enemies we face. I am actually awestruck at the restraint that the United States has shown against such evil, both during and after wars.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't know this book Flyboys so I don't know what the premise was, but a slick journalists and writers can take an event and twist it via omissions in information, distortion, tortured logic, etc. to lead a reader who lacks critical thinking skills into a particular conclusion. This is the modus operandi of many current writers.

You can read the reviews at amazon.com Many people spoke highly of it... and many people don't like the way it portrays America.

I see it as an objective view. GHWB thought the book was good enough to be apart of it, in the early 2000's.

A book review excerpt....

Bradley's account is objective, covering brutality on both sides of the war, including orders from the top down to kill Japanese soldiers rather than take them prisoner, or blanket bomb residential areas to inflict maximum casualties. War brings out inhumanity, and this historical account is an important reminder of the need for vigilance about the morality of any leader's orders, especially in wartime. Flyboys is not a book for the faint-hearted but is highly recommended to those interested in what can be learned from history.

In the case of Tokyo, war industries are legitimate targets. An enemy, like the Japanese that intersperses it's war industry into many many small facilities in a large urban area is trying to use the population as a shield. Sort of like the NVA did by placing anti-aircraft guns on the tops of hospitals. Or how the islamo-terrorists use ambulances as bombs or for the transport of fighters. They use our own sense of humanity against us. They think us weak and decadent for thinking the way we do.

Agreed. Even Yammoto was objective enough.... He stated after PH that we (the Japanese) have 'awoken a sleeping Giant' and he also believed Tokyo would burn with its paper and wood houses intermixed with industry.

A very heroic story of course is Doolittles Raid. Amazing what those guys did. The Hornet was spotted by a Japanese fishing boat and destroyed but feared that the Hornet's position would be reported. Doolittle and his men launched early knowing it was suicide mission for they wouldn't have the range to make China. The crews were told to bomb any military target except the Imperial Palace. I have an orginal copy of "30 Seconds over Tokyo"

By all rights, these terrorists have zero protection under the laws of armed conflict.

all right...

These are the types of enemies we face. I am actually awestruck at the restraint that the United States has shown against such evil, both during and after wars.

Each side thinks each one is evil and uses immoral methods. Each side thinks they are right.

Just because one understands what motivates his enemy doesn't mean he sympathizes with his emeny.

I understand why middle eastern men are pissed off and go radical.... that doesn't mean I support them or thier violence.

 

[JimNtexas]

Again... I agree. We all knew that fighter guys flying CAP would should down an airliner if needed. We all know he'd follow orders and he wouldn't like it. So why do we need a fighter pilot in full gear doing a pre-flight telling us what we already know? This guy was a foot solider not General or high up politican.

What I'm sure happened is that the media asked the Air Force public affairs office to interview a pilot. The Air Force decided that it would allow the interview. A request was passed down the chain of command to find a presentable volunteer pilot to do the interview. A volunteer was found and the interview conducted.

Now let's image what would have happened had the Air Force refused to allow an interview with a working pilot and instead just provided a general in an office to the media.

The original poster would no doubt have still have started this thread. He would have posted the following:

"Again... I agree. We all knew that fighter guys flying CAP would should down an airliner if needed. Why can't the Air Force provide at least one actual working pilot to discuss this mission with the public? Why did the Air Force just provide a General in an office to answer the questions? What are they hiding? Surely there is at least one pilot who would honestly discuss this mission with the public!"

 

[McGillicutty]

This message is hidden because Rez O. Lewshun is on your ignore list.

Good call! Done.

 

[Draginass]

You guys are right. He's hopeless. Chalk him up as another "useful fool."

Ignore activated.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

You guys are right. He's hopeless. Chalk him up as another "useful fool."

Ignore activated.

What a bunch of pathetic, close-minded people. You don't like a different opinion than yours, so you stick your fingers in your ears, and go "LALALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Sad. Very sad.

 

[Deuce130]

What a bunch of pathetic, close-minded people. You don't like a different opinion than yours, so you stick your fingers in your ears, and go "LALALALALA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" Sad. Very sad.

Rez started an intentional flame war on this thread. It's got nothing to do with differing opinions or policy discussions. He threw out an intentional insult, stirred up the pot, and is now trying to change the argument because he got slammed. You are ignoring that fact and simply trying to change the argument as well with your insults. You both are acting like you're 12 and intentionally misconstruing this whole thread. I DON'T like your opinion. I find most of your opinons pathetic and abhorrent. That doesn't make me close minded. It means I can think for myself. By your reasoning, you would also be pathetic and close-minded. So shut your co*k holster and go away. Hippie. We'll see how sad you think everything is when "they" come for you and yours and you're looking around with a confused look on your face wondering why noone's doing something about it.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Rez started an intentional flame war on this thread. It's got nothing to do with differing opinions or policy discussions. He threw out an intentional insult, stirred up the pot, and is now trying to change the argument because he got slammed. You are ignoring that fact and simply trying to change the argument as well with your insults. You both are acting like you're 12 and intentionally misconstruing this whole thread. I DON'T like your opinion. I find most of your opinons pathetic and abhorrent. That doesn't make me close minded. It means I can think for myself. By your reasoning, you would also be pathetic and close-minded. So shut your co*k holster and go away. Hippie. We'll see how sad you think everything is when "they" come for you and yours and you're looking around with a confused look on your face wondering why noone's doing something about it.

Point proven. Typical Dick Cheney type response. I'm not close-minded at all. The people putting Rez on "ignore" are the close-minded ones. I happen to disagree with Rez about some of this, I'm just very disappointed by the reaction of some of those who are "fighting for the very freedoms Rez is exercising". The irony/hypocrisy is astonishing.

 

[bagasticks]

I dont know if you fly fast or live slow. . . but i do know you are slow. . . .

The name of this forum is military. . therefore, probably safe to assume that most of us support the military and it's leadership. I wont ignore Rez. he normally has great input (whether I always agree with it is another story)

Its also fairly safe to assume that most of the folks on this board are reasonably conservative, patriotic Americans who love this country more than you could ever hope to love anything (and they prove it daily). So when you come on here bad mouthing our government, foreign policy, military integrity etc. .(which love or hate has made America the best place on earth to live) your gonna get your peter smacked. Dont act surprised and call us narrow minded or whatever. . . If invertebrates like you wrote our foreign policy we would all be islamic-neonazi-japanese women.

In short. . .if your gonna hit the pinata, you better make sure you know whats in it. .

 

[Deuce130]

Point proven. Typical Dick Cheney type response.

What does that mean? Something to do with the standard "Karl Rove," "Dick Cheney" boogeyman answers given by so many liberals? Don't like something? Blame Rove. Or Cheney. Doesn't matter what it is, if it's true, or if either guy could possibly be to blame for it, just throw those names out there and everyone should nod their heads knowingly and mutter agreements. Sophomoric.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

So shut your co*k holster and go away. Hippie.

After this, you have the nerve to call anyone other than yourself sophomoric. Again, the hypocrisy is astonishing.

 

[McGillicutty]

Typical Dick Cheney type response.

Typical Jane Fonda response. Go argue with DaveGriffin.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I dont know if you fly fast or live slow. . . but i do know you are slow. . . .

Yes, right, I'm different than you, therefore slow. Whatever.

The name of this forum is military. . therefore, probably safe to assume that most of us support the military and it's leadership. I wont ignore Rez. he normally has great input (whether I always agree with it is another story)

Fair enough.

Its also fairly safe to assume that most of the folks on this board are reasonably conservative, patriotic Americans who love this country more than you could ever hope to love anything (and they prove it daily). So when you come on here bad mouthing our government, foreign policy, military integrity etc. .(which love or hate has made America the best place on earth to live) your gonna get your peter smacked. Dont act surprised and call us narrow minded or whatever. . . If invertebrates like you wrote our foreign policy we would all be islamic-neonazi-japanese women.

It's funny. You start out with a reasonable thought, then at the end turn to the normal neo-con, get W. re-elected, liberals hate America, etc., etc. Had you left the last sentence off, it would have been a good response.

In short. . .if your gonna hit the pinata, you better make sure you know whats in it. .

Also a fair statement. And I have no beef with you or your opinions. I have a problem with the people who choose the ignore Rez, simply because they don't like what he has to say.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Typical Jane Fonda response. Go argue with DaveGriffin.

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[Scrapdog]

I wasn't talking to you.

Hey c*cknozzle, this is a forum, therefore when you post you're essentially talking to everyone.

And I can garauntee you, everyone in the military posting on this board was not talking to you either.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Hey c*cknozzle.....

What is this, a playground? Grow up.

 

[highsky]

What is this, a playground? Grow up.

I have a better idea: How about you remove your head from your rectum. It's obvious from your ignorant avatar that you don't have the foggiest fukcing idea what threats our nation faces or the realities of the geo-political and theological positions that our enemies have taken.

Have you ever worn your country's uniform? Didn't think so.

Have you ever attended a classified military intelligence briefing? Didn't think so.

Have you ever stepped foot in a war zone and been the target of enemy fire? Didn't think so.

I'm a six year combat veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq. I have over 350 combat hours in Iraq, and have been shot at more times than I can count. I've attended thousands of intelligence briefings. Most military officers on here can say the same. And you know what? Although I fully understand the threats and our national objective, and I support our leadership and the national mission, I don't have a clue how to form foreign policy. I couldn't even scratch the surface. Furthermore, that's not my job, OR YOURS. Who the fukc are YOU to spew your treasonous non-sense in a public forum, especially during a time of war? What the hell makes YOU an expert?

How about you continue to sit on your ignorant self-righteous ass, riding your tricycle, and let the big boys make the sacrifice doing the dirty work defending you. Just do us all, and your country, a huge favor and keep the cake hole shut with the self-defeating talk. How about a nice cup of shut the fukc up. We're trying to win a war here. The ONLY people you're aiding is our enemies.

You may as well be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the enemy in Iraq with a megaphone shouting at the U.S. troops that they're all losers and need to surrender. It has the EXACT same effect.

Tool.

Don't be such a pu$$y. Our enemies are listening, and they're getting a hard-on.

 

[Hobit]

Sorry Nancy, I know talking with real men assuages your guilt and distaste at your 'Walter Mitty' life but you are nothing more than a flame baiter.

Therefore, Like you girlfriend 'Rez':

This message is hidden because FlyFastLiveSlow is on your ignore list.

ahhhh....no more grey noise...

Tell the Commo geeks that the 'MIJI' is no longer a problem

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I have a better idea: How about you remove your head from your rectum. It's obvious from your ignorant avatar that you don't have the foggiest fukcing idea what threats our nation faces or the realities of the geo-political and theological positions that our enemies have taken.

Have you ever worn your country's uniform? Didn't think so.

Have you ever attended a classified military intelligence briefing? Didn't think so.

Have you ever stepped foot in a war zone and been the target of enemy fire? Didn't think so.

I'm a six year combat veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq. I have over 350 combat hours in Iraq, and have been shot at more times than I can count. I've attended thousands of intelligence briefings. Most military officers on here can say the same. And you know what? Although I fully understand the threats and our national objective, and I support our leadership and the national mission, I don't have a clue how to form foreign policy. I couldn't even scratch the surface. Furthermore, that's not my job, OR YOURS. Who the fukc are YOU to spew your treasonous non-sense in a public forum, especially during a time of war? What the hell makes YOU an expert?

How about you continue to sit on your ignorant self-righteous ass, riding your tricycle, and let the big boys make the sacrifice doing the dirty work defending you. Just do us all, and your country, a huge favor and keep the cake hole shut with the self-defeating talk. How about a nice cup of shut the fukc up. We're trying to win a war here. The ONLY people you're aiding is our enemies.

You may as well be standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the enemy in Iraq with a megaphone shouting at the U.S. troops that they're all losers and need to surrender. It has the EXACT same effect.

Tool.

Don't be such a pu$$y. Our enemies are listening, and they're getting a hard-on.

Thanks for your service. I appreciate it. :beer:

On a side note, I see your brainwashing has been completed. Thanks for the response, although I'm surprised you could get your head out of Cheney's ass long enough to type all that.

 

[Deuce130]

Thanks for your service. I appreciate it. :beer:

On a side note, I see your brainwashing has been completed. Thanks for the response, although I'm surprised you could get your head out of Cheney's ass long enough to type all that.

Again with the Cheney stuff. He really scares you doesn't he? I really don't understand what you mean. Some of you guys on the left really get weird over the Rove/Cheney thing, almost obsessive compulsive type behavior. Really odd, with no basis in fact. But, I guess when you get your news from the Daily Kos you start to believe all the Cheney/Rove/Halliburton rhetoric.

 

[Birdstrike]

I forecasted this repsonse...

as long as you have this mindset... that reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions are just facades. Why fool around... let's go right to guns...

N Korea... Iran.... forget talks... let's start war. True?

To Rez, et al;

My two cents; I think you guys are raising some legitimate questions but you're taking your frustrations on the civilian leadership out on the wrong guys. The military isn't into policy, that's not our charter; we're into executing the policies of those in authority above us.

"Reasoning, talk, negotiating, concessions" are what the guys that wear ties do in the Executive and Legistative branches and in the State Dept. The military isn't part of that framework and for good reason. We're one of the US Govt's instruments of power, plain and simple, and the exclusive instrument of power for exerting violence on a massive scale to accomplish US policy objectives.

We're not the economic instrument of power, nor the political or the diplomatic - we're the military and our role is narrow, well-defined, and non-negotiable within the confines of executing legal orders. Put another way, mliitary personnel are trained to kill enemy combatants in the course of accomplishing assigned missions. Period. They do it within the bounds of "the rules of war" or they are removed.

We don't get to "question" the logic, rationale, or thought-process behind our orders. That is not our job. That doesn't mean that those questions shouldn't be asked, indeed, they must be asked, but not by those that are wearing the uniform. That is neither the time nor place.

Raise the questions before you join or after you get out if you feel you must. I sure as helll have. I oppose most of this Bush-Cheney neocon goatfuk in Iraq and have personal disdain for both of them. My views changed significantly after I retired. Most retirees do, to some degree, after they get away from JP8 and the noise dies down in their heads. And especiailly, as in my case, when they have a son at VMI about to commission in the USAF. But while I was on active duty for almost 26 years it was, "Yes, Sir, Yes, Sir, three bags full!!" It has to be that way or the military simply cannot function.

If you guys can appreciate that little key distinction and remember it the next time you have what you believe to be a valid criticism about the strategic or even operational aspects of war, it will help to define the common ground here. Which is that we love our country, want her to have a successful national security policy, and want to see people living in freedom and democracy throughout the world as opposed to living under tyranny and terror.

Good men will disagree on how that's to be accomplished. But those "good men" will not include the voices of active duty military members. They are too busy saluting and moving out smartly to accomplish the mission. There is plenty of time later to question the dumb SOBs who do come up with some of our asinine policies...and I'm doing that now with relish!

 

[hoover]

Wow! This is quite the thread that has evolved since my original post. Just in case anyone has forgotten, the post that started this thread was asking about what options a military pilot has if he decides, for whatever reason, that he can no longer do his job in good conscience. The majority of responses were of the angry "screw-him," "hang the traitor," and "you- knew-what-you-doing-when-you-signed-up" variety.

I have done some more thinking about it, and I realized that a lot can change over the course of a typical military pilot commitment. That's 10 or 11 years a minimum. A lot can happen in 10 years. You can have 4 presidents in 10 years. You can have radical shifts in domestic, foreign, and military policy in 10 years.

Think about what has happened in the last 6 years. We went from a relatively peaceful and stable world to being stuck in another Vietnam style war, with no reason, no objective, no definition of victory, and no exit stratgy. That is not a reason I would join military.

People join the military to defend their country. I don't think they join for the opportunity to make a shambles out of another country. At least I hope not. And if there truly is a reason to do so, then I would hope our President and military leaders would make those reasons clear, and not hide behind a bunch of meaningless rhetoric and executive privilege.

The hypotheical officer in my orignal post was not someone trying to escape their commitment, but someone trying to fulfull their commitment to the military while holding true to their own conscience.
I could not drop bombs on innocent people. I could however fly planes of relief supplies to those people.

That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Birdstrike]

I could not drop bombs on innocent people. I could however fly planes of relief supplies to those people.That is the point I was trying to make.

And it's not the pilot's job to determine who the "innocent people" are. Others are charged with that responsibility and it is a vital one. But it's the pilot's job to deliver the ordnance on time and on target. Period. That's the point we're trying to make.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Again with the Cheney stuff. He really scares you doesn't he? I really don't understand what you mean. Some of you guys on the left really get weird over the Rove/Cheney thing, almost obsessive compulsive type behavior. Really odd, with no basis in fact. But, I guess when you get your news from the Daily Kos you start to believe all the Cheney/Rove/Halliburton rhetoric.

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

 

[C-17 Driver]

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

OK, we get it. You don't like Cheney. Sing it to the world, buy a bumper sticker. There is no way that we can sway your mind and there is no way we can sway yours.

Agree to disagree and move on. I doubt our kids will every hang out together so you don't have to worry about us military folks putting bad ideas in their heads.

Everyone's trying to get the last word.

[picture of man beating a dead horse]

[\picture of man beating a dead horse]


Word

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

OK, we get it. You don't like Cheney. Sing it to the world, buy a bumper sticker. There is no way that we can sway your mind and there is no way we can sway yours.

Agree to disagree and move on. I doubt our kids will every hang out together so you don't have to worry about us military folks putting bad ideas in their heads.

Everyone's trying to get the last word.

[picture of man beating a dead horse]

[\picture of man beating a dead horse]


Word

Actually, I'm not against an attempt to be persuaded differently. Calling me a c*@knozzle, for example, is not persuasive though, its childish. Try facts, evidence, etc.

First, I don't have kids, second, if I did, I would allow them to decide for themselves, as my parents did. And I would even let them play with your kids. Actually, I'll bet you and I could have a beer together and have a good time, even.

 

[NewmanF16]

Think about what has happened in the last 6 years. We went from a relatively peaceful and stable world to being stuck in another Vietnam style war, with no reason, no objective, no definition of victory, and no exit strategy. That is not a reason I would join military.

I probably should keep my dog out of this likely pointless fight, but I have a hard time letting emotion and ad hominem attacks get in the way of logic. Nothing like a little Hollywood propaganda to prop up your argument. Peaceful and stable is a matter of perspective. I was deployed 6 months out of the year throughout the 90's, and it wasn't building schools.

1. "Vietnam style war"--There are really only three things about this war that make it "Vietnam" like. 1. We are militarily kicking the crap out of the enemy (even more so than Vietnam). 2.There is a opposition political movement in this country, driven by the media, who's motivation is to lose the war (the good of the country be damned) and that is keeping the enemy fighters motivated to continue fighting. 3. The "insurgency" is being supported by neighboring countries and we are not prosecuting them for their support because of #2 (although a large portion of the fighters and their leadership are NOT Iraqis, unlike Vietnam).

There are dozens of ways this war is completely unlike Vietnam.

2. "No Reason"--Rid the Middle East of a mad dictator with WMD. Don't pull the "lie" crap out, everyone from the UN to Saddam himself thought he had more WMD than he did (and he did--most is likely in Syria).

3. "No Objective"--You mean besides establish a democratically elected stable government, that will not threaten it's neighbors? The hidden objective here is for Iraq to serve as a platform for spreading democracy through the Middle East. Prior to the Bathe party, Iraq was a democratic nation, and the most highly educated people in the ME. The problem with instability in the region is the lack of vibrant economies--unemployment and undereducation lead make the populace susceptible to radicalism. A further sub-objective is to anchor the fight in the middle east, and not here. Don't think it can't happen, you're fooling yourself. I'd much rather be killing them over there than here. This is working quite well, BTW.

4. "No definition of victory"--That would be meeting the objective, which you obviously didn't know, i.e. a stable Iraqi government that can survive without our direct (i.e. military) support.

5. "no exit strategy"--Do you mean no loser strategy? We exit when we achieve victory, and not one minute before. If you are not committed to that, you have no business going in in the first place. That is what torques me about politicians that voted FOR this when it benefited them, and are now looking for ways out. If the enemy smells weakness (and our press and dems reek of it everyday), they will stick it out. If they smelled our commitment, they would know it was lost and have gone home by now.

6. "That is not a reason I would join military"--Hmm, would there be a reason for you? Joining means self sacrifice and commitment...

 

[NewmanF16]

Cheney. As in pathological liar. Creates "facts" to suit his version of reality. Is unable to admit that he is ever wrong about anything. Contradicts himself time after time. Can't even decide which branch of the govt he is part of, or more correctly changes his mind when it conveniences him. Get it now?

How about specific examples, supported by facts? And seeing as how you are saying pathological, I'd like to see a pattern, and not just one.

It is easy and cheap to make ad hominem attacks, a little harder to support them with logic.