Conscientious Objector

[hoover]

Wow, this thread is up to 9 pages now. I am so proud!

Seriously though, I have been thinking on this a lot and I thought of something I had not yet considered: Could I kill another person? I'm not speaking within the realm of self-defense. In a dogfight it is either him or you; I could come to terms with that. But to take off with a load of bombs knowing that I will drop those bombs, and people I have never met and never had any problems with; people who have friends and families just like me, are going to die.

I came to the conclusion that I don't think I could live with that knowledge.

So I am curious to hear what other people think about it.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Well, there's your answer.

Personally, when I'm being called in by a JTAC who is taking fire, it's the same "them or me" mentality -- except it's some grunt on the ground whose life I'm choosing over the enemy one I'm taking.

I have never had a problem pressing the pickle button or pulling the trigger when that is the scenario.

 

[Deuce130]

Wow, this thread is up to 9 pages now. I am so proud!

Seriously though, I have been thinking on this a lot and I thought of something I had not yet considered: Could I kill another person? I'm not speaking within the realm of self-defense. In a dogfight it is either him or you; I could come to terms with that. But to take off with a load of bombs knowing that I will drop those bombs, and people I have never met and never had any problems with; people who have friends and families just like me, are going to die.

I came to the conclusion that I don't think I could live with that knowledge.

So I am curious to hear what other people think about it.

During college, we had a lengthy discussion in class one day about this type of thing. From 15,000+ while sitting in a cockpit, you're in a sterile environment. You don't hear the blast of your bombs, see the bodies flying, see the blood, hear the screams, or see any results of collateral damage. You hit the button, keep flying at the speed of heat, and watch the tape later. Maybe see something on CNN. I think it definitely helps to easier be able to do their job. I've also had some conversations with Gunship guys, who also have slightly different issues to deal with than the fighter/bomber guys. They loiter, observe, watch the target walk around for a bit, let him think he's free and clear, then tear him up into little pieces. If they let the thoughts of "this guy has a family, friends, etc" creep into their heads, it makes the job a little tougher. It's easier not to think about those things, or deal with them BEFORE you go into combat.

 

[Mud Eagle]

I've also had some conversations with Gunship guys, who also have slightly different issues to deal with than the fighter/bomber guys. They loiter, observe, watch the target walk around for a bit, let him think he's free and clear, then tear him up into little pieces.

That's pretty much how fighter CAS works these days, too. Loiter...watch...kill when told to.

I don't think it's as clinical as you seem to make it out to be. I've strafed groups of enemy in the open, then had the JTACs email my squadron photos of the ensuing carnage. It's not pretty, and none of us were wrapped up in any bloodlust for what we'd done...but it sure had an emotional impact.

I won't argue that it's on the same plane as a ground pounder, to whom it has to feel significantly more personal...but for the CAS fighters at least, it's not one-pass-haul-ass on a building or a vehicle where you never get close to whom you've killed or even KNOW if there was actually a person in there. Maybe for the B-1 and B-52 guys who are dropping JDAMs from 25K it's as you say, but it is still pretty personal for fast jet CAS.

 

[AlbieF15]

Dudes,

I've been on the ground...driving in an M-113 over some of the same guys your squadron commanders and OGs strafed, mavericked, bombed, CBU'd, and killed in 1991.

Here's what I got to say to every one of them: "Thank you!" Because YOU had to stomach to go and kill every day people you didn't know, and come back and do it day after day, when we advanced we rolled over a tired, terrified, and significantly attrited enemy. I am here today because that dude with the RPG got wacked one night by "Pita", "Porkchop", and "Fester" in their A-10 boresighting targets with his IIR maverick. The T-72 that had my name on it died one night F-111 drivers "plinked" it into oblivion. The enemy special forces that were going to hide and let us run past them and snipe and kill me from the rear died en mass due to some hard pounding the days prior to G-day by a string of bombs dropped by a B-52. Those Chinese made APCs with Saggers--wasted by some F-16s and Hornet pilots dropping CBU, then mopped up by some A-10 drivers from Alexandria who did their work by day.

Nobody in their right mind wakes up and says "hey--I hope I get to go kill hundreds of people today..." In fact, sometimes the decisions you make can be gut wrenching. But as a fighter pilot stuck in harm's way who had to roll across the battlefield against three divisions of the Iraqi Republican Guard, I thank God every day for the guys with the grit, courage, and determination to not only fly their sorties, hit their DMPIs, and hit their "targets"...but also to KILL the guys in front of us that we had to go through to get home. I had planned to get out of the Air Force as soon as I could and go chase airline dreams. One reason I didn't was my perspective on that war and war in general meant I had something to share with my Air Force bros--that what they do REALLY matters at times, and saves lives! I've been sharing those tales for the last 18 years, and the lessons are still valid today.

So to Scrappy, Deuce, Magnum, and all the rest of you iron dropping guys--thank you again for all you do. You were probably beatin' off in high school (or Jr High) while all that was goin' on, but I know you've been back over there doing the job since then, and will continue to go back if asked.

Its all killing. Sometimes killing is very, very important.