Conscientious Objector

[hoover]

What would happen if a military pilot decided he could not in good conscience participate in a conflict that was occurring somewhere in the world. I don't mean that he is a traitor, or that he gets up in the air over the target and refuses to drop his bombs; What I mean is that some conflict starts up that the U.S. is participating in, and this pilot decides that he cannot be a participant in it if his unit gets called up. What are his options? What would happen to him?

 

[HoursHore]

Leavenworth.

You are supposed to have that stuff sorted out before you take the oath.

Objector status has to be made before one gets drafted. there is actually a process to it.

Since there is no draft, there are no conscientous objectors. Its a volunteer force, and they don't expect people to volunteer for things that they don't agree with.

Some Army LT in hawaii is going thru this now.

 

[Draginass]

That officer would likely, and justifiably, be charged with direct disobedience to a lawful order and face a general court martial.

This isn't the Cub Scouts. It's deadly serious business.

 

[pilotyip]

In the whole Vietnam conflict one officer flight crewmember, a B-52 Nav out of Utapao, refused to fly a mission. In Dec 1972. He turned in his wings prior to being assigned another mission over Hanoi. He was given an administrative discharge under honorable conditions. During WWII, pilot would "Bomb Nuts" and say they could not fly another mission. In the RAF, they were branded with "Lack of Morale Fiber", drummed out of the RAF, and in some places actually imprisoned. The USAAF just spent them to a rest home, if they still could not fly. They were sent home to a ground job. Less than 1% of the USAAF pilots ever refused combat duty.

 

[Birdstrike]

Like everything else with military law these days, it's not as cut and dried as you might expect. In the Army anyway, you can claim that you "developed" these post-joining convictions after you signed-on. That's what I think I read that LT Wasabi (sp) is claiming. Who knows if it will succeed. He'll likely cut a deal and walk while we prosecute Marines making split-second decisions

 

[pkober]

Like everything else with military law these days, it's not as cut and dried as you might expect. In the Army anyway, you can claim that you "developed" these post-joining convictions after you signed-on. That's what I think I read that LT Wasabi (sp) is claiming. Who knows if it will succeed. He'll likely cut a deal and walk while we prosecute Marines making split-second decisions

Well said. He'll be a hero to the crazy left and probably write a book. Our Marines are chained to the floor while this guy will walk free.

 

[ultrarunner]

LT Wasabi (sp)....He'll likely cut a deal and walk while we prosecute Marines making split-second decisions

By the time this gig is over, all the Marines will be gone...KIA at some stupid road check point.

Just pull 'em out and NUKE the freaking place.

 

[HooverPilot]

Leavenworth would be appropriate. I say keep your word, you took an oath by your own choice, with no mental reservations. You need to suck it up until your current commitment is up, then walk away with a spine.

 

[stonewall]

That jackass is already a cult-hero of the left. Anyone who joins the military as an officer should be educated enough to what the commitment entails. People who suddenly develop certain "feelings" once medical/dental/grad school is paid for should be excoriated for any number of reasons.

Hypocrisy, opportunism, whatever. Hell, even if someone was GENUINELY a CO and STILL joined the military to pay for school, they should be scorned for the blatant opportunistic grab.

Bottom line: Any officer CO (or E for that matter) should get zero sympathy from anyone. They're either a coward or a hypocrite. Nowhere in between.

 

[JimNtexas]

What I mean is that some conflict starts up that the U.S. is participating in, and this pilot decides that he cannot be a participant in it if his unit gets called up. What are his options? What would happen to him?

Our hypothetical office should report to his commander, look the commander in the eye, and state that he will not follow an order to go to this war.

This officer should then plead guilty to disobeying a direct order and serve a term of imprisonment determined by a Courts Martial followed by a dishonorable discharge.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In WWII the bomber pilots were told.... 'you are going to be baby killers'..... at least they weren't American babies....right!

Right after 9/11 the press was going nuts over the military flying CAP over US cities.. they [the press] loved it. And it seemed the PR officers for these squadrons were right out of press school.... I like the fighter jock interviewed as he preflighted his jet..... "I wouldn't like it...but yeah, I'd shoot down a US airliner". Sh!t hot dude! only four more to go!

Then there was the tanker pilot who said flying airliners.... "pretty much bus driver kind of stuff. You take off, you land, it's all automated." As for tankers, "you won't get this kind of fun flying anywhere else."




It's black and white baby! Clear cut decisions with no grey! Rock on!

 

[hoover]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

 

[bssthound]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then.

Absolutely. It's a great way of life and I've met some of the most amazing people on this earth BUT there's a chance one will accidentally take out innocent cilivilans or not survive a mission. It's something we all understood when we joined and it became clearer as we progressed through training. No, it's not for everyone. If someone has qualms the best thing he/she can do is just stay out of the way.

To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

Depends on whether or not it's a legal order. Unlike what you've seen on war movies, or your best bud who "knows all about it" told you, etc. it's not really a case of one's commander telling you to "go bomb that building over there." Every target is chosen and every bomb is dropped for a reason. Believe it or not, the military goes to extensive measures to minimize collateral damage. I could be wrong as two boys makn' the beast with two backs, but I read the above post as insinuating military pilots "blindly" follow orders without understanding what's going on. That's shallow and uninformed at best. Use your intelligence and reasoning to figure out there might be a bit more to a military operation than you understand.

That being said I do honestly thank you for realizing that about yourself and not pursuing a slot. Miltary flying is not all movies and commercials and it definitely isn't for everyone.

 

[Draginass]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

I'm glad you didn't too. You're obviously too self-centered to function in a team in critically important situations. In 22 years of service, I never had to "blindly follow orders without knowing the rationale behind them." Also, in that time the topic of CO never entered into any kind of discussion in ANY of the squadrons or organizations I served in. Military members copping-out with CO claims is such an infinitesimally small issue in the military, that it doesn't even warrant attention.

You're idea of the military ethos is obviously garnered from TV and movies which bear almost zero resemblance to any sort of reality. The Hollywood dimwits can't even get the uniforms correct half the time, nor do they care about portraying a realistic image. It' all about selling tickets to other dimwits.

Military commanders rely heavily on the judgment and ethical decision-making by their subordinates.

Thank goodness there are much better men than you serving us courageously and selflessly. You can safely sit back and rely on their protection.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

 

[Deuce130]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

Good decision on your part. Oftentimes soldiers and airmen don't know the big picture, but the commanders giving orders do. When told to bomb that building over there, it's quite possible that US lives are at stake and are counting on your ability to do what you're told when told to do it. Combat is a fluid, dynamic, time critical situation. Commanders don't always have the seconds or minutes to explain themselves to the trigger puller if that guy needs his values or reason assuaged. You made the right call for you.

 

[Deuce130]

In WWII the bomber pilots were told.... 'you are going to be baby killers'..... at least they weren't American babies....right!

Right after 9/11 the press was going nuts over the military flying CAP over US cities.. they [the press] loved it. And it seemed the PR officers for these squadrons were right out of press school.... I like the fighter jock interviewed as he preflighted his jet..... "I wouldn't like it...but yeah, I'd shoot down a US airliner". Sh!t hot dude! only four more to go!

Then there was the tanker pilot who said flying airliners.... "pretty much bus driver kind of stuff. You take off, you land, it's all automated." As for tankers, "you won't get this kind of fun flying anywhere else."

This is why you're not in the military. I'd rather a "fighter jock" shoot down an airliner and not like it than allow that airliner to crash into the Twin Towers. 200 dead civilians rather than 2000. Don't think for one second that "fighter jock" wouldn't lose sleep at night or question his decision in the years that would follow. He certainly wouldn't be thinking "four more to go." Not surprising that someone completely ignorant of the military would spout such drivel, though. Didn't you say your father was a Navy pilot or something? Where did this contempt for military pilots come from? Stick to ALPA, Rez. You're not very good as a military analyst.

 

[pilotyip]

Thank You

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

I personally thank you for doing your country a service by not serving. It is called the service, because you serve and are suborinate to your commanders and their civilian oversite. It is about giving beyound yourself.

 

[C-17 Driver]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

http://www.psywarrior.com/sontay.html

I suggest you read about the Son Tay Raid by clicking on the above link. You really knocked over the lantern with that comment.

On Nov. 21, 1970, at approximately 11:18 p.m., the Son Tay raiders, accompanied by C-130Es called Combat Talons, departed Udorn, Thailand, for the final phase of their mission. At the same time, diversionary attacks were being launched all over the country. The U.S. Navy began a huge carrier strike against North Vietnam's port city of Haiphong. Ten Air Force F-4 Phantoms were flying MIG combat air patrol to screen the force from enemy fighters, while an F-105 Wild Weasel decoy force launched a raid on enemy surface-to-air missle sites. Five A-1 Skyraiders with the call sign "Peach One to Five", arrived on station to suppress ground fire around the enemy camp.

Rumor has it that some of these guys flying the diversionary missions didn't know why the purpose behind their missions was. What if they chose to not "blindly follow their orders?" There is a big picture out there that those at the tip of the spear do not see. Sometimes, you have to have faith in your leadership.

 

[Frisko]

I guess my decision not to join the Air Force was the right one then. I am not the sort of person who can blindly follow orders without understanding the rationale behind them. To know that in a given situation, I could be sent to jail for exercising my own intelligence, reasoning, and values that may have conflicted with orders is disheartening.

scoff

enjoy "exercising your intelligence, reasoning and values" from the comfort of your own home. My guess is you didn't make any "decision", but instead it was made for you. If you did in fact make a "decision" based off these issues then it obviously wasn't a very informed one.

 

[bssthound]

Frisko astutely stated:

My guess is you didn't make any "decision", but instead it was made for you.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! I think we have a winner!!